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Downsweep Deep

Started by 4precious · · Last activity · 4 posts · 1,417 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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14 September 2003
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14 September 2003
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4precious
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  1. I own quite a few swim volumes - Maglischo's "Swimming Fastest", Colwin's "Breakthrough Swimming",
    Freas' "Sprinting - a Coach's Challenge", and of course Laughlin's "Swimming Made Easy" (is any
    library complete without that volume 🙂

    I also have a gigabyte worth of swim clips on my PC thanks to Donal and Donald.

    But I gotta tell 'ya, my swim today convinced me that I don't even have the fundamentals down.

    I have been trying to do a high elbow catch. After all, avoiding a "dropped elbow" has got to be the
    stroke flaw most drummed into swimmer's heads. So I go for broke - upper-arm parallel to the water
    surface, 90 degree downsweep to catch. With my arm outstretched above my head, I had a mental image
    of just my forearm "folding" over and down. If you go to the link below and scroll down to the
    paragraphs numbered 6 and 7 you will see what I was shooting for. The swimmer in the foreground is
    Grant Hackett.

    svl.chCrawlAnalysis

    Well I was getting my butt kicked in the pool as usual today. So I "went to school" on three guys
    that were faster - one kind of faster, one definitely faster, and one way faster. And you know what?
    they don't have the insanely high elbow of Hackett. Not even close.

    Instead, they have a much deeper downsweep to catch, arm much straighter than what I was shooting
    for, elbow bent at a full 145 degrees. So I tried it, and it works great. It has the dramatic affect
    of making it much easier to use your body rotation to deliver force to your propelling arm. And the
    reason for that is simply that as your body rotates from one side to the other, the easiest force
    for it to deliver is UPWARD. So clearly, if your catch is much lower in the water, it's easier to
    use core body rotation to assist in the power phase of the pull.

    That's what the good swimmers in the pool were doing. I could almost feel the power being delivered
    from their bodies to the "paddle" (arm) as they rotated from a deep catch, and drove their arm up
    and back. And they would bend their elbow to about 90 degrees during the power phase to translate as
    much of the body assisted upward force into force going backwards. And then finally drive out hard
    past their hip.

    So that's how you do it!

    So if I'm right, and a deeper catch allows more assist from body rotation, then one would expect
    little assist during a real high elbow catch. And this is born out by the video. For example, both
    Tom Dolan and Grant Hackett have very high elbow catches. I mean their upper arm is nearly parallel
    to the surface, and their hand is moving basically backwards during the power phase of the pull. And
    they, in fact, do NOT rotate their body much to their dominant (right) side.

    So I looked back at Maglischo's book. And it's all there, but I didn't catch it, so to speak. The
    average hand position after downsweep and catch is 24 inches below the surface. That's two feet -
    pretty damn deep! I got two twelve inch rulers out and held them against my chest. My hand seemed
    pretty far away.

    I don't know what the elites are doing. Either the video is misleading because it's shot from the
    side, and not the front, or they are simply "elites", and immitate their technique at your own risk.

    I realize there are plently of potential pitfalls with a deep catch. For example, increased "Miller
    Torque" which will sink your legs, and more slow down in speed because it takes more time to get
    your hand deeper in the water. But as I said, there are plently of swimmers using this technique to
    good advantage in my Masters group. And it isn't because they're all a bunch of losers. Our swimming
    pool is deep, and so is the "gene pool" - some of these folks can really swim.

    Does this make sense to anybody?

    -Eric

  2. (4precious) said:

    I realize there are plently of potential pitfalls with a deep catch. For example, increased "Miller
    Torque" which will sink your legs, and more slow down in speed because it takes more time to get
    your hand deeper in the water.

    You shouldn't be pushing hard before the catch. Not only will it sink your legs, it can be bad for
    your elbow.

    Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

  3. Eric,

    You need to look more closely at the Hackett clips. Grant Hackett has swum the 1500 freestyle so
    much faster than any other human that, almost by definition, one has to conclude that he has the
    most efficient technique in the history of swimming (well, yes, he's 6'7", so maybe he does have a
    physical advantage, as well).

    Dr. Brent Rushall is my personal swimming science guru; but even he "misunderstands" Grant Hackett.
    For years, "Doc" Rushall has been criticizing Hackett for the following stroke "flaw:"

    Hackett has a "perfect" high elbow, in front of the head, catch with his right (breathing side) arm,
    but a relative straight arm catch (and even a borderline dropped elbow) on his left.

    But here's what's really going on:

    Hackett's right arm (and Evans' right arm) do exactly what a butterflyer's arms
    Ds...they enter well in front of the head, assume a textbood perfect high elbow catch position well
    in front of the head, and, with the head tilted to look forward, pull the head up the back side
    of the bow wave (coincident, in the case of Hackett and Evans) with the left arm recovery. When
    you look only at the right side of Hackett and Evans, they look exactly like a butterflyer.
    That's what you want to be doing, except that you don't need to be doing it with so much power
    that you actually lift your head up forward out of the water (a maneuver suitable only for the
    world's most highly-trained, expert swimmers or for swimming in the ocean, e.g.

    weisenthal.orgloping.mpg

    So what you want to do is to execute a perfect, in advance of the head, high elbow catch and pull
    with your strong side hand, just like Grant Hackett. You can do it; the best way to train this, in
    my opinion, is with paddling a short, pointy nosed surfboard, out through the swells off the
    Huntington "cliffs" (other, decidedly inferior, locations will do also).

    Now the weak sided (usually left) arm is another matter. Hackett uses a "downsweep deep" style on
    his weak side, just like your faster, definitely faster, and way faster swim buddies. This "works"
    on the weak (non-breathing) side, because you've got your body and head rotation (back to the
    neutral position) to help drive your arm, though a wide moment arc, backwards, overcoming what would
    otherwise be disadvantageous, mechanical advantage-wise. Because your body and head are driving
    downwards, from an up-rotated position, you are able to overcome your Miller torque. This is
    actually yet another advantage of the "loping" stroke (which is a flop/flop...flop/flop...flop/flop
    rhythm, as opposed to flop...flop...flop...flop), in that both right and left side power
    applications take place when the head and shoulder are tilted forward and/or rotated upwards above
    the water surface, thus increasing buoyant torque by raising the body in front of the center of
    buoyancy. This is impossible to achieve with a non-"loping" stroke.

    I (and Rushall) mentioned Hackett's "dropped elbow" on the "weak" (left) side. This occurs really as
    a result of a very smooth repositioning of his elbow to allow for the continuous rearward force
    application of Hackett's left hand and forearm. Hackett has a very pronounced and prolonged "rear
    quadrant" push back on the left. He drops his left elbow simply to position his forearm and hand for
    a more efficient push back.

    Larry Weisenthal

    Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

  4. [email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Good stuff.

    I'm very encouraged. I know that the fundamental style of the loping technique, namely, more time on
    the non-dominant pull than the dominant, is a good one. For a long time I emulated Tom Dolan in the
    water. Tom has some similar characteristics in freestyle as Hackett, and of course Dolan is one of
    the greatest distance freestylers the United States has ever produced.

    But Tom takes "downsweep deep" to the extreme. He rolls nearly entirely onto his left side, and
    keeps his left arm so straight that it looks like his elbow is locked out. He leaves it like this
    until it's almost directly beneath him, then bends it to 90 degrees for the power phase as he rolls
    his body back to horizontal. That style worked well for me - I had caught a few of the swimmers that
    were a little faster than me, and I was going to work on the bigger "fish" in the pool. But alas,
    that technique puts a lot of strain on the left shoulder, and mine was getting sore.

    So maybe the key is keep the style but not follow such an extreme practictioner.

    -Eric

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