Twist-Resist alternative?

<snip Mike's q re: spoke twist tool>

Hey, Mike -

I got the cheapest replacement for that tool yet - a marker and your
spoke wrench - make a mark on your spoke one one side and you will know
if the spoke twisted.

Then, judicious application of the spoke wrench and minor application
of skull sweat will convert that knowledge into a spoke with zero
twist. If you know the starting relationship between the mark on the
spoke and the spoke wrench, and your desired final relationship,
getting the twist out shouldn't be a problem.

I have used this technique with all manner of spoke. Works easy, costs
nothing. Seems easier than trying to hold the spoke with one hand
while the other turns the spoke wrench...

'Course, if you really wanted to Cooter out a pair of Harbor Freight
grips....

D'ohBoy

weekly award will be shared by the above!!

D'ohBoy said:

<snip Mike's q re: spoke twist tool>

Hey, Mike -

I got the cheapest replacement for that tool yet - a marker and your
spoke wrench - make a mark on your spoke one one side and you will know
if the spoke twisted.

yes, and not only that. you can if the wheel is clamped in something
sturdy enough just deflect it by hand to take a bit of the tension off
the spoke while you give it a turn.

you should always make sure that all the twist is out of the spokes by
holding the built wheel vertically and pushing down on the rim. that
way the spokes won't start to ping and loosen the first time the wheel
is ridden

-Amit

That's great advice normally, but I am familiar with unspringing spokes
following adjustment. I need a tool to PREVENT the twist, not detect
it.

The problem is my brother-in-law has some AC Sprint 350 wheels I want
to retension. Aluminum nipples on 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes. They wind up
enough to cause damage before the threads release.

So, I need to prevent the twist.

Anyone?

-Mike

D'ohBoy said:

<snip Mike's q re: spoke twist tool>

Hey, Mike -

I got the cheapest replacement for that tool yet - a marker and your
spoke wrench - make a mark on your spoke one one side and you will know
if the spoke twisted.

Then, judicious application of the spoke wrench and minor application
of skull sweat will convert that knowledge into a spoke with zero
twist. If you know the starting relationship between the mark on the
spoke and the spoke wrench, and your desired final relationship,
getting the twist out shouldn't be a problem.

I have used this technique with all manner of spoke. Works easy, costs
nothing. Seems easier than trying to hold the spoke with one hand
while the other turns the spoke wrench...

'Course, if you really wanted to Cooter out a pair of Harbor Freight
grips....

D'ohBoy

Mike Reed said:

The problem is my brother-in-law has some AC Sprint 350 wheels I want
to retension. Aluminum nipples on 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes. They wind up
enough to cause damage before the threads release.

So, I need to prevent the twist.

Loosen all nipples, lubricate well, true wheel with dish too far to the
drive side, then tighten non-drive spokes to final tension. I built
some wheels with AE15s a few months ago (these are oval so should twist
as bad as anything) and there wasn't a problem. If you mark the spokes
so you don't accumulate twist, it should work ok... always bring to
spokes back to zero twist.

Mike Reed said:

That's great advice normally, but I am familiar with unspringing spokes
following adjustment. I need a tool to PREVENT the twist, not detect
it.

The problem is my brother-in-law has some AC Sprint 350 wheels I want
to retension. Aluminum nipples on 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes. They wind up
enough to cause damage before the threads release.

The rear is 32 hole, right? If so, as you tighten each nipple, try
squeezing the two adjacent spokes from the same side of the hub. This
deflects the rim and takes some tension off the spoke you are trying to
tighten. If the spokes have thread locker on them, it helps to swear
and throw things.

On the American Classic wheels with very few spokes, I've gotten by
with needle nose vice grips. However, it's a pain to do it that way,
and it's certainly not the most elegant solution (which is to hang the
pretty AC wheels on your wall and ride conventional wheels instead).

-Vee

Ron Ruff said:

Mike Reed said:

The problem is my brother-in-law has some AC Sprint 350 wheels I want
to retension. Aluminum nipples on 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes. They wind up
enough to cause damage before the threads release.

So, I need to prevent the twist.

Loosen all nipples, lubricate well, true wheel with dish too far to the
drive side, then tighten non-drive spokes to final tension. I built
some wheels with AE15s a few months ago (these are oval so should twist
as bad as anything) and there wasn't a problem. If you mark the spokes
so you don't accumulate twist, it should work ok... always bring to
spokes back to zero twist.

Cool idea. The rear would probably be better off startting it too far
to non-drive side. AC S350s are 2.0/1.8/2.0 on drive, 2.0/1.5/2.0
non-drive. Those drive side spokes are fairly stout (they take the
twist fine), but the non drive spokes are skinnier. The skinny spokes
are under less tension, so they don't give me as much trouble either.

The front wheel on the other hand... sheesh...

Bruce Lange said:

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking about smoothing and rounding the jaws of a cheap (Harbor
Freight: $2) pair of long-nose vise grips, then cutting a shallow
V-notch into one jaw, very near the tip. Then I'd round out the edges
of the V with a file.

The V should hold the spoke when it's pressed in by the opposite jaw.
All the rounding of edges should prevent any marring.

Thoughts?

Mike,

The way the Twist Resist holds spokes is unique, and is quite different from
what you intend to do. I can't think of a way to put it into words. Perhaps
someone else familiar with the tool can articulate it better than me. Look
at the tool up close if you get the chance.

It looks sort of like a cam lock from a sail boat to me. At least
that's how it holds the spoke. A cam lock is obviously not made for
preventing line twist 🙂

Is this about right?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem is my brother-in-law has some AC Sprint 350 wheels I want
to retension. Aluminum nipples on 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes. They wind up
enough to cause damage before the threads release.

So, I need to prevent the twist.

For those who are able to some money on bike tools, for thin spokes I highly
recommend using the Twist Resist in combination with the Hozan spoke wrench:

http://www.beyondbikes.com/BB/ItemDesc.asp?IC=QTL2435

The Hozan wrench is super cool. Unlike most spoke wrenches, it has a lever
arm about 3.5" (90mm) long. Equally nice is that it stays out of the way of
the spoke, allowing you to grab the spoke with the Twist Resist directly
above the nipple. This is also in marked contrast to most other spoke
wrenches.

It takes time to get used to building wheels this way, and even when you do,
its slower than usual. But it allows you to build up thin spoke wheels, to
high tensions, with relative ease.

Thanks.

Quoted message said:

Bruce Lange

Vee said:

Mike Reed said:

That's great advice normally, but I am familiar with unspringing spokes
following adjustment. I need a tool to PREVENT the twist, not detect
it.

The problem is my brother-in-law has some AC Sprint 350 wheels I want
to retension. Aluminum nipples on 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes. They wind up
enough to cause damage before the threads release.

The rear is 32 hole, right? If so, as you tighten each nipple, try
squeezing the two adjacent spokes from the same side of the hub.

Yep, 32 front and back. I'll try the squeezing and the deflecting in
the truing stand to see how those two work for me.

Quoted message said:

If the spokes have thread locker on them, it helps to swear
and throw things.

@#$#%!*&*#@

Quoted message said:

On the American Classic wheels with very few spokes, I've gotten by
with needle nose vice grips. However, it's a pain to do it that way,
and it's certainly not the most elegant solution (which is to hang the
pretty AC wheels on your wall and ride conventional wheels instead).

Yeah, these are going to sit in my BIL's garage once I get the parts
for his 32/36h Velocity Deep Vs and get them built up for him. He's
borrowing mine for now, since I'm 30 lbs. lighter than him (more
appropriate for the ACs). I won't be on them long term for sure...

-Mike

Quoted message said:

-Vee

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking about smoothing and rounding the jaws of a cheap (Harbor
Freight: $2) pair of long-nose vise grips, then cutting a shallow
V-notch into one jaw, very near the tip. Then I'd round out the edges
of the V with a file.

The V should hold the spoke when it's pressed in by the opposite jaw.
All the rounding of edges should prevent any marring.

Thoughts?

Mike,

The way the Twist Resist holds spokes is unique, and is quite different from
what you intend to do. I can't think of a way to put it into words. Perhaps
someone else familiar with the tool can articulate it better than me. Look
at the tool up close if you get the chance.

Quoted message said:

The problem is my brother-in-law has some AC Sprint 350 wheels I want
to retension. Aluminum nipples on 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes. They wind up
enough to cause damage before the threads release.

So, I need to prevent the twist.

For those who are able to some money on bike tools, for thin spokes I highly
recommend using the Twist Resist in combination with the Hozan spoke wrench:

http://www.beyondbikes.com/BB/ItemDesc.asp?IC=QTL2435

The Hozan wrench is super cool. Unlike most spoke wrenches, it has a lever
arm about 3.5" (90mm) long. Equally nice is that it stays out of the way of
the spoke, allowing you to grab the spoke with the Twist Resist directly
above the nipple. This is also in marked contrast to most other spoke
wrenches.

It takes time to get used to building wheels this way, and even when you do,
its slower than usual. But it allows you to build up thin spoke wheels, to
high tensions, with relative ease.

Bruce Lange

On 28 Mar 2006 12:40:43 -0800, "Mike Reed" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Has anyone rigged up a tool to do the same job as a Twist-Resist, but
for a lot less money?

A pair of Vice-grips and two small pieces of wood (to cushion the
jaws) is the setup that has been doing the job for me. No need for
custom mods with the wood splints added.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Mike Reed said:

Has anyone rigged up a tool to do the same job as a Twist-Resist,
but for a lot less money?

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking about smoothing and rounding the jaws of a cheap
(Harbor Freight: $2) pair of long-nose vise grips, then cutting a
shallow V-notch into one jaw, very near the tip. Then I'd round out
the edges of the V with a file.

Quoted message said:

The V should hold the spoke when it's pressed in by the opposite
jaw. All the rounding of edges should prevent any marring.

Quoted message said:

Thoughts?

Quoted message said:

Now that I think about it, I might try this on one of my many extra
pliers as a proof of concept. Maybe that would even be enough for
the final solution...

This comes up now and then and misses the essence of the problem.
First, don't use spokes thinner than 1.8-1.6mm diameter because these
have shown that when tight, their twisting torque exceeds yield. At
that torque, you cannot hold the spoke no matter what pliers you use,
even with sharp hardened micro-teeth.

Second, overshooting with the spoke wrench and backing off after each
adjustment (as explained in "the Bicycle Wheel"😉 is many times faster
than fumbling with pliers AND a spake wrench. However, the best way
to accomplish this with tension high enough to exceed torsional yield,
is to unload the spoke in question while making the adjustment.

Spokes can be unloaded in a machine with a radial pneumatic piston, or
manually by pulling the rim toward the side from which the spoke
approaches. This requires a solid truing stand. This method is also
far simpler, quicker, and effective than attempting to hold the
spoke... which doesn't work anyway. That holding the spoke doesn't
work can be shown by placing a tape "flag" on the spoke and watching
its position, or by putting a Sharpie black stripe on one side.

Jobst Brandt

Hello D'ohBoy

For 14g straight & 14/15 ga spokes I don't bother to mark the spokes, I
can get them w/in a few degrees by back lashing by feel, as confirmed
by almost no pinging when stress relieving. However 14/17 ga spokes are
another matter entirely. In order to achieve any tightening of the
spoke I have twisted the spoke past 90 deg & still had not gotten any
rotation of the nipple. I don't know how many degrees it takes to pass
elastic deformation & enter into plastic, but my gut tells me that this
is getting too close for comfort. Once that limit is passed I believe
the spoke damaged. Even if it's not damaged, I don't want to prove it
one way or the other. So I do not allow 17ga spokes to rotate @ all.

I do like Mike Reed's idea of using a modified channel loc or small
Vice Grip to hold the spoke. Part of the trick to successfully stopping
the rotation is to hold the spoke where it's almost touching the
nipple. This gives less distance between the restraint & nipple, plus
its being restrained at its 14ga/2.0mm diameter not @ its 17ga/1.5mm
diameter. This is a huge increase in the restraint leverage. Clamping
the spoke in this manor requires the use of a horizontal spoke wrench,
preferably a flair wrench, that won't interfere w/ the restraint
device. The Twist Resist is somewhat clumsy to use & allows for little
error in clamping the spoke. I believe a modified 4" or 6" channel lock
might work better. For reasons of convince & speed of use, it would be
far better that a small Vice Grip. That's assuming it would provide the
necessary clamping force. If not, them it's off to a Vice Grip.
Clamping & releasing a Vice Grip might be slower that A Twist Resist.
Or it maybe not :-)

John

Amit said:

yes, and not only that. you can if the wheel is clamped in something
sturdy enough just deflect it by hand to take a bit of the tension off
the spoke while you give it a turn.

Do you know if the VAR (Atomic?) or Hozan cast iron truing stand is
strong enough to do this? The ubiquitous TS 2 isn't stiff enough.

John

Bruce Lange said:

For those who are able to some money on bike tools, for thin spokes I highly
recommend using the Twist Resist in combination with the Hozan spoke >wrench:
http://www.beyondbikes.com/BB/ItemDesc.asp?IC=QTL2435
The Hozan wrench is super cool. Unlike most spoke wrenches, it has a lever
arm about 3.5" (90mm) long. Equally nice is that it stays out of the way of
the spoke, allowing you to grab the spoke with the Twist Resist directly
above the nipple. This is also in marked contrast to most other spoke
wrenches.
It takes time to get used to building wheels this way, and even when you do,
its slower than usual. But it allows you to build up thin spoke wheels, to
high tensions, with relative ease.

Yes, This is the combination I use, & was referring to above. But I'm
not convinced that the Twist Resist is better that the Channel Lock &/
or Vice grip ideas. Also My Hozan wrench in the horizontal position
using the flair wrench is difficult to engage over an aluminum nipple &
actually scrapes some of the color anodizing off. I've considered using
some Swiss files on it to smooth the ID out.

John

Werehatrack said:

A pair of Vice-grips and two small pieces of wood (to cushion the
jaws) is the setup that has been doing the job for me. No need for
custom mods with the wood splints added.

Plus it has the added advantage of not allowing the possibility of
contaminating Stainless Steel spokes w/ Delta Ferrite. Delta Ferrite is
another way of saying rust on Stainless Steel. Once I realized what I
was looking at, Carbon Steel having been induced into SS caused almost
all rust on SS, not by the SS just rusting all by it's self. Having
said all that, I've never noticed any rust on SS spokes.

John

john said:

Werehatrack said:

A pair of Vice-grips and two small pieces of wood (to cushion the
jaws) is the setup that has been doing the job for me. No need for
custom mods with the wood splints added.

Plus it has the added advantage of not allowing the possibility of
contaminating Stainless Steel spokes w/ Delta Ferrite. Delta Ferrite is
another way of saying rust on Stainless Steel. Once I realized what I
was looking at, Carbon Steel having been induced into SS caused almost
all rust on SS, not by the SS just rusting all by it's self. Having
said all that, I've never noticed any rust on SS spokes.

For me, the only legit use for the grips when turning a nipple is if
the thing's partly frozen; if the spoke is not silly-thin and the
interface is oiled (as it should be IME), the grip is irrelevant.
Sometimes applying a little heat helps more.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

D'ohBoy said:

<snip Mike's q re: spoke twist tool>

Hey, Mike -

I got the cheapest replacement for that tool yet - a marker and your
spoke wrench - make a mark on your spoke one one side and you will know
if the spoke twisted.

This tool mostly used for straight pull spokes, that rotate in the hub
when you try to true them.

Quoted message said:

Then, judicious application of the spoke wrench and minor application
of skull sweat will convert that knowledge into a spoke with zero
twist. If you know the starting relationship between the mark on the
spoke and the spoke wrench, and your desired final relationship,
getting the twist out shouldn't be a problem.

I have used this technique with all manner of spoke. Works easy, costs
nothing. Seems easier than trying to hold the spoke with one hand
while the other turns the spoke wrench...

'Course, if you really wanted to Cooter out a pair of Harbor Freight
grips....

D'ohBoy

John Drew said:

For 14g straight & 14/15 ga spokes I don't bother to mark the
spokes, I can get them w/in a few degrees by back lashing by feel,
as confirmed by almost no pinging when stress relieving. However
14/17 ga spokes are another matter entirely. In order to achieve any
tightening of the spoke I have twisted the spoke past 90 deg & still
had not gotten any rotation of the nipple. I don't know how many
degrees it takes to pass elastic deformation & enter into plastic,
but my gut tells me that this is getting too close for comfort. Once
that limit is passed I believe the spoke damaged. Even if it's not
damaged, I don't want to prove it one way or the other. So I do not
allow 17ga spokes to rotate @ all.

You can do better than that. However, I don't know what method you
use to "stress relieve" but manual stress relieving does not releaser
spoke twist unless you are doing that incorrectly. With a bit of
practice, spoke twist can be reduced to nearly zero by over shooting
and backing off with each spoke adjustment.

The true test of spoke twist is to coast on the bicycle while leaning
far to one side, standing. This is smooth and silent enough to reveal
any changes and is also the test that occurs naturally with time when
riding.

Quoted message said:

I do like Mike Reed's idea of using a modified channel loc or small
Vice Grip to hold the spoke. Part of the trick to successfully
stopping the rotation is to hold the spoke where it's almost
touching the nipple. This gives less distance between the restraint
& nipple, plus its being restrained at its 14ga/2.0mm diameter not @
its 17ga/1.5mm diameter. This is a huge increase in the restraint
leverage. Clamping the spoke in this manor requires the use of a
horizontal spoke wrench, preferably a flair wrench, that won't
interfere w/ the restraint device. The Twist Resist is somewhat
clumsy to use & allows for little error in clamping the spoke. I
believe a modified 4" or 6" channel lock might work better. For
reasons of convince & speed of use, it would be far better that a
small Vice Grip. That's assuming it would provide the necessary
clamping force. If not, them it's off to a Vice Grip. Clamping &
releasing a Vice Grip might be slower that A Twist Resist. Or it
maybe not :-)

I don't believe you can do that if you are getting spokes tight.

Jobst Brandt