Training to kick

Paul Gormley said:

No disrespect people but the replies I have received have been mostly anecdotal. I'd like to know
if there is there any physiological reason why we can't train to kick harder or faster in the same
way that we train other areas of the body/muscle groups to improve our speed or endurance.

I don't know, but I have another anecdote in that my breaststroke whip kick is always best right
after a strong summer of cycling and running.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Donal Fagan at Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com said:

Paul Gormley said:

No disrespect people but the replies I have received have been mostly anecdotal. I'd like to know
if there is there any physiological reason why we can't train to kick harder or faster in the
same way that we train other areas of the body/muscle groups to improve our speed or endurance.

I don't know, but I have another anecdote in that my breaststroke whip kick is always best right
after a strong summer of cycling and running.

Yup. I don't know either, but I can attest that both my flutter kick and breaststroke kick are much,
much stronger as a result of marathon training. In my case, stronger leg muscles outside the pool
*did* translate directly to stronger, faster kicks-- which seems utterly sensible, even if I don't
understand the specific biomechanics. :-)

--
Shalom, Peace, Salaam

George Grattan

I'd like to add a few anecdotal comments from my own experience, both as a swimmer and a coach,
about "training to kick".

First as a swimmer - One of my most vivid youthful memories is from a meet I swam in as a 16 year
old. My best time in the 200 free at the time (1968) was 2:09+ which was considered OK but not
great. I managed to final in that senior level meet with a 2:01+ effort and the state record holder
came up to me after prelims and congratulated me on my swim (I was in one of the first heats so I
presume he was waiting to swim and watching the early heats to see who might jump from those heats
into finals). I felt great. I was in awe that he had singled me out for comment. Then he said, "I
have just one question . . . why don't you kick when you swim?" I was never a great kicker,
prefering, apparently, to drag my legs behind me as I swam up and down the pool. His question left
me speechless. I don't remember my coach ever telling me specifically to kick more (although he
probably did, I was pretty good at tuning him out). During finals that night I kicked more and swam
a 1:53+ and thought I had stumbled onto the Secret of Life. For the next year, until I graduated
from high school, I kicked as much as I could in practice and at meets. I never swam any faster. The
impression I was left with after every practice session was how tired kicking that much made me. I
figured I either wasn't a very talented swimmer or was never really "in shape".

Jump ahead to college where I swam for an NAIA school. For one brief moment during my 3 years of
collegiate swimming (our program was dropped halfway through my junior year) I entered a realm which
I'd never even dreamed existed for me. It was at practice and lasted for about two hours. I became
an "effortless" swimmer. I remember swimming fluidly up and down the pool without ever feeling
tired. The other swimmers on the team had to just get out of my way. I was always 3rd in my lane and
I LED the lane that morning. I was a decent college swimmer who trained with some very good college
swimmers (one qualified for the Trials in '72). That day I simply stopped trying so hard and the
result was that somehow I became one with the water. As I recall, this wasn't a conscious decision
to become a better swimmer; I was just tired and hung over and thought I'd take that practice off,
choosing to cruise instead of push myself. Not a single teammate could touch me. I felt like a god.
I was sliding through the water instead of crushing the water with powerful blows from my arms. I
felt like I was being pulled along by some unseen force. The next day I thought "I'm gonna dedicate
myself for the rest of the year. How good can I REALLY be if I take this new found ability and push
myself?" It was ugly, pounding up and down the lane, thoroughly trashing myself. Boy was I confused.
I never swam any faster at meets and I never found that effortless state of "flow" again. At least
not in college. When our program was dropped I was thankful. I just couldn't go through another
disappointing year, putting in the effort and having nothing to show for it.

As a coach I think I know what happened in both instances. As a 16 year old I had good upper body
strength and had developed the habit of muscling my way up and down the pool. I undoubtedly held my
legs nearly straight (if I was lucky) with a great deal of tension so they wouldn't move back and
forth as I reached forward with my arms and pulled backward as hard as I could. My feet were
probably always about 18 inches below the surface of the water. During the final of that 200 free I
kicked just enough (I certainly wasn't a strong enough kicker to really hinder my forward progress)
to become balanced and all the power I'd been applying to the water for years finally drove me
forward. That day I thought kicking was the secret and now I know finding my balance was the secret.
Had I only known then as a swimmer what I know now as a coach, I coulda been a contenda.

During that college practice where I entered a state of flow, I stopped trying hard, relaxed, and,
oddly enough, dropped my gaze to look down at the bottom of the pool for a change. I was tired of
holding my head up to look at the guy's feet in front of me. I just didn't care any longer to swim
the way my coach was yelling at me to swim. The combination of relaxing and looking down momentarily
changed my mind-body relationship. Again, all the power I had at my disposal sent me forward in a
way that was mind-blowing. I didn't need to be MORE POWERFUL or build BETTER ENDURANCE to take a
quantum leap as a swimmer. I needed to make a small technical change and relax. Again, I had no idea
what had happened so I couldn't reproduce it. Had I understood what was going on, again, I coulda
been a contenda. Live and learn.

So, what part of my athletes' practices do we devote to straight kicking? Well, about once or twice
a month we do a 400 yd "social kick", meaning they're required to kick 2 and 3 abreast in a lane and
talk while they kick lazily up and down the pool. They use boards as pillows and rest on them while
they kick. This is a great use for a kick board in my opinion. About once a week we'll do a set of
25 yd sprint underwater dolphin kicks (where they can kick on their stomach or their back). I think
that's it. Oh, and our breaststrokers will specifically kick 1000 yards of breaststroke kick (either
on their stomach or their back) about once a week. That's about it. I emphasize streamlining and
kicking off every wall in every practice session. That's one of our highest priorities. Our long
axis swimmers kick on their sides a fair amount of the time as part of one of our primary drills.
Our swimmers ALREADY kick all the time because they're swimming constantly in practice. I just don't
stick them on a kick board and make them kick straight up and down very often. Just in social
situations.

I'm very focused on helping my swimmers learn to relax more and concentrate on one thing at a time.
That's how I was trained in the martial arts and I saw incredible results. "Focus and relax". That's
what I remind them to do every day.

As a coach who was incredibly impressed with Bill Boomer the first time I heard him talk (1993), I'm
very interested in helping my swimmers find their balance.

Based on my experience as a martial artist and all the times I've listened to and spoken with Bill,
devoting a lot of time to straight kick sets just doesn't seem worthwhile. And I know I'm bucking
the status quo here. A lot of my coaching buddies have their kids kicking huge sets on a daily
basis. I just can't see it.

Do these coaches' swimmers beat my swimmers in meets? Sometimes. Do I think its because they do so
much kicking in practice? No. Can I prove its NOT because they kick more than we do? No. None of my
coaching buddies ever took one of their swimmers to the Trials. I have. And that swimmer qualified
in the 50 free (he came into the meet seeded 18th out of 100 swimmers) and just missed qualifying
for the Trials in the 100 free (by 2/100ths of a second). I worked with him for 10 years, from the
age of 12 until he was 22. I guess that gives me some credibility. I certainly won't claim to be any
great genius. And I know how it is with coaching - what have you done lately? So I'm always thinking
about how I can coach better today than I coached yesterday. Or last year. Or ten years ago. Or
twenty years ago. So far, I haven't changed my mind on how to train my swimmers to kick and everyone
I train swims faster every year.

For what its worth - and its anecdotal so it isn't worth much.

Regards,

Scott

(Scott Lemley) said:

Jump ahead to college ... As I recall, this wasn't a conscious decision to become a better swimmer;
I was just tired and hung over and thought I'd take that practice off, choosing to cruise instead
of push myself. .... I felt like I was being pulled along by some unseen force.

I've had this same sort of experience and heard others tell of it, but in tennis, not swimming and
generally WRT to the serve. Guys will feel lousy and go easy on their serve only to find that they
are serving their opponents off the court. Simply by letting the kinetic chain happen, without
muscling the ball, they get great velocity.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

(Totalswimm) said:

Quoted message said:

For what its worth - and its anecdotal so it isn't worth much.

I disagree. Being a coach, I know that nothing touches the value of experience, particularly
experience that combines swimming, teaching and coaching -- particularly when keenly observed, as I
know is true of Scott. I have never seen a piece of research that taught me a fraction of what I've
learned at -- and in -- the pool. Terry

I read an interesting article on scientific study and athletics. (Sorry can't remember
where) Seems that a good portion of the science applied to athletics is applied in a fashion
to try and figure out what is working rather than trying to predict what will work. In most
scientific endevours the goal is to find out what works or provide guidance to make
something work. In the case of the human body, it seems, there are so many different
variable that current science cannot take into account all of the possible variations. So in
many cases sciences are rendered to a realm of trying to figure out why something worked
rather than what will work. In most cases instead of the athlete's following science,
science is following those few naturally gifted athletes that excel and try to figure out
what they are doing to become succesfull. For the most part coaches and athletes are on the
leading edge of science in athletics rather than scientists. With literally millions of
amatuer athletes and many elite athletes, science cannot possibly match the experimentaion
that goes on daily in everyones training logs. Being a complete numbers nut this is very
difficult to accept. I'm all for experimenting in the labratory and trying to pinpoint
exactly the cause and effect relationships etc. However somethings are still scientifically
out of our grasp. Until such a date that we can explain soundly many aspects that are
currently speculation and or theory the best science may be taking place by non scientist,
coaches and sports alchemists.

~Matt

(Totalswimm) said:

But at any speed over 5 feet per second (1:00 per 100 yards) the kick contributed nothing and, in
some instances, actually increased drag!

That would be about 1.5 m/sec.

Quoted message said:

The obvious conclusion: Kicking can add only a modest amount of propulsion to an efficient stroke,
while it can add a significant amount of drag and enormously increase the energy cost of
whole-stroke swimming, if overemphasized. Therefore swimmers should do all they can to maximize the
benefit of their kicking while minimizing the work they put into it.

Seems to me there are several possible benefits of kicking:

Additional propulsion while stroking, which Counsilman questioned, as Terry summarizes above.

Additional propulsion between stroking. Looking at Maglischo's latest charts (Swimming Fastest figs.
4.2, 4.3 & 4.4), even during the deceleration periods, the velocities are generally above the 1.5
m/sec threshold below which Counsilman thought kicking might contribute to propulsion.

Raising the legs. Presumably, this is a waste of energy since one can raise the legs by changing
body position.

Raising the body at sprint speeds. I think this hydroplaning effect might be the main benefit of
intense six-beat kicking to sprinters.

Initiating body rotation, which Emmett Hines mentions, and otherwise stabilizing the body, might be
the main benefit of kicking for the longer distance swimmers.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Totalswimm said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Over 50 years ago Doc Counsilman, the legendary Indiana University coach,

designed an experiment to actually measure what kicking adds to propulsion. He devised an
apparatus to tow swimmers in a glide position at various speeds, both kicking and without kicking.
Tension on the line was measured to see if it was greater, the same as, or less, when kicking than
it was just gliding along.

(snip) The obvious conclusion: Kicking can add only a modest amount of propulsion to an efficient
stroke, while it can add a significant amount of drag and enormously increase the energy cost of
whole-stroke swimming, if overemphasized. Therefore swimmers should do all they can to maximize
the benefit of their kicking while minimizing the work they put into it.>>

All of this sounds like it would apply to freestyle and backstroke, but probably not butterfly, and
almost certainly not breaststroke.

Were Councilman's experiments done on freestyle only? You didn't mention. can you give us a
breakdown by stroke?

Catherine

--

~~~~~~~~~^o~~~~~~~~~~

"Catherine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Totalswimm said:

Quoted message said:

>Over 50 years ago Doc Counsilman, the legendary Indiana University

coach,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

designed an experiment to actually measure what kicking adds to

propulsion. He

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

devised an apparatus to tow swimmers in a glide position at various

speeds,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

both kicking and without kicking. Tension on the line was measured to

see if it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was greater, the same as, or less, when kicking than it was just gliding

along.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(snip) The obvious conclusion: Kicking can add only a modest amount of

propulsion to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an efficient stroke, while it can add a significant amount of drag and enormously increase the
energy cost of whole-stroke swimming, if overemphasized. Therefore swimmers should do all they
can to maximize

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

benefit of their kicking while minimizing the work they put into it.>>

All of this sounds like it would apply to freestyle and backstroke, but probably not butterfly,
and almost certainly not breaststroke.

Were Councilman's experiments done on freestyle only? You didn't mention. can you give us a
breakdown by stroke?

Given the length of time since these experiments, do you still think they would hold valid? Or might
some elite swimmers be able to show that kicking can make a difference?

As far as the efficacy of kick sets in training, I'm sure I read somewhere that kicking is a good
way to recover from a high lactate set. It can also add a bit of variety to a training session and
allow the arms some recovery time before a hard set. Paul

(Totalswimm) said:

Assisting with body rotation -- as Donal quoted Emmett Hines on -- is indeed the main benefit of
the kick. And given that, it follows that kickboard training -- in which body rotation is an
impossibility -- is a waste of time,

Now that makes me question my own kick training. I still essentially do the TI side balance drill,
one of the first drills in the pool primer, but I don't allow the kick to rotate my body in that
drill either, do I? I'm just propelling myself while on my side.

BTW, after a diligent search, I just found my copy of SME, which was hidden again (she was
supposed to be reading it). Maglischo's new book is so big you can't miss it. SME disappears for
months at a time.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Donal Fagan <Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Totalswimm) said:

Assisting with body rotation -- as Donal quoted Emmett Hines on -- is indeed the main benefit of
the kick. And given that, it follows that kickboard training -- in which body rotation is an
impossibility -- is a waste of time,

Now that makes me question my own kick training. I still essentially do the TI side balance drill,
one of the first drills in the pool primer, but I don't allow the kick to rotate my body in that
drill either, do I? I'm just propelling myself while on my side.

I've been interested in finding drills (TI or otherwise) which teach how to time the kick so that it
helps initiate body rotation in front crawl. The only TI-oriented thing I've found is a three-part
series of articles by Emmett Hines titled "Bottom Up Swimming" (available online at
www.h2oustonswims.org). The drills in these articles (e.g. V6BRRK, H6BRRK) are not included in the
1996 TI book or in SME.