Hill vs Flat training

As a New Yorker, I don't spend a lot of time doing hill training. Personally, I am not worry. Power is power. If I can generate 4w+ /kg on the flat for an hour, I can do the same thing on a hill. Around Jan, I and couple of my team mates headed out to Bear Mountain (total trip distance was 120 miles). I was able to reach to the summit in 26 minutes at 230w average power. I wasn't even trying to climb hard. Average grade was 7%. Mind you, we also hit couple of local climbs (short and steep) before actually doing the Bear Mountain climb. The only difference I can see with training on the flat vs on the hill is cadence. If you need to generate your FT power at somewhat a higher cadence on the flat, you may have problems trying to maintain your FT on a steep hill with the same cadence. I generate keep my cadence around 80+-.

SolarEnergy said:

Em I the only one to find VO2Max (L5) intervals done on flat course, fairly different that the same done in a 10% grade hill?

How can we explain this difference?

How do you share your L5 training time, Hill vs Flat?

Last year, I did much more L5 training on flat course (Formula 1 race track). My regiment mostly consist of 6min (1 lap) intervals, with 1 lap ez spin in between.

Later, I started doing 6min intervals on a 10% slope. Hmm.. not the same !

Conclusion, this year, I'll start with the slope work, and will probably spend more time climbing.

BlueJersey said:

As a New Yorker, I don't spend a lot of time doing hill training. Personally, I am not worry. Power is power. If I can generate 4w+ /kg on the flat for an hour, I can do the same thing on a hill.

That is what I thought. Last summer I think. And I wish you are right too. I will ride with a power meter this summer, so I guess I'll figure that out for myself.

BlueJersey said:

If you need to generate your FT power at somewhat a higher cadence on the flat, you may have problems trying to maintain your FT on a steep hill with the same cadence. I generate keep my cadence around 80+-.

This year, I intend on keeping this type of cadence too.

I have an other little question BJ, when doing your L5 training, what stops you from generating more power? Breathing? Legs? Other?

Legs. When I go hard, I rarely feel like running out of breath.

SolarEnergy said:

That is what I thought. Last summer I think. And I wish you are right too. I will ride with a power meter this summer, so I guess I'll figure that out for myself.

This year, I intend on keeping this type of cadence too.

I have an other little question BJ, when doing your L5 training, what stops you from generating more power? Breathing? Legs? Other?

For me, it's the air.

What does that mean in your opinion ?

Can one draw a simple conclusion from the limit he experiments in training L5 ?

SolarEnergy said:

Em I the only one to find VO2Max (L5) intervals done on flat course, fairly different that the same done in a 10% grade hill?

How can we explain this difference?

How do you share your L5 training time, Hill vs Flat?

Last year, I did much more L5 training on flat course (Formula 1 race track). My regiment mostly consist of 6min (1 lap) intervals, with 1 lap ez spin in between.

Later, I started doing 6min intervals on a 10% slope. Hmm.. not the same !

Conclusion, this year, I'll start with the slope work, and will probably spend more time climbing.

More than half of my intervals around threshold, and above, are done on a hill of about 3-5%. Less help from momentum in the pedaling. The speed on a hill like this feels more like the race efforts at these intensities when speeds are well above 25mph and there is more wind drag.

SolarEnergy said:

Em I the only one to find VO2Max (L5) intervals done on flat course, fairly different that the same done in a 10% grade hill?

Are you using a power meter?

Before I got a power meter I thought It was easier to go hard on hills. Since I got a power meter I find that interval intensities are the same if I do them on hills or flats.

WarrenG said:

More than half of my intervals around threshold, and above, are done on a hill of about 3-5%. Less help from momentum in the pedaling. The speed on a hill like this feels more like the race efforts at these intensities when speeds are well above 25mph and there is more wind drag.

Thanks Warren.

Do you feel that you'd be missing something if you were to do all interval work on flat course?

Those sprint intervals that you do in the hills, how long are they ?

When you do L5 work. Do you run out of leg before running out of air ?

Thanks.

mattv2099 said:

Are you using a power meter?

Before I got a power meter I thought It was easier to go hard on hills. Since I got a power meter I find that interval intensities are the same if I do them on hills or flats.

I am using a bad one at the moment, the one that came with my trainer.

I am about to order a powertap, it's just a matter of days now.

I remember having read comments from some riders here, that noticed it was easier to pull big power numbers while climbing. IOW, it'd be more difficult to end up with big NP or AP while doing high intensity work on flat.

You're saying that in your case, it doesn't matter that much?

SolarEnergy said:

When you do L5 work. Do you run out of leg before running out of air ?

I'm intrigued as to why you think there is a distinction...

Scott

SolarEnergy said:

Thanks Warren.

Do you feel that you'd be missing something if you were to do all interval work on flat course?

Yes. I think the strength requirement (and training effect) is better on climbs, but I do some on the flats and usually use cadences that are more like what I'd use for mass-start track events. Also consider that in the course of 35-45 races a year I get lots of higher intensity training on flats.

SolarEnergy said:

Those sprint intervals that you do in the hills, how long are they ?

15-30 seconds. Mostly 20 seconds.

SolarEnergy said:

When you do L5 work. Do you run out of leg before running out of air ?

Thanks.

At L5? I think it's about equal. I do work quite a bit on strength stuff and that helps during really hard efforts, and probably for doing one or two more intervals. If your legs are tired (muscular) then it's harder to do all of the quantity (with high quality) you want for the higher intensities.

SolarEnergy said:

I remember having read comments from some riders here, that noticed it was easier to pull big power numbers while climbing. IOW, it'd be more difficult to end up with big NP or AP while doing high intensity work on flat.

I've heard all variations; easier on hills, easier on flats, doesn't matter. Could it be a neuromuscular thing? Since joint angles are typically different when climbing and tt'ing on the flat. I have Ric in my head "neuromuscular benefits are specific to the speed and joint angle trained."

scotmart said:

I'm intrigued as to why you think there is a distinction...

Scott

Don't you think there is a distinction ?

You are probably wandering why I am interested by that distinction ?

At the moment, it's just an early curiosity. I don't think I can draw a conclusion, at least not me. But maybe YOU can ? 🙂

I am interested by any limitation. I find it particulary interesting that some be limited by *their legs* while some others are limited by *the O2*.

The way I see it so far, is that those who can easily perform intervals at 100% VO2Max power without even reaching their respiratory compensation point, are simply better trained.

Or are the others overtrained? Or undertrained? I don't know.

whoawhoa said:

I've heard all variations; easier on hills, easier on flats, doesn't matter. Could it be a neuromuscular thing? Since joint angles are typically different when climbing and tt'ing on the flat. I have Ric in my head "neuromuscular benefits are specific to the speed and joint angle trained."

Makes sens whoawhoa.

Are you systematic in your course choice when doing L5 training?

Also, I am curious. Do you run out of leg, or out of air while doing these?

Thanks a lot.

SolarEnergy said:

Don't you think there is a distinction ?

You are probably wandering why I am interested by that distinction ?

At the moment, it's just an early curiosity. I don't think I can draw a conclusion, at least not me. But maybe YOU can ? 🙂

I am interested by any limitation. I find it particulary interesting that some be limited by *their legs* while some others are limited by *the O2*.

The way I see it so far, is that those who can easily perform intervals at 100% VO2Max power without even reaching their respiratory compensation point, are simply better trained.

Or are the others overtrained? Or undertrained? I don't know.

I think it's bogus =).

If you are fatigued (which is a nebulous term that includes both actual physiologic conditions as well as psychological overlays) then you will be limited.

Assuming you aren't glycogen depleted, sleepy, depressed, or any number of other reasons to be 'fatigued', the limiting factor in high intensity efforts (lasting more than seconds) is always going to be oxygen delivery.

Assuming you don't have a pathological condition, noone is limited by their breathing ability. Respiratory capacity far outstrips the ability to utilize O2 (again assuming you have normal lungs). People's breathing response to exercise varies, and changes with training, but it is artificial to think there is some separation between 'breathing' and 'legs'. Your breathing responds to what your legs are doing.

You can start here, and use related links...

ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗

Scott

SolarEnergy said:

Makes sens whoawhoa.

Are you systematic in your course choice when doing L5 training?

I typically do them on the trainer or a flat circuit in a local park. Lately, I've been doing more of them uphill. However, I think to get the neuromuscular benefit you just have to use the joint angles/position, not necessarily do them at L5 power (or any power in particular).

SolarEnergy said:

I am using a bad one at the moment, the one that came with my trainer.

I am about to order a powertap, it's just a matter of days now.

I remember having read comments from some riders here, that noticed it was easier to pull big power numbers while climbing. IOW, it'd be more difficult to end up with big NP or AP while doing high intensity work on flat.

You're saying that in your case, it doesn't matter that much?

If I'm doing l4, l5, or l6 intervals I can do them on flats or hills.

However, I will admit that I can push myself to new limits on hills. I recently set a new 1 minute max wattage on a steep hill near my house. Outside of races I don't think I have ever put out that kind of wattage on the flats before.

I prefer to do l5 or l6 intervals on hills so that wind and downhills don't interrupt my interval. But if I've got a good flat road with not stops or tailwind I'll do them there.

scotmart said:

Assuming you don't have a pathological condition, noone is limited by their breathing ability. Respiratory capacity far outstrips the ability to utilize O2 (again assuming you have normal lungs). People's breathing response to exercise varies, and changes with training, but it is artificial to think there is some separation between 'breathing' and 'legs'. Your breathing responds to what your legs are doing.

You can start here, and use related links...

Scott. Thanks for the exposé.

There's a link between 'breathing' and 'legs'. That makes perfect sens. I didn't want to suggest otherwise by asking you my question or course.

Here. Two riders :

1) Never run out of breath while doing L5 intervals at 100% pVO2Max
2) Always run out of breath while doing L5 intervals at 100% pVO2Max

Rider 1 doesn't reach RCP at VO2Max? Or rider 1 is not disturb by such an accelerated ventillatory rate? Rider 1 breathe deeper (better control over his breathing)?

SolarEnergy said:

Scott. Thanks for the exposé.

There's a link between 'breathing' and 'legs'. That makes perfect sens. I didn't want to suggest otherwise by asking you my question or course.

Here. Two riders :

1) Never run out of breath while doing L5 intervals at 100% pVO2Max
2) Always run out of breath while doing L5 intervals at 100% pVO2Max

Rider 1 doesn't reach RCP at VO2Max? Or rider 1 is not disturb by such an accelerated ventillatory rate? Rider 1 breathe deeper (better control over his breathing)?

I think #1 and #2 are the same person, they just express what they are feeling using different terms.

Scott

SolarEnergy said:

Scott. Thanks for the exposé.

There's a link between 'breathing' and 'legs'. That makes perfect sens. I didn't want to suggest otherwise by asking you my question or course.

Here. Two riders :

1) Never run out of breath while doing L5 intervals at 100% pVO2Max
2) Always run out of breath while doing L5 intervals at 100% pVO2Max

Rider 1 doesn't reach RCP at VO2Max? Or rider 1 is not disturb by such an accelerated ventillatory rate? Rider 1 breathe deeper (better control over his breathing)?

Maybe there is a link to how fresh you might be.

example:

My last l4 2x20. First one I averaged 306 watts. My percieved exertion was extremely low. The set felt extremely easy. I felt like I could have had a conversation with a fellow biker at this pace. I did not noticably breathe hard whatsoever. Second one over the same course after 15 minutes in L1/L2 spinning I averaged 309 watts. I was breathing hard and my legs felt somewhat heavy. I could not have conversed with a fellow cyclist during this interval.

Why would the first one be so damn easy with not hard breathing while the second one felt hard and I breathed hard?