More TI Debate

In MJuric said:

Personally TI or not TI I'd kill to be able to swim like this. Hell I'd be happy If I could
get my arm to bend like that.

Hackett is flexible, but his arm doesn't really bend much more than other people's. It's hard to see
from that angle, but he swings his elbow wide while his forearm descends to the catch.

(I won't comment on the analysis presented there. Except to point out before someone complains: Yes,
the page says it's based on Emmett Hines's analysis. Yes, we all know that Emmett Hines works with
TI. And yes, we all can see that Hines is being rather presumptuous by pointing out flaws in
Hackett's stroke, expecially if you might dispute whether those are flaws at all.)

Ross

In MJuric said:

Am I just not advanced enough to see the differences? Or are we arguing over nuances that have
little or no effect on us mere mortals?

The latter, I suspect.

TI teaches swimmers to stay streamlined, keeping their hips and legs high (partially, I think, by
providing a counter weight in that forward arm.) Larry also wants swimmers to stay streamlined,
keeping their hips and legs high by keeping their backbones stiff and raising their heads ( sounds
like another type of counter weight to me.) Non-TI coaches also want swimmers to stay streamlined,
keeping their hips and legs high by kicking like crazy, or arching their backs, or whatever.

Notice any patterns in the above paragraph?

The oddballs are girls like Bennett. She must have styrofoam in those legs to keep them high without
kicking. I can't do it. But then, I can't paddle my arms as fast as she can either.

Ross

You have to begin by understanding the 65/35 ratio of Hackett's stroke. One side is quite different
than the other. He Front quadrant swims with the left arm pull/R hand entry and Rear quadrant swims
with the R arm pull, L hand entry.

He definitely tilts his head forward and upward in the early stages of the pull on right. This is
similar to, but less prominent than, van den Hoogenband, who, in turn, is similar to but less
prominent than Evans.

The way to identify a head lifter is by the disappearance of the face from the water during the
early dominant side pull (on the underwaters) and literally drawing a line even with the top of the
head to measure the degree of up and down motion on the above waters.

Hackett qualifies as a head lifter by virtue of both. Also, it is easy to freeze his motion on good
quality videos. At the time when his right hand is directly under his shoulder, his head is looking
forward and raised, and the left hand is midway between his head and the water. It is also at this
point that he is in the process of overtaking his bow wave (it is also coincident with the most
vigorous part of his kick -- which is one half of a sprinter's 6 beat kick on the right).

He also rotates his shoulders much more to the right than to the left. He also rotates his shoulders
much more than his hips. None of the above are in any way consistent with any of the "TI" methods,
to my knowledge.

Ian Thorpe is a 60/40 loper (at least at the time of the Sydney Olympics, which is where my tapes of
him come from). He is similar to Hackett in the asymetric body rotation (more to the breathing than
non-breathing side). Thorpe keeps his hips virtually flat in the water, while independently rotating
his shoulders. I believe that his prodigious kick is more effective when he is not constantly
rotating the plane of their up and down motions, and that's why he probably keeps his hips so
relatively flat. He doesn't have as prominent a head lift as Hackett, van den Hoogenband, and Evans.

You don't need to have a "stiff" back to float your thighs when you raise your head. You just need
to maintain what would be considered to be good posture where you standing up on land.

Stand straight and tall, stretching yourself to full height, when standing on land. You will note an
accentuation of your normal lumbar lordosis (lumbar spine concavity, when viewed from behind). This
is good posture on land and it is good posture in the water, as well.

Something which is never taught to beginning swimmers is the importance of maintaining good posture
in the water. If you maintain that natural lumbar lordosis which is a hallmark of good posture, then
raising your head (and arms at any point forward of the mid-chest) will actually float your butt and
thighs, rather than sinking them. Hackett's butt bobs constantly at the surface of the water, and I
think that it actually elevates coincident with his head lift.

The reason that lifting the head raises the butt and thighs is that the horizontal body is balanced
over a fulcrum which is the center of buoyancy. Normally located somewhere between the navel and the
bottom of the sternum, it is just like a fulcrum on a teeter totter. When the head is raised out of
the water, the weight on the "head" side of the teeter totter is increased (the head weighs more out
of the water than in the water). This pushes the forward side of the body down in the water (without
the nonsensical maneuver of "pressing the buoy"😉, which, in turn raises the rearward side of the
body (butt and thighs). The "secret," however, is to maintain good posture. If you "slouch," then
you won't get the teeter totter effect and the legs will, indeed, be prone to sink.

Even if you don't raise your head (and just looking forward, the way that Rowdy Gaines used to swim
in 1984, as shown in Maglischo, edition 2 - "SEF" - , does raise the head sufficiently to get a
little elevation of the butt, in the presence of good posture), the mere fact that you do raise your
arms over the water (which has the effect of depressing the chest down into the water) makes it
advantageous to maintain good posture (the lumbar lordosis), to maximize the butt floating effect.
For the life of me, I don't know why the importance of maintaining good posture is not a core
component of all freestyle swimming workshops.

So, no, Hackett doesn't swim TI style. And neither does Thorpe. A good example of a "true" TI
style freestyle swimmer might be Natalie Coughlin. Except that Natalie kicks like blazes. Faster
than blazes. Which is required in order for TI style to be advantageous. Only they don't tell you
that at "TI."

- Larry Weisenthal

(RunnSwim) said:

You have to begin by understanding the 65/35 ratio of Hackett's stroke. One side is quite different
than the other. He Front quadrant swims with the left arm pull/R hand entry and Rear quadrant swims
with the R arm pull, L hand entry.

He definitely tilts his head forward and upward in the early stages of the pull on right. This is
similar to, but less prominent than, van den Hoogenband, who, in turn, is similar to but less
prominent than Evans.

The way to identify a head lifter is by the disappearance of the face from the water during the
early dominant side pull (on the underwaters) and literally drawing a line even with the top of the
head to measure the degree of up and down motion on the above waters.

Hackett qualifies as a head lifter by virtue of both. Also, it is easy to freeze his motion on good
quality videos. At the time when his right hand is directly under his shoulder, his head is looking
forward and raised, and the left hand is midway between his head and the water. It is also at this
point that he is in the process of overtaking his bow wave (it is also coincident with the most
vigorous part of his kick -- which is one half of a sprinter's 6 beat kick on the right).

OK I see this a tad bit in the breakdown on the pages I posted, as at present this is the
only reference I have. However not being what I would call a TI expert, is this truely non
TI like? Granted this is something that would be a working point on his stroke to try and
correct, if thats possible for a world class swimmer, but compared to me he has very little
head lift. As far as degree of roll although TI professes to try to have a symetrical
stroke, it is only human to have a natural breathing side and a more prevalant roll to one
side than the other. To what degree is considered non TI I do not know.

Quoted message said:

He also rotates his shoulders much more to the right than to the left. He also rotates his
shoulders much more than his hips. None of the above are in any way consistent with any of the "TI"
methods, to my knowledge.

As far as I know I've never seen anything stating proper rotation of hips to shoulders. Most
of what I've read states you should try to start the roll with the hips and let the
shoulders follow. Degree of seperation acceptable I have no idea.

Quoted message said:

Ian Thorpe is a 60/40 loper (at least at the time of the Sydney Olympics, which is where my tapes
of him come from). He is similar to Hackett in the asymetric body rotation (more to the breathing
than non-breathing side). Thorpe keeps his hips virtually flat in the water, while independently
rotating his shoulders. I believe that his prodigious kick is more effective when he is not
constantly rotating the plane of their up and down motions, and that's why he probably keeps his
hips so relatively flat. He doesn't have as prominent a head lift as Hackett, van den Hoogenband,
and Evans.

You don't need to have a "stiff" back to float your thighs when you raise your head. You just need
to maintain what would be considered to be good posture where you standing up on land.

Stand straight and tall, stretching yourself to full height, when standing on land. You will note
an accentuation of your normal lumbar lordosis (lumbar spine concavity, when viewed from behind).
This is good posture on land and it is good posture in the water, as well.

Something which is never taught to beginning swimmers is the importance of maintaining good posture
in the water. If you maintain that natural lumbar lordosis which is a hallmark of good posture,
then raising your head (and arms at any point forward of the mid-chest) will actually float your
butt and thighs, rather than sinking them. Hackett's butt bobs constantly at the surface of the
water, and I think that it actually elevates coincident with his head lift.

Maybe I'm missing something here too, but alot of what I've read about TI is or I assumed
that was meant by it, was good posture. The main element was to keep alignment of the spine
from the tip of the head through ones buttock. Many times it was explained to me and me to
others as standing proud at attention. Chin up back straight but at ease. Matter of fact
while doing some of the drills I kept flashing back to the movie were the line "The rain in
Spain falls mainly on the planes" came from. Particularly when she was being taught
"Proper" walking.

Quoted message said:

The reason that lifting the head raises the butt and thighs is that the horizontal body is balanced
over a fulcrum which is the center of buoyancy. Normally located somewhere between the navel and
the bottom of the sternum, it is just like a fulcrum on a teeter totter. When the head is raised
out of the water, the weight on the "head" side of the teeter totter is increased (the head weighs
more out of the water than in the water). This pushes the forward side of the body down in the
water (without the nonsensical maneuver of "pressing the buoy"😉, which, in turn raises the rearward
side of the body (butt and thighs). The "secret," however, is to maintain good posture. If you
"slouch," then you won't get the teeter totter effect and the legs will, indeed, be prone to sink.

This I think is correct also. I did alot of experimenting with body balance, shifting head
position etc. And yes alot of it was with TI type drills. One thing I found was finding
proper head position is imperative. I found that not necessarily lifting my head out of the
water as much as finding a truly neutral position of neither pushing up or down was the best
position. (For me anyway)

Quoted message said:

Even if you don't raise your head (and just looking forward, the way that Rowdy Gaines used to swim
in 1984, as shown in Maglischo, edition 2 - "SEF" - , does raise the head sufficiently to get a
little elevation of the butt, in the presence of good posture), the mere fact that you do raise
your arms over the water (which has the effect of depressing the chest down into the water) makes
it advantageous to maintain good posture (the lumbar lordosis), to maximize the butt floating
effect. For the life of me, I don't know why the importance of maintaining good posture is not a
core component of all freestyle swimming workshops.

So, no, Hackett doesn't swim TI style. And neither does Thorpe. A good example of a "true" TI
style freestyle swimmer might be Natalie Coughlin. Except that Natalie kicks like blazes. Faster
than blazes. Which is required in order for TI style to be advantageous. Only they don't tell you
that at "TI."

- Larry Weisenthal

Again I think that I'm probaly not advanced enough to really notice the difference
between a world class swimmer doing a loping stroke or a TI stroke. From my novice view
of both TI and loping, they certainly look close to me. One thing you really stressed
here was "good posture". I really think that this is probaly the end goal of TI. Most
swimmers I see have terrible position in the water and beggining swimmers are generally
clueless about how to get horizontal in the water. For its part I think TI does an
excellant job of teaching this, helped me alot. On the other hand you probaly have
several good points on potential drawbacks of TI for upperclass elite swimmers. The good
thing is we can always adapt and change.

Thanks for your input.

~Matt