Dumbell Kings?

Sounds good- maybe some curls and lateral raises as well? This guy has
some good exercises without any weights at all
www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson8.htm

Here are more
http://www.frixo.com/sites/fitness/exercises.html

"The Crow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, I have a hypothetical (currently) question for you all to chew
on.

You have nothing but a pair of dumbells to work out with, in your
apartment/flat. You are also a novice, and so are intimidated by
overly complex movements (although you except that this is something
you're just going to have to get over). You want an effective
exercise regime to start working out with, keeping it relatively
simple and abbreviated first of all, say four exercises?

I'm going with:

One-legged dumbell squat

Not a novice move, I'm afraid. While some folks come by them pretty
easily, most don't.

Quoted message said:

Overhead Dumbell press

Yes, I'd go with the Arnold press.

Quoted message said:

Press up

This is what most of us call a pushup, yes?

Quoted message said:

Dips between two dining chairs

Nah, dips take a bit of figuring out depth and technique - how much to
lean, etc.

Quoted message said:

What do you think and what would you do differently? (Apart from just
saying 'everything'.)

The one-legged dumbbell deadlift, with the unused leg held to the back,
is a possibility. I find most people can learn this one pretty quickly
and you can either stand the dumbbells on end or raise them up a bit.
Going for the full ROM to the floor with the dumbbells laying on the
floor usually causes most people to bend their lower backs too much -
not a crisis given the relatively light weight but still not necessary
and less than ideal, IMHO.

Most novices can't squat with good form even with no weight, so
two-legged squats for good form might be a useful novice exercise, or
holding the dumbbells at the chest or shoulders while squatting.

I'd add a pullup bar if you could.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Steve Freides said:

The Crow said:

Okay, I have a hypothetical (currently) question for you all to chew
on.

You have nothing but a pair of dumbells to work out with, in your
apartment/flat. You are also a novice, and so are intimidated by
overly complex movements (although you except that this is something
you're just going to have to get over). You want an effective
exercise regime to start working out with, keeping it relatively
simple and abbreviated first of all, say four exercises?

I'm going with:

[snip]

Overhead Dumbell press

Yes, I'd go with the Arnold press.

And you think that internal rotation combined with an overhead press
is a good idea for one's rotator cuffs, especially with a heavy
weight?

Just thought I'd mention that.

JMW said:

Steve Freides said:

The Crow said:

Okay, I have a hypothetical (currently) question for you all to chew
on.

You have nothing but a pair of dumbells to work out with, in your
apartment/flat. You are also a novice, and so are intimidated by
overly complex movements (although you except that this is something
you're just going to have to get over). You want an effective
exercise regime to start working out with, keeping it relatively
simple and abbreviated first of all, say four exercises?

I'm going with:

[snip]

Overhead Dumbell press

Yes, I'd go with the Arnold press.

And you think that internal rotation combined with an overhead press
is a good idea for one's rotator cuffs, especially with a heavy
weight?

Just thought I'd mention that.

I kinda like doing Arnold presses. Are they very bad even with lighter
weights (seriously light, like 10-20 lbs) & no history of rotator cuff
problems?

(The Queen of Cans and Jars) said:

JMW said:

Steve Freides said:

"The Crow" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Okay, I have a hypothetical (currently) question for you all to chew
> on.
>
> You have nothing but a pair of dumbells to work out with, in your
> apartment/flat. You are also a novice, and so are intimidated by
> overly complex movements (although you except that this is something
> you're just going to have to get over). You want an effective
> exercise regime to start working out with, keeping it relatively
> simple and abbreviated first of all, say four exercises?
>
> I'm going with:
>
> [snip]
>
> Overhead Dumbell press

Yes, I'd go with the Arnold press.

And you think that internal rotation combined with an overhead press
is a good idea for one's rotator cuffs, especially with a heavy
weight?

Just thought I'd mention that.

I kinda like doing Arnold presses. Are they very bad even with lighter
weights (seriously light, like 10-20 lbs) & no history of rotator cuff
problems?

Probably not. The more weight you use, the more you risk impingement
when you twist into the internal rotation.

JMW said:

Steve Freides said:

The Crow said:

Okay, I have a hypothetical (currently) question for you all to chew
on.

You have nothing but a pair of dumbells to work out with, in your
apartment/flat. You are also a novice, and so are intimidated by
overly complex movements (although you except that this is something
you're just going to have to get over). You want an effective
exercise regime to start working out with, keeping it relatively
simple and abbreviated first of all, say four exercises?

I'm going with:

[snip]

Overhead Dumbell press

Yes, I'd go with the Arnold press.

And you think that internal rotation combined with an overhead press
is a good idea for one's rotator cuffs, especially with a heavy
weight?

Just thought I'd mention that.

If you are suggesting that it is a bad idea, why not just say so and
tell the OP why? It would be so much more helpful and
non-confrontational.

JMW said:

(The Queen of Cans and Jars) said:

JMW said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>"The Crow" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Okay, I have a hypothetical (currently) question for you all to chew
>> on.
>>
>> You have nothing but a pair of dumbells to work out with, in your
>> apartment/flat. You are also a novice, and so are intimidated by
>> overly complex movements (although you except that this is something
>> you're just going to have to get over). You want an effective
>> exercise regime to start working out with, keeping it relatively
>> simple and abbreviated first of all, say four exercises?
>>
>> I'm going with:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> Overhead Dumbell press
>
>Yes, I'd go with the Arnold press.

And you think that internal rotation combined with an overhead press
is a good idea for one's rotator cuffs, especially with a heavy
weight?

Just thought I'd mention that.

I kinda like doing Arnold presses. Are they very bad even with lighter
weights (seriously light, like 10-20 lbs) & no history of rotator cuff
problems?

Probably not. The more weight you use, the more you risk impingement
when you twist into the internal rotation.

I don't do them all the time, but sometimes I like to change it up a
little. I'll be sure to keep the weight low and not do them too often.

Thanks!

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

The Crow said:

Okay, I have a hypothetical (currently) question for you all to chew
on.

You have nothing but a pair of dumbells to work out with, in your
apartment/flat. You are also a novice, and so are intimidated by
overly complex movements (although you except that this is something
you're just going to have to get over). You want an effective
exercise regime to start working out with, keeping it relatively
simple and abbreviated first of all, say four exercises?

I'm going with:

[snip]

Overhead Dumbell press

Yes, I'd go with the Arnold press.

And you think that internal rotation combined with an overhead press
is a good idea for one's rotator cuffs, especially with a heavy
weight?

Yes, I do. My shoulders are probably the healthiest thing on me and I
credit daily Arnold presses, done with heavy kettlebells. Your
shoulders aren't like, e.g., your neck or spine, where bending in
multiple planes at the same time can be risky.

And let's be clear about "internal rotation" in this context. You are
_not_ performing one-plane rehab exercise here - shoulder rehab
exercises that work on that sort of thing are typically done with light
weights. But picking something up, bringing it to your chest, and
pressing it overhead is a perfectly natural movement that everyone's
shoulders were designed to do and need not be avoided. This is not
internal (or, for that matter, external) rotation in the manner of,
e.g., swimming butterfly stoke, something that has been known to cause
impingement injuries for some people. I weigh 150 lbs. and my normal
working weight for these is a 28 kg kettlebell - that's about 62 lbs.
I've managed 3 reps with a 32 kg (70 lb.) kb. Certainly not phenomenal
pressing by any standard but it took me a while to get to this level and
I'm delighted to be able to strict press almost half my bodyweight with
one arm.

One more point. Performing these one arm at a time and standing is,
IMHO, a superior exercise for most people most of the time. It lets
one's shoulders find a natural path to the top. Performing the movement
seated and without back support is excellent exercise but, again IMHO,
best reserved for someone with some experience at these. Likewise
performing them with both arms at the same time should be considered a
more advanced version of the exercise. The one-armed standing version
encourages, and requires, a tight midsection and will help develop that
as well.

Quoted message said:

Just thought I'd mention that.

OK. Just thought I'd respond.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Steve Freides said:

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

"The Crow" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Okay, I have a hypothetical (currently) question for you all to chew
> on.
>
> You have nothing but a pair of dumbells to work out with, in your
> apartment/flat. You are also a novice, and so are intimidated by
> overly complex movements (although you except that this is something
> you're just going to have to get over). You want an effective
> exercise regime to start working out with, keeping it relatively
> simple and abbreviated first of all, say four exercises?
>
> I'm going with:
>
> [snip]
>
> Overhead Dumbell press

Yes, I'd go with the Arnold press.

And you think that internal rotation combined with an overhead press
is a good idea for one's rotator cuffs, especially with a heavy
weight?

Yes, I do. My shoulders are probably the healthiest thing on me and I
credit daily Arnold presses, done with heavy kettlebells. Your
shoulders aren't like, e.g., your neck or spine, where bending in
multiple planes at the same time can be risky.

And let's be clear about "internal rotation" in this context. You are
_not_ performing one-plane rehab exercise here - shoulder rehab
exercises that work on that sort of thing are typically done with light
weights. But picking something up, bringing it to your chest, and
pressing it overhead is a perfectly natural movement that everyone's
shoulders were designed to do and need not be avoided. This is not
internal (or, for that matter, external) rotation in the manner of,
e.g., swimming butterfly stoke, something that has been known to cause
impingement injuries for some people.

Do you know what you're talking about, Steve? Do you know the
difference between a standard overhead dumbbell press and an Arnold
press? Are you telling me there is no internal rotation involved in
turning the dumbbell handles a full 180°?

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>"The Crow" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Okay, I have a hypothetical (currently) question for you all to
>> chew
>> on.
>>
>> You have nothing but a pair of dumbells to work out with, in your
>> apartment/flat. You are also a novice, and so are intimidated by
>> overly complex movements (although you except that this is
>> something
>> you're just going to have to get over). You want an effective
>> exercise regime to start working out with, keeping it relatively
>> simple and abbreviated first of all, say four exercises?
>>
>> I'm going with:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> Overhead Dumbell press
>
>Yes, I'd go with the Arnold press.

And you think that internal rotation combined with an overhead press
is a good idea for one's rotator cuffs, especially with a heavy
weight?

Yes, I do. My shoulders are probably the healthiest thing on me and I
credit daily Arnold presses, done with heavy kettlebells. Your
shoulders aren't like, e.g., your neck or spine, where bending in
multiple planes at the same time can be risky.

And let's be clear about "internal rotation" in this context. You are
_not_ performing one-plane rehab exercise here - shoulder rehab
exercises that work on that sort of thing are typically done with
light
weights. But picking something up, bringing it to your chest, and
pressing it overhead is a perfectly natural movement that everyone's
shoulders were designed to do and need not be avoided. This is not
internal (or, for that matter, external) rotation in the manner of,
e.g., swimming butterfly stoke, something that has been known to cause
impingement injuries for some people.

Do you know what you're talking about, Steve? Do you know the
difference between a standard overhead dumbbell press and an Arnold
press? Are you telling me there is no internal rotation involved in
turning the dumbbell handles a full 180°?

We'll let the people reading decide. Yes. No. I'm frankly surprised
you're citing the Arnold Press as somehow being dangerous. Care to
point us to someone's opinion other than yours that it's a bad exercise?

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Steve Freides said:

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<snip>Do you know the difference between a standard
overhead dumbbell press and an Arnold press? <snip>

<snip>I'm frankly surprised you're citing the Arnold Press as
somehow being dangerous. Care to point us to someone's
opinion other than yours that it's a bad exercise?

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

I suspect ol' Jay Em is simply being a contrarian [censored] - something
I have some experience with or at least with being referred to as such
elsewhere.

Anyway...

http://www.google.com/search?q=rotating+dumbbell+shoulder+presses&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-29,GGLG:en&start=10&sa=N
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%3A2005-29%2CGGLG%3Aen&q=rotating+dumbbell+shoulder+presses%2C+dangers&btnG=Search

Interesting reading.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

Steve Freides said:

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>"The Crow" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> Okay, I have a hypothetical (currently) question for you all to
>>> chew
>>> on.
>>>
>>> You have nothing but a pair of dumbells to work out with, in your
>>> apartment/flat. You are also a novice, and so are intimidated by
>>> overly complex movements (although you except that this is
>>> something
>>> you're just going to have to get over). You want an effective
>>> exercise regime to start working out with, keeping it relatively
>>> simple and abbreviated first of all, say four exercises?
>>>
>>> I'm going with:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Overhead Dumbell press
>>
>>Yes, I'd go with the Arnold press.
>
> And you think that internal rotation combined with an overhead press
> is a good idea for one's rotator cuffs, especially with a heavy
> weight?

Yes, I do. My shoulders are probably the healthiest thing on me and I
credit daily Arnold presses, done with heavy kettlebells. Your
shoulders aren't like, e.g., your neck or spine, where bending in
multiple planes at the same time can be risky.

And let's be clear about "internal rotation" in this context. You are
_not_ performing one-plane rehab exercise here - shoulder rehab
exercises that work on that sort of thing are typically done with
light
weights. But picking something up, bringing it to your chest, and
pressing it overhead is a perfectly natural movement that everyone's
shoulders were designed to do and need not be avoided. This is not
internal (or, for that matter, external) rotation in the manner of,
e.g., swimming butterfly stoke, something that has been known to cause
impingement injuries for some people.

Do you know what you're talking about, Steve? Do you know the
difference between a standard overhead dumbbell press and an Arnold
press? Are you telling me there is no internal rotation involved in
turning the dumbbell handles a full 180°?

We'll let the people reading decide. Yes. No. I'm frankly surprised
you're citing the Arnold Press as somehow being dangerous. Care to
point us to someone's opinion other than yours that it's a bad exercise?

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

I don't see the Arnold DB press as being particularly dangerous, but
let's take another example - Larry Scott's DB press.

The four stabilizing muscles of the rotator cuff all attach to the
scapula (shoulder blade). So rotator cuff stability also depends on
scapular stability. To stabilize the shoulders, you have to involve
the muscles that stabilize the scapula. To lift your scapula, you use
the back muscles and a good exercise for that would be the rotation DB
shrug where you shrug the shoulders up and then rotate them back and
lower to start position.

In sports, lifting the scapula almost always occurs with some degree
of upward rotation. Scapular stabilization in this movement utilizes
the upper and lower trapezius and the serratus anterior. A good
exercise for this would be Larry Scott's DB press where the DBs are
initially held like your holding suspenders and the arms are raised
rapidly by rotating the elbows back. The arms are never straightened.
At the top position, the hands are pronated and the pinky finger of
each hand is higher than the thumb. The DBs look like they're at a 45
degree angle in the illustration I'm looking at in Dr. Michael
Colgan's book _The New Power Program_.

This, like the Arnold Press (and its relative the kettlebell press),
looks like it would hit the three deltoid heads and therefore be
superior for shoulder health to a movement that really emphasizes the
anterior delts.

I can't comment on what's a heavy vs a light weight. That varies by
person. You can find "monster" kettlebells, but, if I'm not mistaken,
the traditional competition KB weight is about 32 KG (Steve can answer
this more accurately.) DragonDoor, Max Kettlebells, and other places
sell heftier ones, for those who need them for training purposes. My
point is that, for many relatively strong people, 70+ lb DBs or KBs
can be safely pressed Arnold-style.

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

We'll let the people reading decide. Yes. No. I'm frankly surprised
you're citing the Arnold Press as somehow being dangerous. Care to point
us to someone's opinion other than yours that it's a bad exercise?

Steve, I recall getting into it with you a while back about shoulders, I
think you were recommending subluxing the shoulder on bar hangs. At any
rate, I think you have been blessed with shoulder joints that can withstand
a lot of use and abuse. That's great, but it's not necessarily the norm in
the general population. Overhead pressing movements can be problematic for
an awful lot of people, not to mention throwing in a rotational component.

Quoted message said:

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Ranieri said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

We'll let the people reading decide. Yes. No. I'm frankly surprised
you're citing the Arnold Press as somehow being dangerous. Care to point
us to someone's opinion other than yours that it's a bad exercise?

Steve, I recall getting into it with you a while back about shoulders, I
think you were recommending subluxing the shoulder on bar hangs. At any
rate, I think you have been blessed with shoulder joints that can withstand
a lot of use and abuse. That's great, but it's not necessarily the norm in
the general population. Overhead pressing movements can be problematic for
an awful lot of people, not to mention throwing in a rotational component.

My shoulders are getting worse every year - nearly every month. What I
keep wondering is if it it's a "use it or lose it" thing. If I don't do
shoulder presses will I lose the ability altogether?

I wish a saw a way towards regaining shoulder function.

Dally

Dally said:

Ranieri said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

We'll let the people reading decide. Yes. No. I'm frankly surprised
you're citing the Arnold Press as somehow being dangerous. Care to point
us to someone's opinion other than yours that it's a bad exercise?

Steve, I recall getting into it with you a while back about shoulders, I
think you were recommending subluxing the shoulder on bar hangs. At any
rate, I think you have been blessed with shoulder joints that can withstand
a lot of use and abuse. That's great, but it's not necessarily the norm in
the general population. Overhead pressing movements can be problematic for
an awful lot of people, not to mention throwing in a rotational component.

My shoulders are getting worse every year - nearly every month. What I
keep wondering is if it it's a "use it or lose it" thing. If I don't do
shoulder presses will I lose the ability altogether?

I wish a saw a way towards regaining shoulder function.

Dally

As many people (including myself) have learned the hard way, correct
form is a MUST when lifting.

Rotational types of presses can be good for shoulder health, but
correct form must be used.

If you don't want to use rotational shoulder presses, the same advice
applies. Looking at Optimal Muscle Training by Ken Kinakin, I see
only one type of DB shoulder press that hits all the shoulder muscles.
Here, the elbow is in line with the shoulders (at 3:00 and 9:00) in
the bottom position. This requires good shoulder flexibility.
According to Kinakin, the risk is moderate and the benefit is high.
The lesson for me here is that one has to work on flexibility if one
wants to be a serious lifter.

All the other types of DB shoulder presses do not provide high
benefits and do not hit all the shoulder muscles. The anterior delt
is stressed. On the other hand, the risk is low. These other types
are elbows in front of shoulders (at 4:00 and 8:00 and 5:00 and 7:00)
in the bottom position (medium benefit, low risk) and forward forearm
angle with hands in front of elbows in the bottom position (low
benefit, low risk).

I'm not completely sure about Kinakin's appraisal. It seems to me
that the risk would be elevated if one consistently uses a heavy
weight that disproportionately stresses the anterior deltoid. Still,
I understand his point.

II suspect that more people irritate their shoulders doing BB benches
than DB shoulder presses. In any event, balance is in order. Somehow
all three shoulder heads need to be stressed and flexibility needs to
be acquired. (That's a reminder to me!)

There are shoulder exercises/stretches that some lifters may want to
do as warm-ups or as maintenance work, e.g., Cuban presses, shoulder
"dislocates" with a rubber cord, etc.

"Dally" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ranieri said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

We'll let the people reading decide. Yes. No. I'm frankly surprised
you're citing the Arnold Press as somehow being dangerous. Care to point
us to someone's opinion other than yours that it's a bad exercise?

Steve, I recall getting into it with you a while back about shoulders, I
think you were recommending subluxing the shoulder on bar hangs. At any
rate, I think you have been blessed with shoulder joints that can
withstand a lot of use and abuse. That's great, but it's not necessarily
the norm in the general population. Overhead pressing movements can be
problematic for an awful lot of people, not to mention throwing in a
rotational component.

My shoulders are getting worse every year - nearly every month. What I
keep wondering is if it it's a "use it or lose it" thing. If I don't do
shoulder presses will I lose the ability altogether?

I wish a saw a way towards regaining shoulder function.

Sounds like if you continue to do shoulder presses you'll lose the ability
altogether anyway. Maybe try some db lateral raises, elbows bent, hands stay
below the top of your ears and some short arc RC movement for awhile and see
if it improves.

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

We'll let the people reading decide. Yes. No. I'm frankly surprised
you're citing the Arnold Press as somehow being dangerous. Care to
point us to someone's opinion other than yours that it's a bad
exercise?

Steve, I recall getting into it with you a while back about shoulders,
I think you were recommending subluxing the shoulder on bar hangs.

No, Jim, this is absolutely not true. A subluxation is defined as as
"temporary, partial dislocation of the shoulder joint" and it's not
something I ever do or ever advocate anyone doing. I keep my shoulders
tight - firmly together, never relaxed on bar hangs and the bottom
position of pullups. There is a big difference between full extension,
known as a dead hang, and relaxtion and (shudder) subluxation. I think
response of "damfino" on this thread addresses the issue correctly -
form is everything and then some. I mean, hell, saying Arnold presses
are dangerous is like saying deadlifting is dangerous. Sure,
deadlifting is a fine way to ruin your back *if* you do it with poor
technique. In the Party, we believe that proper form and heavy weight
go hand in hand, and that if you lift properly you will, if anything, be
better with a heavy (80-85%) weight than with a light one because a
heavy weight enforces good form.

Quoted message said:

At any rate, I think you have been blessed with shoulder joints that
can withstand a lot of use and abuse.

I don't think this is true, either. When I'm doing DL cycles, I DL 3-4
times per week and often finish a cycle with lots of 90%+ lifts - lots
of folks will tell you that's bad for you, too.

Quoted message said:

That's great, but it's not necessarily the norm in the general
population. Overhead pressing movements can be problematic for an
awful lot of people, not to mention throwing in a rotational
component.

Only when not done properly. I do mine 6 days a week on average, 80-85%
weight most of the time, for a few short, heavy sets, typically 3-5 sets
of 2-4 reps, and I follow all the good training guidelines - I mix up
the kinds of presses I do, I go for full range of motion, I vary the
weights periodically, I cycle them up and down, and I get to reap the
results - healthy, strong shoulders.

The only piece I might agree on when it comes to "not necessarily the
norm" is that I'm lighter than most people, and that does make for less
of a load on my shoulders for things like bar hangs, but it's why I also
do most of my chinup work with at least 30 lbs. of added weight.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

We'll let the people reading decide. Yes. No. I'm frankly surprised
you're citing the Arnold Press as somehow being dangerous. Care to
point us to someone's opinion other than yours that it's a bad exercise?

Steve, I recall getting into it with you a while back about shoulders, I
think you were recommending subluxing the shoulder on bar hangs.

No, Jim, this is absolutely not true. A subluxation is defined as as
"temporary, partial dislocation of the shoulder joint" and it's not
something I ever do or ever advocate anyone doing. I keep my shoulders
tight - firmly together, never relaxed on bar hangs and the bottom
position of pullups.

"I am not an expert in anatomy but I am also not aware of any tension in my
shoulders when I hang. I hung from the bar for 1:40 the other day and I
think I would have felt some fatigue in my shoulder muscles had I been,
somehow, holding them in other than a relaxed position. "

-Steve Freides, Dec 13 2003, 11:27 am

What is it the kids today say? Oh yeah...OWNED