100IM in...

Micheal Artindale said:

2:30mins. I know, it is not good. In fact, it is quite slow.

It is my fly that is slowing me down.

I am slow, but my strokes are not. I am doing about 28 strokes per 25m. That
likely is my problem.

I am the slow guy who keeps going for no apparent reason.

Micheal.

Hey that's 1.6 Art.

It's a stArt...

Micheal Artindale said:

2:30mins. I know, it is not good. In fact, it is quite slow.

It is my fly that is slowing me down.

I am slow, but my strokes are not. I am doing about 28 strokes per 25m. That
likely is my problem.

What is your pulse rate immediately after swimming a 100IM @ 2:30?

Swim 100 crawl at the same level of effort. What is your time?

Micheal Artindale said:

2:30mins. I know, it is not good. In fact, it is quite slow.

It is my fly that is slowing me down.

I am slow, but my strokes are not. I am doing about 28 strokes per 25m. That
likely is my problem.

I am the slow guy who keeps going for no apparent reason.

Micheal.

Hi, Micheal.

Have you ever seen a good swimmer swimming 100 IM? Sometimes it helps
to have some images in mind to know how it looks like.

Try to download the following clips (it could take about half an hour
each, be patient)

(Lucas Salata) http://www.swim.ee/brazil/Lucas/sideunder09-01.mpg

(Caio ?) http://www.swim.ee/brazil/Caio/sideunder_II06-01.mpg

(Joanna Maranho)
http://www.swim.ee/brazil/Joanna/sideunder_II15-01.mpg

[There are more clips of these swimmers at
http://www.swim.ee/brazil/brazil_index.html.]

(Sorry for my English)

"Mark P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Micheal Artindale said:

2:30mins. I know, it is not good. In fact, it is quite slow.

It is my fly that is slowing me down.

I am slow, but my strokes are not. I am doing about 28 strokes per 25m.

That

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

likely is my problem.

I am the slow guy who keeps going for no apparent reason.

Micheal.

Hey that's 1.6 Art.

What do you mean?

Micheal

Quoted message said:

It's a stArt...

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Micheal Artindale said:

2:30mins. I know, it is not good. In fact, it is quite slow.

It is my fly that is slowing me down.

I am slow, but my strokes are not. I am doing about 28 strokes per 25m.

That

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

likely is my problem.

What is your pulse rate immediately after swimming a 100IM @ 2:30?

Dont know. after 100 mixed strokes a month ago, i was up around 180+

Quoted message said:

Swim 100 crawl at the same level of effort. What is your time?

around 1:45 ish. i will find out both, and report on them

Micheal

"Micheal Artindale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Micheal Artindale said:

2:30mins. I know, it is not good. In fact, it is quite slow.

It is my fly that is slowing me down.

I am slow, but my strokes are not. I am doing about 28 strokes per

25m.

Quoted message said:

That

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

likely is my problem.

I am the slow guy who keeps going for no apparent reason.

Micheal.

Hey that's 1.6 Art.

What do you mean?

Martin has decided to start using your name as a unit of swimming speed. It
is unlikely this is meant as anything other than derision; and is is
regrettable that others on the newsgroup are starting to join him.

Bullies pick on the weak.

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca...

Quoted message said:

"Micheal Artindale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Micheal Artindale wrote:
> 2:30mins. I know, it is not good. In fact, it is quite slow.
>
> It is my fly that is slowing me down.
>
> I am slow, but my strokes are not. I am doing about 28 strokes per

25m.

Quoted message said:

That

Quoted message said:

> likely is my problem.
>
> I am the slow guy who keeps going for no apparent reason.
>
> Micheal.
>
>

Hey that's 1.6 Art.

What do you mean?

Martin has decided to start using your name as a unit of swimming speed.
It
is unlikely this is meant as anything other than derision; and is is
regrettable that others on the newsgroup are starting to join him.

Bullies pick on the weak.

by that rationale are they also the only ones with a sense of humour?

"Micheal Artindale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

2:30mins. I know, it is not good. In fact, it is quite slow.

It is my fly that is slowing me down.

I am slow, but my strokes are not. I am doing about 28 strokes per 25m.
That
likely is my problem.

I am the slow guy who keeps going for no apparent reason.

Micheal.

Why not try drilling your fly, rather than trying to swim full stroke? That
will allow you work on your other strokes without being too knackered and
can help you work on your timing.

the usual drill for fly is 3-3-3:

-push off in a streamlined position
-pulling with only your right arm, keep your left arm extended out in front.
-now switch to pulling only with your left arm, right arm extended out in
front.
-final '3' is both arms pulling at the same time...repeat...3 right, 3 left,
3 together.

Some tips for timing:

only breathe when pulling with a single arm, when you do your stroke
together, keep your head in...this will keep the hips high at all times, and
allow you to breathe 60% of the drill cycle.

The leg kick is dolphin legs at all times and is the same whether you're
drilling single arm or double.

Ensure you are 'kicking your hands in, and kicking them out'. As the hand
enters the water, 'pop your hips' (push them up, and your chest down). At
the same time, ensure yoru second kick is coinciding with the hand fnishing
the pull.

As the hand recovers in single arm, do not do it like freestyle (high elbow,
leading the hand)...make it more like a backstroke recovery, and watch the
hand over the top and into the water, which will help you witht he 'popping
hips' on entry.

If you have access to fins, you can and should practice this drill
seperately if its too hard for you to do on the front of an IM.

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Martin has decided to start using your name as a unit of swimming speed.
It
is unlikely this is meant as anything other than derision; and is is
regrettable that others on the newsgroup are starting to join him.

Bullies pick on the weak.

by that rationale are they also the only ones with a sense of humour?

If you think that bullying is funny.

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca...

Quoted message said:

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Martin has decided to start using your name as a unit of swimming
speed.
It
is unlikely this is meant as anything other than derision; and is is
regrettable that others on the newsgroup are starting to join him.

Bullies pick on the weak.

by that rationale are they also the only ones with a sense of humour?

If you think that bullying is funny.

If all derision is bullying, then yeah, sometimes its funny. Hell, if
there's no lunch money to be had, there *has* to something to get out of it.

Check the classefieds in your local rag...someone might have found your
sense of humour.

Micheal Artindale said:

"Mark P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Micheal Artindale said:

2:30mins. I know, it is not good. In fact, it is quite slow.

It is my fly that is slowing me down.

I am slow, but my strokes are not. I am doing about 28 strokes per 25m.

That

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

likely is my problem.

I am the slow guy who keeps going for no apparent reason.

Micheal.

Hey that's 1.6 Art.

What do you mean?

1.6 times your standard speed.

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Micheal Artindale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

2:30mins. I know, it is not good. In fact, it is quite slow.

It is my fly that is slowing me down.

I am slow, but my strokes are not. I am doing about 28 strokes per 25m.
That
likely is my problem.

I am the slow guy who keeps going for no apparent reason.

Micheal.

Why not try drilling your fly, rather than trying to swim full stroke?

That

Quoted message said:

will allow you work on your other strokes without being too knackered and
can help you work on your timing.

I actually do, that's how i got it this good...

The drill(s) I do are:
25m arms with proper breathing
25m dolphin kick, breathing every 4th kick
25m one arm, and 25m the other arm.

I do not do this all, typically it would be
the first 2 and then 50m of the stroke, or the last one then 50m the stroke.

As sad as it may sound, that is how i got it somewhat like what it is
supposed to be.

I have seen a few swimmers localy do it, so, I do know how it is supposed to
look like. I may ask them for assistance.

Quoted message said:

the usual drill for fly is 3-3-3:

-push off in a streamlined position
-pulling with only your right arm, keep your left arm extended out in

front.

Quoted message said:

-now switch to pulling only with your left arm, right arm extended out in
front.
-final '3' is both arms pulling at the same time...repeat...3 right, 3

left,

Quoted message said:

3 together.

Is this in 25m? or 3x25m?

Quoted message said:

Some tips for timing:

only breathe when pulling with a single arm, when you do your stroke
together, keep your head in...this will keep the hips high at all times,

and

Quoted message said:

allow you to breathe 60% of the drill cycle.

The leg kick is dolphin legs at all times and is the same whether you're
drilling single arm or double.

Ensure you are 'kicking your hands in, and kicking them out'. As the hand
enters the water, 'pop your hips' (push them up, and your chest down). At
the same time, ensure yoru second kick is coinciding with the hand

fnishing

Quoted message said:

the pull.

As the hand recovers in single arm, do not do it like freestyle (high

elbow,

Quoted message said:

leading the hand)...make it more like a backstroke recovery, and watch the
hand over the top and into the water, which will help you witht he

'popping

Quoted message said:

hips' on entry.

If you have access to fins, you can and should practice this drill
seperately if its too hard for you to do on the front of an IM.

If I do more than 50m, I have to stop. I am wiped out at that time.

If you know anything about life saving/first aid you would have heard of a
maximum heart rate. Basically, it is, i think, 220 - your age. So, for me,
that would be 195. After 50m of fly i am close to that, and, that is not a
good thing. I think once you go above that, it is concidered a heart attack.
I do not want that. If you know nothing about first aid/life saving, you
wont believe it.

Micheal

If you're doing these, Micheal, there's
only 3 weeks after this one before
you're able to swim a straight mile.
Remember, you go after that many breaths
regardless of how you feel. That's the
whole point.

WEEK three:
400 yards...rest for 12 breaths
100 yards...rest for 8 breaths...repeat
3 times
50 yards...rest for 4 breaths...repeat 5
times
25 yards...rest for 4 breaths...repeat 5
times
total: 1250 yards

rtk

Quoted message said:

"Micheal Artindale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Micheal Artindale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

2:30mins. I know, it is not good. In fact, it is quite slow.

It is my fly that is slowing me down.

I am slow, but my strokes are not. I am doing about 28 strokes per 25m.
That
likely is my problem.

I am the slow guy who keeps going for no apparent reason.

Micheal.

Why not try drilling your fly, rather than trying to swim full stroke?

That

Quoted message said:

will allow you work on your other strokes without being too knackered and
can help you work on your timing.

I actually do, that's how i got it this good...

The drill(s) I do are:
25m arms with proper breathing
25m dolphin kick, breathing every 4th kick
25m one arm, and 25m the other arm.

I do not do this all, typically it would be
the first 2 and then 50m of the stroke, or the last one then 50m the
stroke.

As sad as it may sound, that is how i got it somewhat like what it is
supposed to be.

I have seen a few swimmers localy do it, so, I do know how it is supposed
to
look like. I may ask them for assistance.

Quoted message said:

the usual drill for fly is 3-3-3:

-push off in a streamlined position
-pulling with only your right arm, keep your left arm extended out in

front.

Quoted message said:

-now switch to pulling only with your left arm, right arm extended out in
front.
-final '3' is both arms pulling at the same time...repeat...3 right, 3

left,

Quoted message said:

3 together.

Is this in 25m? or 3x25m?

start the length with 3 to the right, then 3 to the left, then 3
together...continue this pattern every 25...if it takes you 18 strokes to
make a 25, you'll go through the pattern twice, for example.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some tips for timing:

only breathe when pulling with a single arm, when you do your stroke
together, keep your head in...this will keep the hips high at all times,

and

Quoted message said:

allow you to breathe 60% of the drill cycle.

The leg kick is dolphin legs at all times and is the same whether you're
drilling single arm or double.

Ensure you are 'kicking your hands in, and kicking them out'. As the hand
enters the water, 'pop your hips' (push them up, and your chest down). At
the same time, ensure yoru second kick is coinciding with the hand

fnishing

Quoted message said:

the pull.

As the hand recovers in single arm, do not do it like freestyle (high

elbow,

Quoted message said:

leading the hand)...make it more like a backstroke recovery, and watch
the
hand over the top and into the water, which will help you witht he

'popping

Quoted message said:

hips' on entry.

If you have access to fins, you can and should practice this drill
seperately if its too hard for you to do on the front of an IM.

If I do more than 50m, I have to stop. I am wiped out at that time.

If you know anything about life saving/first aid you would have heard of a
maximum heart rate.

yes, i know a little about it 😉

Basically, it is, i think, 220 - your age. So, for me,

Quoted message said:

that would be 195. After 50m of fly i am close to that, and, that is not a
good thing.

drilling shouldn't elicit a heart rate this high.

Quoted message said:

I think once you go above that, it is concidered a heart attack.

no, its not.

Micheal Artindale said:

If I do more than 50m, I have to stop. I am wiped out at that time.

If you know anything about life saving/first aid you would have heard of a
maximum heart rate. Basically, it is, i think, 220 - your age. So, for me,
that would be 195. After 50m of fly i am close to that, and, that is not a
good thing. I think once you go above that, it is concidered a heart attack.
I do not want that. If you know nothing about first aid/life saving, you
wont believe it.

I replied to this once, but the CIA rejected it. I'll try again.

A heart rate of 195 is almost impossible to reach. First, the formula is
80% of (22 - age). Your maximum heart rate is about 156. That doesn't
mean it isn't posdsible to get it up higher than that, I guess, but your
heart rate shouldn't be anywhere near 195, especially after a 50 meter swim.

Then what i said is correct. Your problem is lack of fitness. You
described the fly work you actually are doing: 1 x 25 pull, 1 x 25 kick,
and 1 50 swim. That's it?

The suggestion was drills. Do something like this: 2 x 25 swim and 1 x
25 kick with a board. Rest 15 seconds between 25s. Repeat the whole
thing 10 times. Or at least 5 times. Repeat it several times. That's why
they call them drills.

You are supposed to get tired. You won't improve your fitness doing two
25s and one 50 once.

Get your actual pulse for 10 seconds after the 50 fly. I don't believe
you are anywhere near 195. If you are, go to the doctor and find out
what is wrong. You are 25 years old.

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I replied to this once, but the CIA rejected it. I'll try again.

A heart rate of 195 is almost impossible to reach.

This is completely false

Quoted message said:

First, the formula is 80% of (22 - age).

(We should assume Martin meant "220 - age", not "22 - age", as that would,
in this case, give a negative value for MHR.)

Formulas such as these are useful only as an indication. One opf the
original studies used an N of 10, and the varience of the samples was high.
Many factors were not controlled, and the authors temselves stated "The
formula was never supposed to be a guide to rule people's training."

Many other formulas, such as the following:

206 - (.711 x A),
217 - (.85 x A),
205 - (A/2)
214 - (.8 x A)

have also been suggested. These will not all give the same vaules for the
same age. Nor do they take into account the level of fitness, length of
time spent training, type of exercise, and so on.

Quoted message said:

Your maximum heart rate is about 156.

Utterly wrong.

Many 25-year olds would be astonished to find that by your figure, they are
exceeding their maximum heart rate half-way through warmup. Even ignoring
the imprecision of the formulaic methods for determining max HR, it is one
of 195 or 188 or 196 or 192.5 or 194.

Where did you get such a (bad) formula?

Martin Smith said:

Micheal Artindale said:

If I do more than 50m, I have to stop. I am wiped out at that time.

If you know anything about life saving/first aid you would have heard
of a
maximum heart rate. Basically, it is, i think, 220 - your age. So, for
me, that would be 195. After 50m of fly i am close to that, and, that is
not a good thing. I think once you go above that, it is concidered a heart
attack. I do not want that. If you know nothing about first aid/life saving,
you wont believe it.

I replied to this once, but the CIA rejected it. I'll try again.

A heart rate of 195 is almost impossible to reach. First, the formula is
80% of (22 - age). Your maximum heart rate is about 156. That doesn't

Sorry, that should be 80% of (220 - age)

Quoted message said:

mean it isn't possible to get it up higher than that, I guess, but your
heart rate shouldn't be anywhere near 195, especially after a 50 meter
swim.

Then what i said is correct. Your problem is lack of fitness. You
described the fly work you actually are doing: 1 x 25 pull, 1 x 25 kick,
and 1 50 swim. That's it?

The suggestion was drills. Do something like this: 2 x 25 swim and 1 x
25 kick with a board. Rest 15 seconds between 25s. Repeat the whole
thing 10 times. Or at least 5 times. Repeat it several times. That's why
they call them drills.

You are supposed to get tired. You won't improve your fitness doing two
25s and one 50 once.

Get your actual pulse for 10 seconds after the 50 fly. I don't believe
you are anywhere near 195. If you are, go to the doctor and find out
what is wrong. You are 25 years old.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Get your actual pulse for 10 seconds after the 50 fly. I don't believe you
are anywhere near 195. If you are, go to the doctor and find out what is
wrong. You are 25 years old.

This is nonsense. A lot of people (me included) can get their heart rate
to 195 for a little bit, even though it is not a happy feeling, nor is
it sustainable (and probably is not very healthy either).

I think that in Micheal's case the fact that he is getting to 195 simply
means that he is compensating for poor technique by a superhuman effort,
which is sustainable only over short distances. Presumably, with more
drills the technique will improve.

By the way, 2:30 for 100m IM is not too bad, it would be faster than the
cruising rate of at least half the people in the pool I swim in.

Lev

Lev Borisov said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Get your actual pulse for 10 seconds after the 50 fly. I don't
believe you are anywhere near 195. If you are, go to the doctor and
find out what is wrong. You are 25 years old.

This is nonsense. A lot of people (me included) can get their heart rate
to 195 for a little bit, even though it is not a happy feeling, nor is
it sustainable (and probably is not very healthy either).

He swims ten hours a week, Lev. I don't think a 25 year old guy who
swims 10 hours a week can get his heart rate to 195 swimming a 50 drill
during a workout, unless (a) he has a medical problem, or (b) he not
only has not been swimming ten hours a week, but he hasn't done any
exercise at all for most of his life.

He says he loves swimming. He says he would never give it up. I
understand that. I feel the same way. But swimming is painful for him,
and he doesn't get fit from all his swimming. It stays painful. You
don't love an exercise that is painful. You either pass a threshold of
fitness where it is no longer painful to swim 50 repeats, or you give up
the sport. Nobody loves a sport for long if the daily training remains
painful. You don't love it *until* it is no longer painful.

Quoted message said:

I think that in Micheal's case the fact that he is getting to 195 simply
means that he is compensating for poor technique by a superhuman effort,
which is sustainable only over short distances. Presumably, with more
drills the technique will improve.

Pushing learning butterfly technique misses the point here. You can't do
butterfly properly if you aren't fit. It isn't like doing crawl at 1.5k
per hour. You have to have a higher level of strength and cardiovascular
fitness to swim butterfly at all.

I wonder why that is. Butterfly is basically just crawl with both sides
doing the same thing at the same time instead of 180 dgrees out of
phase. A few butterfliers have done long swims, but not many. I suppose
the reason it is harder is you have to rise higher to breath. But I digress.

Quoted message said:

By the way, 2:30 for 100m IM is not too bad, it would be faster than the
cruising rate of at least half the people in the pool I swim in.

And I suppose they are all far north of 25.

Nobody said 2:30 was a problem. What is a problem is a pulse rate of 195
after a 50 fly drill. Not a race. Just a 50 fly as part of a drill.

Even when I was 18, working as hard as I could, I couldn't get my pulse
rate near 195. Theoretically I should have been able to get it that
high, but I never could. It didn't matter how hard I tried. But I did
have a resting heart rate of 31 in those days. Those days are gone, of
course, but it's still about 45.