Disc brakes and touring?

Either would work, but I bet you'd be more comfy on the Randonee, as a
cyclocross bike is usually overbuilt to handle the stresses of off
roading. It's a steel frame vs. the Element's alu.

Disc brakes are neato, just got my first set and love the gee whiz
factor, but I don't know if I'd tour on them. If your bike falls over
and you bend a disc, they're not the easiest thing to get in a small
town. Brake blocks, albeit chintzy ones, can be found in ever *mart the
world over.

Randonee all the way, you could certainly ride some fire roads on it as
well with the proper tires.

Alan Hoyle wrote:
---snip---

48-39 double on a 130 bcd? What were they thinking

---/snip---

Probably That 48-39 is relatively common for a competition bred CX
bike. While it may indeed be rack ready, this is supposed to be a race
bike first and foremost, to wit: (per REI's own marketspeak) "...it
doesn't get much more race-worthy than this."

SYJ

Alan Hoyle said:

I've been looking at touring bikes for commuting/touring and noticed
the REI Novara Element 'cross/touring bike <http://tinyurl.com/fcuno>
has disc brakes, which might be slightly nicer for in the wet.. If I
do a real, loaded tour, are disc brakes still effective?

Well, if they're effective at all, they'll still be effective.
there's a lot of variance in the characteristics of disc setups,
though. One thing is a definite plus if youring loaded in areas with
long grades; you don't have to worry about overheating the rims if you
ride the brakes down a long descent.

Quoted message said:

Do they get
in the way of panniers?

Depends on the panniers, obviously. Properly-designed ones are no
more likely to foul the disk brakes than they are to foul the wheel
itself. Any that got close enough to the brakes to present an issue
would, in my opinion, be in danger of causing problems anyway.

Quoted message said:

I know the crank on the Element is kinda
stupid (48-39 double on a 130 bcd? What were they thinking?)...

They were probably thinking that unless you're awfully well
conditioned, 48/12 is as tall of a gear as you're going to need,
particularly when travelling loaded. For eons the tendency has been
to stay with the 52 or 53 big sprocket as the rears have acquired
smaller high-gear tooth counts, but a 48/12 is actually a higher top
ratio than was used on my old Bridgestone tourer; 53/14.

Quoted message said:

I'm also looking at the Novara Randonee <http://tinyurl.com/fg4y4> and
a used Cannondale T800. (Yes, I know all of these bike have STI
shifters, but when I tried out the Trek 520 with the bar-end shifters,
I just hated the ergonomics. I'm aware of the advantages and
disadvantages of both systems.)

Slightly taller top gear at 48/11; nothing to dislike about what I saw
at first glance. The Randonee is probably the better choice of the
two REI bikes IMO.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

On 8 Mar 2006 20:05:05 GMT, Alan Hoyle <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've been looking at touring bikes for commuting/touring and noticed
the REI Novara Element 'cross/touring bike <http://tinyurl.com/fcuno>
has disc brakes, which might be slightly nicer for in the wet.. If I
do a real, loaded tour, are disc brakes still effective?

Quoted message said:

Well, if they're effective at all, they'll still be effective.
there's a lot of variance in the characteristics of disc setups,
though. One thing is a definite plus if youring loaded in areas with
long grades; you don't have to worry about overheating the rims if you
ride the brakes down a long descent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do they get
in the way of panniers?

Quoted message said:

Depends on the panniers, obviously. Properly-designed ones are no
more likely to foul the disk brakes than they are to foul the wheel
itself. Any that got close enough to the brakes to present an issue
would, in my opinion, be in danger of causing problems anyway.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know the crank on the Element is kinda
stupid (48-39 double on a 130 bcd? What were they thinking?)...

Quoted message said:

They were probably thinking that unless you're awfully well
conditioned, 48/12 is as tall of a gear as you're going to need,
particularly when travelling loaded. For eons the tendency has been
to stay with the 52 or 53 big sprocket as the rears have acquired
smaller high-gear tooth counts, but a 48/12 is actually a higher top
ratio than was used on my old Bridgestone tourer; 53/14.

My point about the 48-39, wasn't the high end, but the low. On a 130
bcd, you can't get a smaller chainring than the (rare) 38. 110 bcd
would make a lot more sense on a 'compact' double crank. Their higher
end cx model, the Rivet, has a 110 bcd compact 46-36.

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - [email hidden] - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
"I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG
Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate.

Alan Hoyle said:

I've been looking at touring bikes for commuting/touring and noticed
the REI Novara Element 'cross/touring bike <http://tinyurl.com/fcuno>
has disc brakes, which might be slightly nicer for in the wet.. If I
do a real, loaded tour, are disc brakes still effective? Do they get
in the way of panniers? I know the crank on the Element is kinda
stupid (48-39 double on a 130 bcd? What were they thinking?)...

I'm also looking at the Novara Randonee <http://tinyurl.com/fg4y4> and
a used Cannondale T800. (Yes, I know all of these bike have STI
shifters, but when I tried out the Trek 520 with the bar-end shifters,
I just hated the ergonomics. I'm aware of the advantages and
disadvantages of both systems.)

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - [email hidden] - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
"I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG
Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate.

Ride them with your largest touring load and see what you think. Take the longest grade up and down with your touring load and compare them.
I know many Randonee riders use them for commuting and cross country road touring. Even though I am not a big fan of aluminum touring bicycles, there certainly is something to be said for the stiffness of the T800.
Many disc brakes will over heat on long descents with a large rider and heavy load.
Any of them will work for commuting, but I would favor the Cannondale T800 as the best of the bunch for loaded touring. There is a "cyclingforum.com" just on the touring topic. you might find additional help there.

Alan Hoyle said:

Werehatrack said:

On 8 Mar 2006 20:05:05 GMT, Alan Hoyle <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've been looking at touring bikes for commuting/touring and noticed
the REI Novara Element 'cross/touring bike <http://tinyurl.com/fcuno>
has disc brakes, which might be slightly nicer for in the wet.. If I
do a real, loaded tour, are disc brakes still effective?

Quoted message said:

Well, if they're effective at all, they'll still be effective.
there's a lot of variance in the characteristics of disc setups,
though. One thing is a definite plus if youring loaded in areas with
long grades; you don't have to worry about overheating the rims if you
ride the brakes down a long descent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do they get
in the way of panniers?

Quoted message said:

Depends on the panniers, obviously. Properly-designed ones are no
more likely to foul the disk brakes than they are to foul the wheel
itself. Any that got close enough to the brakes to present an issue
would, in my opinion, be in danger of causing problems anyway.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know the crank on the Element is kinda
stupid (48-39 double on a 130 bcd? What were they thinking?)...

Quoted message said:

They were probably thinking that unless you're awfully well
conditioned, 48/12 is as tall of a gear as you're going to need,
particularly when travelling loaded. For eons the tendency has been
to stay with the 52 or 53 big sprocket as the rears have acquired
smaller high-gear tooth counts, but a 48/12 is actually a higher top
ratio than was used on my old Bridgestone tourer; 53/14.

My point about the 48-39, wasn't the high end, but the low. On a 130
bcd, you can't get a smaller chainring than the (rare) 38. 110 bcd
would make a lot more sense on a 'compact' double crank. Their higher
end cx model, the Rivet, has a 110 bcd compact 46-36.

Yeah, I was looking at the Novarras before I put together my Soma. I
couldn't understand the 48-39. I'm very happy with the 48-34 compact
Sugino I put on the Soma.

Greg
--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

Alan Hoyle said:

Werehatrack said:

On 8 Mar 2006 20:05:05 GMT, Alan Hoyle <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've been looking at touring bikes for commuting/touring and noticed
the REI Novara Element 'cross/touring bike <http://tinyurl.com/fcuno>
has disc brakes, which might be slightly nicer for in the wet.. If I
do a real, loaded tour, are disc brakes still effective?

Quoted message said:

Well, if they're effective at all, they'll still be effective.
there's a lot of variance in the characteristics of disc setups,
though. One thing is a definite plus if youring loaded in areas with
long grades; you don't have to worry about overheating the rims if you
ride the brakes down a long descent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do they get
in the way of panniers?

Quoted message said:

Depends on the panniers, obviously. Properly-designed ones are no
more likely to foul the disk brakes than they are to foul the wheel
itself. Any that got close enough to the brakes to present an issue
would, in my opinion, be in danger of causing problems anyway.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know the crank on the Element is kinda
stupid (48-39 double on a 130 bcd? What were they thinking?)...

Quoted message said:

They were probably thinking that unless you're awfully well
conditioned, 48/12 is as tall of a gear as you're going to need,
particularly when travelling loaded. For eons the tendency has been
to stay with the 52 or 53 big sprocket as the rears have acquired
smaller high-gear tooth counts, but a 48/12 is actually a higher top
ratio than was used on my old Bridgestone tourer; 53/14.

My point about the 48-39, wasn't the high end, but the low. On a 130
bcd, you can't get a smaller chainring than the (rare) 38. 110 bcd
would make a lot more sense on a 'compact' double crank. Their higher
end cx model, the Rivet, has a 110 bcd compact 46-36.

You posted a link to a cyclo cross bike. The ad copy on the link is
geared far more towards the cyclo cross use than anything else. I
think common chainrings used in cyclo cross are 42 single rings or
48-42, 44-38, 46-39. The low ring is sort of lower, its not meant for
climbing multi mile long mountains. In cyclo cross you climb hills by
either sprinting up them on the bike or sprinting up them on foot. Low
gears aren't used. The Rivet model has an even less useful gearing
range for actual cyuclo cross usage. To use it for what it claims to
be, a cyclo cross bike, you would put a 38 or 40 tooth inner ring on
it. Or throw both rings away and get a 42 ring and some of those side
plate things to keep the chain on.

If you want a touring bike, get a bike with a triple crankset, big cogs
in back, and the ability to bolt racks onto it to carry panniers. A
compact double crankset does not allow low enough gears for loaded
touring for the vast majority of people. Except on the flats.

Quoted message said:

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - [email hidden] - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
"I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG
Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate.

Alan Hoyle said:

I've been looking at touring bikes for commuting/touring and noticed
the REI Novara Element 'cross/touring bike <http://tinyurl.com/fcuno>
has disc brakes, which might be slightly nicer for in the wet.. If I
do a real, loaded tour, are disc brakes still effective? Do they get
in the way of panniers? I know the crank on the Element is kinda
stupid (48-39 double on a 130 bcd? What were they thinking?)...

I'm also looking at the Novara Randonee <http://tinyurl.com/fg4y4> and
a used Cannondale T800. (Yes, I know all of these bike have STI
shifters, but when I tried out the Trek 520 with the bar-end shifters,
I just hated the ergonomics. I'm aware of the advantages and
disadvantages of both systems.)

-alan

Well I did a 1,200 mile tour on a bike with disc brakes and had no
problems or complaints with regards to the brakes. The biggest issue I
had was rear rack fitting, I just made a bracket to push the supporting
leg of the rack out past the brake hardware. It pushed the pannier out a
bit but not enough to cause any problems.

Ken
--
You never have the wind with you - either it is against you or you're
having a good day. ~Daniel Behrman, The Man Who Loved Bicycles

Homepage: http://www.bikesandmoreonline.com/

daveornee said:

Alan Hoyle said:

I've been looking at touring bikes for commuting/touring and noticed
the REI Novara Element 'cross/touring bike <http://tinyurl.com/fcuno>
has disc brakes, which might be slightly nicer for in the wet.. If I
do a real, loaded tour, are disc brakes still effective? Do they get
in the way of panniers? I know the crank on the Element is kinda
stupid (48-39 double on a 130 bcd? What were they thinking?)...

I'm also looking at the Novara Randonee <http://tinyurl.com/fg4y4> and
a used Cannondale T800. (Yes, I know all of these bike have STI
shifters, but when I tried out the Trek 520 with the bar-end shifters,
I just hated the ergonomics. I'm aware of the advantages and
disadvantages of both systems.)

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - [email hidden] - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
"I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG
Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate.

Ride them with your largest touring load and see what you think. Take
the longest grade up and down with your touring load and compare them.

I know many Randonee riders use them for commuting and cross country
road touring. Even though I am not a big fan of aluminum touring
bicycles, there certainly is something to be said for the stiffness of
the T800.
Many disc brakes will over heat on long descents with a large rider and
heavy load.
Any of them will work for commuting, but I would favor the Cannondale
T800 as the best of the bunch for loaded touring. There is a
"cyclingforum.com" just on the touring topic. you might find
additional help there.

What indicates overheating -- brake fade? I ride a cross bike with Avid
mechanical disks for commuting and general riding during the winter. I
am 215lbs, which is about like heavy loaded touring for a guy who is
170lbs. I have never had brake fade, and I ride down some pretty steep
and long stuff.

On the other hand, if I were getting into serious touring, I would get
a bike with standard brakes (calipers or cantilevers). I would not
want to go through the hassle of trying to find a disk brake wheel in
the event of a wheel disaster. -- Jay Beattie.

Ken C. M. said:

Well I did a 1,200 mile tour on a bike with disc brakes and had no
problems or complaints with regards to the brakes. The biggest issue I
had was rear rack fitting, I just made a bracket to push the supporting
leg of the rack out past the brake hardware. It pushed the pannier out a
bit but not enough to cause any problems.

I just got a disc equipped ride, as I mentioned in a previous post, and
indeed at first the mounting of a rear rack seemed daunting, but it
appears that there are quite a few models of racks that are disc
specific if you dig deep enough. Certainly a standard rack can work
too, with some creativity. I'm going to see if the local REI has this
model, as it looks pretty good and the price is right:

http://tinyurl.com/gc67v

I've only put a hundred miles or so on the disc bike so far, but even
though they're lowly deore cable models, once dialed in and pads have
had a few miles to bed--I can't say I'd want anything else on an all
weather city bike. Only drawback is the "steal me" factor.

One thing I'm curious about is pad life. Only thing I've heard about
that is from mtb'ers--and they encounter very different conditions than
commuters. I figure if I put three years on a set of Eagle Claws for
some front cantis, I should get fairly extraordinary pad life from
discs.

In article <[email hidden]>,

landotter () said:

One thing I'm curious about is pad life. Only thing I've heard about
that is from mtb'ers--and they encounter very different conditions than
commuters. I figure if I put three years on a set of Eagle Claws for
some front cantis, I should get fairly extraordinary pad life from
discs.

The answer is: it depends :-) I get about 1,500 km out of the front
pads in the Hope M4 on the front of my #1 commuting bike, but the trike
has over 6,000 km on the original pads in its Hope Minis.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Apparently Guy has now got a Brompton. I'd never have guessed.

landotter said:

Ken C. M. said:

Well I did a 1,200 mile tour on a bike with disc brakes and had no
problems or complaints with regards to the brakes. The biggest issue I
had was rear rack fitting, I just made a bracket to push the supporting
leg of the rack out past the brake hardware. It pushed the pannier out a
bit but not enough to cause any problems.

I just got a disc equipped ride, as I mentioned in a previous post, and
indeed at first the mounting of a rear rack seemed daunting, but it
appears that there are quite a few models of racks that are disc
specific if you dig deep enough. Certainly a standard rack can work
too, with some creativity. I'm going to see if the local REI has this
model, as it looks pretty good and the price is right:

http://tinyurl.com/gc67v

I've only put a hundred miles or so on the disc bike so far, but even
though they're lowly deore cable models, once dialed in and pads have
had a few miles to bed--I can't say I'd want anything else on an all
weather city bike. Only drawback is the "steal me" factor.

One thing I'm curious about is pad life. Only thing I've heard about
that is from mtb'ers--and they encounter very different conditions than
commuters. I figure if I put three years on a set of Eagle Claws for
some front cantis, I should get fairly extraordinary pad life from
discs.

Pad life - Well I have over 3,000 on the pads on that tour bike, which
is now relegated as a commuter. And no complaints from the pads or
rotors yet.

Ken
--
You never have the wind with you - either it is against you or you're
having a good day. ~Daniel Behrman, The Man Who Loved Bicycles

Homepage: http://www.bikesandmoreonline.com/

Ken C. M. said:

Pad life - Well I have over 3,000 on the pads on that tour bike, which
is now relegated as a commuter. And no complaints from the pads or
rotors yet.

Sounds good. I'm hoping for 10K miles. Sounds crazy, but if my
motorcycle can get 30K on the fronts and the VW can get 50K, then my
bike discs better get 10K. The Koolstop Continentals on my single speed
have close to 10K--so it's not simple wishful thinking. 😄

Off roading with the grinding compounds of grit you encounter are
certainly a completely different situation of course. :P

depending on your disposable income level - consider a used bike
rebuild
get the tools and necessary experience
the aftermarket parts - wheels mfg. axles, wahtever saddle/pedals - a
steel CR! 4-1 over Al alloy
from discount internet during january-march
for less than a new bike!
and no chrome savings on deore with seals, no chrome cassettes maybe a
7 with an aftremarket extra gear for your route - a 34 or double inside
cog
and 8 speed prices with 8 speed durability
check the 8 speed prices at 2 sets per year or over 5 years
go to guatemala city a week!
have a nice day!

Quoted message said:

depending on your disposable income level - consider a used bike
rebuild
get the tools and necessary experience
the aftermarket parts - wheels mfg. axles, wahtever saddle/pedals - a
steel CR! 4-1 over Al alloy
from discount internet during january-march
for less than a new bike!
and no chrome savings on deore with seals, no chrome cassettes maybe a
7 with an aftremarket extra gear for your route - a 34 or double inside
cog
and 8 speed prices with 8 speed durability
check the 8 speed prices at 2 sets per year or over 5 years
go to guatemala city a week!
have a nice day!

Did you reply to the wrong article?

FWIW, I got an $800 ride recently for $500 as it indeed is that time of
year when deals can be found. Eight speed with Tiagra, should prove to
be fairly durable.

landotter said:

Quoted message said:

depending on your disposable income level - consider a used bike
rebuild
get the tools and necessary experience
the aftermarket parts - wheels mfg. axles, wahtever saddle/pedals - a
steel CR! 4-1 over Al alloy
from discount internet during january-march
for less than a new bike!
and no chrome savings on deore with seals, no chrome cassettes maybe a
7 with an aftremarket extra gear for your route - a 34 or double inside
cog
and 8 speed prices with 8 speed durability
check the 8 speed prices at 2 sets per year or over 5 years
go to guatemala city a week!
have a nice day!

Did you reply to the wrong article?

FWIW, I got an $800 ride recently for $500 as it indeed is that time of
year when deals can be found. Eight speed with Tiagra, should prove to
be fairly durable.

Yeah that is a good deal. And yes it can be a good time to buy a bike.
But I think it is a regional thing, I don't think here in Florida there
is too much of an off season, as a result deals aren't as likely to be had.

Ken
--
You never have the wind with you - either it is against you or you're
having a good day. ~Daniel Behrman, The Man Who Loved Bicycles

Homepage: http://www.bikesandmoreonline.com/

Ken C. M. wrote:
I wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I got an $800 ride recently for $500 as it indeed is that time of
year when deals can be found. Eight speed with Tiagra, should prove to
be fairly durable.

Yeah that is a good deal. And yes it can be a good time to buy a bike.
But I think it is a regional thing, I don't think here in Florida there
is too much of an off season, as a result deals aren't as likely to be had.

Got mine boxed via Fleabay from Canada, so definitely a season issue.
Bikes deals can be great in the snow belt from Xmas to about this time
of year. For all of your sun, I guess there are a few drawbacks. :P

Here she is, just needs a rack:

http://static.flickr.com/37/109807304_c7d39aea96_o.jpg

Best $500 bike I ever owned, I'm especially liking the brakes and the
WTB Slickasaurus tires. Good stuff. Even that cushy WTB Speed V saddle
is fantastic for scooting about town wearing jeans. Plush, but not
something I'd tour on. :P

landotter said:

Ken C. M. wrote:
I wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I got an $800 ride recently for $500 as it indeed is that time of
year when deals can be found. Eight speed with Tiagra, should prove to
be fairly durable.

Yeah that is a good deal. And yes it can be a good time to buy a bike.
But I think it is a regional thing, I don't think here in Florida there
is too much of an off season, as a result deals aren't as likely to be had.

Got mine boxed via Fleabay from Canada, so definitely a season issue.
Bikes deals can be great in the snow belt from Xmas to about this time
of year. For all of your sun, I guess there are a few drawbacks. :P

Here she is, just needs a rack:

http://static.flickr.com/37/109807304_c7d39aea96_o.jpg

Best $500 bike I ever owned, I'm especially liking the brakes and the
WTB Slickasaurus tires. Good stuff. Even that cushy WTB Speed V saddle
is fantastic for scooting about town wearing jeans. Plush, but not
something I'd tour on. :P

Nice looking ride. Are those Alex rims? Can't really tell from the
picture, but the stickers are colored like the ones on my ACE-18's.

Ken
--
You never have the wind with you - either it is against you or you're
having a good day. ~Daniel Behrman, The Man Who Loved Bicycles

Homepage: http://www.bikesandmoreonline.com/

Ken C. M. said:

landotter said:

Ken C. M. wrote:
I wrote

Quoted message said:

>FWIW, I got an $800 ride recently for $500 as it indeed is that time of
>year when deals can be found. Eight speed with Tiagra, should prove to
>be fairly durable.
>

Yeah that is a good deal. And yes it can be a good time to buy a bike.
But I think it is a regional thing, I don't think here in Florida there
is too much of an off season, as a result deals aren't as likely to be had.

Got mine boxed via Fleabay from Canada, so definitely a season issue.
Bikes deals can be great in the snow belt from Xmas to about this time
of year. For all of your sun, I guess there are a few drawbacks. :P

Here she is, just needs a rack:

http://static.flickr.com/37/109807304_c7d39aea96_o.jpg

Best $500 bike I ever owned, I'm especially liking the brakes and the
WTB Slickasaurus tires. Good stuff. Even that cushy WTB Speed V saddle
is fantastic for scooting about town wearing jeans. Plush, but not
something I'd tour on. :P

Nice looking ride. Are those Alex rims? Can't really tell from the
picture, but the stickers are colored like the ones on my ACE-18's.

thanx

The rims are TD-17s, which are disc specific. No machined sidewalls.
Eyelets. Looks pretty slick. They have this neat feature, as they don't
need a brake track, where the rim flares out a bit where the tire bit
is so that it's snakebite proof. Or so they say. Cheapest Alex disc
rims, but the cross section inspires me to think they'll hold up well.
http://www.alexrims.com/rims/ct_td17.htm

I've had great luck with Alex stuff before, and just cracked a MA3
eyelet a few months ago, so was glad to see something non Mavic specced
on this ride, as I'm still a bit bitter. :P

The bike's a hoot to ride, it's got several personalities. It's an
overachieving beer fetcher, a great city commuter, a high zoot tootler,
a decent bike path bike, and a wannabe 29er/cxbike. Of course it has
fenders, a front dynamo, and a bell. If it's not 30 pounds, it isn't a
commuter. 😄