Frame Kit vs. Basic Model?

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mike Reed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan wrote:

We on ARBR no

Quoted message said:

longer have any interest in uprights, knowing how uncomfortable they

are,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but it may be that in time many of you presently on uprights will come
around to recumbents.

I am 100% comfortable on my upright. I feel better on my bike than in
my Aeron at work. You can't assume that just because you are
uncomfortable on them that everyone else is too.

[...]

It is just a matter of time. One day you will decide that your good and
faithful upright is just causing you too much discomfort.

When I'm 86 years old? There's a guy that rides locally who's 85 and loves
his Gios. If he can ride an upright and be comfortable at 85 then there's
hope that I will, too.

Greg

NYC XYZ said:

...
But I do wonder why the SMGTe isn't more widely-mentioned...everyone
talks about Rans and Easy Racers, etc....

What is a "Rans"?

--
Tom Sherman - 1999 RANS "Wavewind" [1] and 2000 RANS Rocket

[1] <http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm>..

"G.T." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mike Reed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan wrote:

We on ARBR no
> longer have any interest in uprights, knowing how uncomfortable they

are,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> but it may be that in time many of you presently on uprights will come
> around to recumbents.

I am 100% comfortable on my upright. I feel better on my bike than in
my Aeron at work. You can't assume that just because you are
uncomfortable on them that everyone else is too.

[...]

It is just a matter of time. One day you will decide that your good and
faithful upright is just causing you too much discomfort.

When I'm 86 years old? There's a guy that rides locally who's 85 and
loves
his Gios. If he can ride an upright and be comfortable at 85 then there's
hope that I will, too.

Greg

Yes, I know a few types like that too. I call them Iron Men. I am not one of
them and most likely neither are you. You have to keep up your athleticism
in order to be comfortable on an upright. Most of us will not keep up our
athleticism after a certain age. It just becomes too tiresome to do it. At
that point, you will began to see the advantages of a recumbent.

I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

T.S.Eliot - The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

In article <[email hidden]>,

Peter Clinch said:

Tom Keats said:

Upthread Mike Reed says his bike is comfortable for him.
I take it he means the /whole/ bike, not just its saddle.

And my point remains, if it's "100% comfortable" then that implies
no possible improvement anywhere, under any circumsatnces, at any
time. Anyone that thinks such a thing is kidding themselves, and
if that isn't what he meant it remains what he implied.

What exactly is wrong with Mike's bike?

Quoted message said:

You can have something that is comfortable in an absolute sense,
but still less comfortable than an alternative in a relative sense.
Such is, IME, the case with a well set up upright bike and s
similarly well suited recumbent. The first is good, the second better.

This is all sounding rather axiomatic to me.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Edward Dolan said:

"Mike Reed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan wrote:

We on ARBR no

Quoted message said:

longer have any interest in uprights, knowing how uncomfortable they are,
but it may be that in time many of you presently on uprights will come
around to recumbents.

I am 100% comfortable on my upright. I feel better on my bike than in
my Aeron at work. You can't assume that just because you are
uncomfortable on them that everyone else is too.

[...]

It is just a matter of time. One day you will decide that your good and
faithful upright is just causing you too much discomfort. You will most
likely discover this on a very long all day kind of ride. At that point you
will either think of giving up cycling altogether or look around for a more
comfortable type of bike. As you will not longer care so much about being
fast all the time, you will have to consider a recumbent as the only
possible solution to the discomfort problem. I actually envy you when you
reach this station in your life because shopping for a recumbent is just
about the most fun you can possibly have.

I grow old . I grow old .
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

T.S. Eliot - The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock

Let us go down certain half deserted streets;
Streets that follow like an argument of insidious intent.

--
Michael Press

Peter Clinch said:

Compare like with like.

Well, no one was saying it was apples and oranges until just recently.

Quoted message said:

For example, many cycle shops in the UK
you can expect to haggle a fair bit off, at least in terms of free
accessories, on a high end bike. My recumbent dealer won't do this
and says so up front. Is that unreasonable? According to
"industry standards" perhaps, but he's playing a very different
game to almost all ther bike shops in the UK, and he's got a lot of
happy customers queueing up to do repeat business.

So there you are then. Only you might've said that in the first place.

Quoted message said:

So is he being
reasonable? According to industry convention no, according to
happy customers, yes.

No, I'm sure those happy customers would be even happier to have a
decent chance at lower prices (haggling).

Quoted message said:

You appear to think you must before you're happy to ask him about
anything.

I want to know. How's that "I think I must know before x, y, and z"?

Quoted message said:

Well, if that's all you want then fine, just don't expect it to be
of any actual /use/.

Utility is a separate though related issue, but one which you raise.

Quoted message said:

You've got $4K of deserving being treated
with due consideration like a reasonable adult by your dealer, why
not take advantage of that fact? He's on your side if he's worth
dealing with at all.

He bikes one of them Velomobile thinggys, so he sounds cool. The local
postman is a fan; he trikes and had stopped by to pick up a part,
parting with a hearty pat and recommendation. I just don't want to be
asking something like asking him to sacrifice his firstborn, is all. I
don't care about annoying y'all here on usenet; but he's got my bike
right now, and I'd rather keep him on my side if all it means is I do
some recon first.

Quoted message said:

I had two choices of where to buy it in the UK, one of which was 80
miles away and the other 450. So there wasn't much shopping around
to do, but I was impressed by the service and apparent integrity of
Ben, I liked the bike, so I was happy to buy it there. I've been
back and bought other bikes since.

Very good. I'm glad there are folks who are nice to you.

Quoted message said:

Well think about it for a couple of minutes... if you jack the
front of the bike up far higher than it's designed that will pretty
obviously affect things like the rake and thus quite possibly the
handling. If you have rim brakes it will really help if the pads
go somewhere near the rims of the wheels. Not rocket science.

Not mechanically-minded. I'm still trying to digest clipless pedals
and such. But I thought Ed Dolan the Grate was group moderator.

Quoted message said:

What's wrong with 16" wheels? The Spirit is arguably a much better
urban bike than the SMGT, which is right as that's what it's
designed for, and not what the SMGT is designed for. Why is that
"crummy"?

16" don't sound like a lot of travel, though I can imagine why they
went with that for the front wheel. But I don't understand why the
rear suspension seems compromised, compared to the SM line.

Quoted message said:

Not where your personal intellectual interest lies, where actually
getting the business done is concerned. My impression, perhaps
false, is you were interested in actually progressing the
transaction and learning exactly what you'd get, rather than what
you might get in other places. It remains the case that the best
person to tell you what you can expect from your dealer is your
dealer, no matter /how/ much you argue or research otherwise.

And with that, I abandon you to your tautologies.

Quoted message said:

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I grow old . I grow old .
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

T.S. Eliot - The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock

Let us go down certain half deserted streets;
Streets that follow like an argument of insidious intent.

Ah, yes ... a fellow connoisseur!

I do not see any reason why newsgroups should be so culturally deprived all
of the time. Wayne Leggett, the Poet of ARBR, would drag us all down to his
abysmal level if I would let him. I doubt he has ever even heard of T.S.
Eliot. I think there was recently a movie made about his life that I would
like to see if and when it ever shows up on TV.

In a college literature class we spent an entire two weeks on this single
poem. I was new to modern poetry, having read only the poets of earlier
centuries, so it came as quite a revelation to me that anything modern could
be so good. This particular poem has always stayed with me for some reason.
I think it is because I share the same view as Eliot on man and the 20th
century.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Edward Dolan said:

"Mike Reed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan wrote:

We on ARBR no
> longer have any interest in uprights, knowing how uncomfortable they are,
> but it may be that in time many of you presently on uprights will come
> around to recumbents.

I am 100% comfortable on my upright. I feel better on my bike than in
my Aeron at work. You can't assume that just because you are
uncomfortable on them that everyone else is too.

[...]

It is just a matter of time. One day you will decide that your good and
faithful upright is just causing you too much discomfort. You will most
likely discover this on a very long all day kind of ride. At that point you
will either think of giving up cycling altogether or look around for a more
comfortable type of bike. As you will not longer care so much about being
fast all the time, you will have to consider a recumbent as the only
possible solution to the discomfort problem. I actually envy you when you
reach this station in your life because shopping for a recumbent is just
about the most fun you can possibly have.

I grow old . I grow old .
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

T.S. Eliot - The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock

Let us go down certain half deserted streets;
Streets that follow like an argument of insidious intent.

x^
tedious

--
Michael Press

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

He bikes one of them Velomobile thinggys, so he sounds cool. The local
postman is a fan; he trikes and had stopped by to pick up a part,
parting with a hearty pat and recommendation. I just don't want to be
asking something like asking him to sacrifice his firstborn, is all. I
don't care about annoying y'all here on usenet; but he's got my bike
right now, and I'd rather keep him on my side if all it means is I do
some recon first.

The main thing is not to annoy me. You can annoy Peter Clinch all you want.
He is from the UK and has been a thorn in my side like forever. I have never
recovered from his damnable signature. One of these days I am even going to
go to his website and find out just how crazy he is.
[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well think about it for a couple of minutes... if you jack the
front of the bike up far higher than it's designed that will pretty
obviously affect things like the rake and thus quite possibly the
handling. If you have rim brakes it will really help if the pads
go somewhere near the rims of the wheels. Not rocket science.

Not mechanically-minded. I'm still trying to digest clipless pedals
and such. But I thought Ed Dolan the Grate was group moderator.

I only kick in when I think [censored] need to be corralled. I do not waste
much time discussing bikes and other minor stuff like that. By the way,
Peter Clinch is not bad as long as he stays on the subject. But never allow
him to get off topic. At that point you will quickly discover that he is an
idiot, a moron and an imbecile all rolled into one.
[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not where your personal intellectual interest lies, where actually
getting the business done is concerned. My impression, perhaps
false, is you were interested in actually progressing the
transaction and learning exactly what you'd get, rather than what
you might get in other places. It remains the case that the best
person to tell you what you can expect from your dealer is your
dealer, no matter /how/ much you argue or research otherwise.

And with that, I abandon you to your tautologies.

Well Hell Yes! That is what we do best here on ARBR. I am pretty damn good
at it myself. Only Mr. Sherman goes to the point usually. The rest of us
like to beat around the bush as much as possible. Mr. Varney of Old Kentucky
was a past master at this also until he got totally disgusted by me. He is
now only to be found on BROL where my types are not welcome.

We here on ARBR will lead you around in circles until you get dizzy and fall
from grace. You have been warned!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Edward Dolan the Grate said:

...
I do not see any reason why newsgroups should be so culturally deprived all
of the time. Wayne Leggett, the Poet of ARBR, would drag us all down to his
abysmal level if I would let him. I doubt he has ever even heard of T.S.
Eliot. I think there was recently a movie made about his life that I would
like to see if and when it ever shows up on TV....

Does this movie about Wayne Leggett also feature LoGo Trikes?

Or has The Grate One tripped over an indefinite pronoun?

--
Tom Sherman

"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan the Grate said:

...
I do not see any reason why newsgroups should be so culturally deprived
all
of the time. Wayne Leggett, the Poet of ARBR, would drag us all down to
his
abysmal level if I would let him. I doubt he has ever even heard of T.S.
Eliot. I think there was recently a movie made about his life that I
would
like to see if and when it ever shows up on TV....

Does this movie about Wayne Leggett also feature LoGo Trikes?

Or has The Grate One tripped over an indefinite pronoun?

Certain assumptions as just assumed. No one in their right mind would ever
make a movie about Wayne Leggett, the Poet of [censored] on ARBR! The very thought
of it sends me into hysterics. Give me a break!

By the way, Great Ones like Myself can never make any mistakes. That would
indicate a deficiency of intellect. But I must admit we Great Ones are often
distracted, so mere slips are possible from time to time.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Tom Keats said:

What exactly is wrong with Mike's bike?

*No* bike, upright, recumbent, anything, can possibly be "100%
comfortable" because there is never a situation where the requirements
of being a bike don't compromise comfort to some degree. Thinking that
a bike's comfort can never be improved under any circumsatnces is
kidding yourself.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

NYC XYZ said:

So there you are then. Only you might've said that in the first place.

Well I just thought it was pretty obvious that high margin low volume on
products with a very limited choice of outlets is rather different
business to low margin high volume on products you can pick up pretty
much anywhere. Sorry. Should I point out that the earth is round and
gravity pulls you down as well?

Quoted message said:

No, I'm sure those happy customers would be even happier to have a
decent chance at lower prices (haggling).

They're free to go elsewhere to try that. If the prices come down
something has to give somewhere. Maybe the shop goes out of business,
or the backup service isn't so good. You can't get something for
nothing. Anything free is worth what you pay for it.

Quoted message said:

I want to know. How's that "I think I must know before x, y, and z"?

You said you needed to know so you wouldn't insult him with stupid
questions. It's all right to insult people you're /not/ paying money
too with them though, so that's all right! ;-/ Do you think a Catrike
dealer will give you a different answer because you're /not/ paying him
money than if you are? If you do think that, why are you taking Buck's
word for it, if you don't think that, why bother asking?

Quoted message said:

Not mechanically-minded.

Then how are you going to make use of all these parts you'll have lying
around? I mean, come on here... *surely* you can see a bigger fork leg
is needed for a larger wheel? It's about as hard as realising that tall
guys need longer legs on their pants...

Quoted message said:

16" don't sound like a lot of travel, though I can imagine why they
went with that for the front wheel. But I don't understand why the
rear suspension seems compromised, compared to the SM line.

Small wheels lose most of what disadvantages they have if connected to
good suspension, as Dr. Moulton proved back in the 60s. They retain
various advantages, such as more flexibility for the frame design,
easier to turn and stronger.
The rear suspension isn't so good because there isn't a very rigid rear
triangle (which helps prevent suspension bob, AIUI), because other
design factors on the bike preclude it.

Quoted message said:

And with that, I abandon you to your tautologies.

Though in the meantime, if you want to know what you'll get from your
dealer, he's the best person to ask.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch who is a Medical Physics IT Officer 1 said:

...I point out that the earth is round and gravity pulls you down as well?...

Really? I was under the impression that gravity was a mutual attraction
between different bodies of mass. Down is a concept based on an
arbitrary frame of reference [2]. I was also of the understanding that
the object known as Earth was geoid shaped, not round.

[1] Not really relevant, except it annoys The Grate One.
[2] But the hominids on the geoid shaped object have found it
convenient to use a convention where the direction towards the center
of mass of the geoid is "down".

--
Tom "Pedant" Sherman

"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch who is a Medical Physics IT Officer 1 said:

...I point out that the earth is round and gravity pulls you down as
well?...

Really? I was under the impression that gravity was a mutual attraction
between different bodies of mass. Down is a concept based on an
arbitrary frame of reference [2]. I was also of the understanding that
the object known as Earth was geoid shaped, not round.

[1] Not really relevant, except it annoys The Grate One.

I am totally fed up with Peter Clinch promoting himself as a Medical Physics
IT Officer (whatever the hell that is). He is even a greater ego maniac than
I am. This is intolerable to me. No one can possibly be Greater than the
Great Ed Dolan.

I hereby challenge Peter Clinch to a duel to the death. Pistols of course at
dawn down by the riverside. He will have to come to SW Minnesota as I am no
longer up for any travel.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Peter Clinch said:

Well I just thought it was pretty obvious

Dude, what's obvious is that I want to know what I want to know.
Answering my question by questioning why I should ever want to know
that is besides the point of the question and not an answer.

Quoted message said:

that high margin low volume on
products with a very limited choice of outlets is rather different
business to low margin high volume on products you can pick up pretty
much anywhere.

Ever heard of KISS?

I asked whether "x" was "industry practice."

KISS.

Quoted message said:

Sorry. Should I point out that the earth is round and
gravity pulls you down as well?

Yes, if we were discussing rocket science and I wanted to know what the
height is at which satellites orbit without propulsion on their part.

Quoted message said:

They're free to go elsewhere to try that.

Pay attention. We're not talking about "elsewhere." Maybe you can try
another thread yourself?

Quoted message said:

If the prices come down
something has to give somewhere. Maybe the shop goes out of business,
or the backup service isn't so good. You can't get something for
nothing. Anything free is worth what you pay for it.

And the sky is blue. Except when it's not.

Quoted message said:

You said you needed to know so you wouldn't insult him with stupid
questions. It's all right to insult people you're /not/ paying money
too with them though, so that's all right! ;-/ Do you think a Catrike
dealer will give you a different answer because you're /not/ paying him
money than if you are? If you do think that, why are you taking Buck's
word for it, if you don't think that, why bother asking?

KISS.

Just want to know.

KISS.

Quoted message said:

Then how are you going to make use of all these parts you'll have lying
around? I mean, come on here... *surely* you can see a bigger fork leg
is needed for a larger wheel? It's about as hard as realising that tall
guys need longer legs on their pants...

Not if you're a bushman encountering trousers for the first time. I
never even knew bikes were fitted to the rider until just last year!
What can I say -- I always adapt, and accomodate so much sometimes I
miss out on the fact that maybe I don't have to work around something,
maybe something can work around me.

As for spare parts, I'll learn, as I have been. If you're tired of
teaching, I suggest you retire.

Quoted message said:

Small wheels lose most of what disadvantages they have if connected to
good suspension, as Dr. Moulton proved back in the 60s. They retain
various advantages, such as more flexibility for the frame design,
easier to turn and stronger.
The rear suspension isn't so good because there isn't a very rigid rear
triangle (which helps prevent suspension bob, AIUI), because other
design factors on the bike preclude it.

I see the small wheel so rider position isn't forced to be too
reclined. I see OSS 'cause it's supposed to be an "easy" 'bent. I
don't see how you deduce the rear triangle as being not very rigid due
to other design factors.

It's a cute enough bike. I'll test ride one when I go pay the balance
on the SMGTe and upgrade even more; think I saw one in the showroom,
though red, and I'll for sure want a lemo yellow one (that red makes it
look "old"😉.

Quoted message said:

Though in the meantime, if you want to know what you'll get from your
dealer, he's the best person to ask.

I've never asked about what I'll get from my dealer. I'm asking
whether what I think is reasonable as per how the bike business works.

KISS, KISS.

Quoted message said:

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Edward Dolan said:

I am totally fed up with Peter Clinch promoting himself as a Medical Physics
IT Officer (whatever the hell that is).

That was what Spock or Bones did on the old Enterprise.

Quoted message said:

He is even a greater ego maniac than
I am. This is intolerable to me. No one can possibly be Greater than the
Great Ed Dolan.

Well, I'm a superegomaniac so I can tolerate the bifurcation in
consciousness which allows for different egos to manifest at different
times.

Quoted message said:

I hereby challenge Peter Clinch to a duel to the death. Pistols of course at
dawn down by the riverside.

I'd've thought you'd've done it with 'bents. It could be the Great
ARBR Rally of the Decade! Maybe you can distract him with a Rohloff
hub or a question about your local 'bent dealer.

Quoted message said:

He will have to come to SW Minnesota as I am no
longer up for any travel.

I'd take out the woman first. Hell hath no fury like a woman left all
alone. Flowers usually work.

Quoted message said:

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

In article <[email hidden]>,

Peter Clinch said:

Tom Keats said:

What exactly is wrong with Mike's bike?

*No* bike, upright, recumbent, anything, can possibly be "100%
comfortable" because there is never a situation where the requirements
of being a bike don't compromise comfort to some degree. Thinking that
a bike's comfort can never be improved under any circumsatnces is
kidding yourself.

My own bike is a joy to ride, when I do so within its
limitations (I don't ride over loose egg gravel or
underwater.) It doesn't hurt me at all. No sore feet,
no sore bum, no sore back, no sore hands/wrists. If I
didn't ride, I'd be all gimped up with sciatica. I
wouldn't be surprised if riding was good therapy for
hip dysplasia too. You speak of comfort in a relative
sense. I've found a bicycle can be 100% comfortable
relative to a simple standing state. A bicycle can also
be 100% comfortable relative to a cracked toilet seat.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

NYC XYZ said:

Dude, what's obvious is that I want to know what I want to know.
Ever heard of KISS?

No.

Quoted message said:

I asked whether "x" was "industry practice."

And I told you what I'll tell you again in some more detail: the
recumbent sales industry is such a small and finely spread
industry, relying on rather maverick enthusiasts, that what the
"industry standard" happens to be is not necessarily going to be
what you encounter at your dealer. If you go into a typical bike
shop and ask for an SMGT the "industry standard practice" is to
tell you "we don't do those", so that snippet of info isn't a big
help, even if you want to know it.
If you want to know what his business practices are and why then
he's the one to ask.

Quoted message said:

I see the small wheel so rider position isn't forced to be too
reclined.

Like I said, "flexibility of frame design". You can just use bent
tubes to prevent the rider recling too far, but that introduces
other penalties like higher step over height and weaker frame spar.

Quoted message said:

I see OSS 'cause it's supposed to be an "easy" 'bent. I
don't see how you deduce the rear triangle as being not very rigid due
to other design factors.

If you read HPVel's blurb on their original rear suspension design
they highlight a very rigid rear triangle as a key point. The
Spirit doesn't *have* a rear triangle, so it follows it's not a
rigid one... Why is it the only cycle they do without one?
Because it won't fit with the rest of the design is the obvious answer.

Quoted message said:

I've never asked about what I'll get from my dealer. I'm asking
whether what I think is reasonable as per how the bike business works.

So discuss it with someone really close to you who owes you service
and a proper hearing and happens to be in the bike business.
That'll be your dealer. And not only will you get answers, you'll
get to know the guy you're dealing with better and enjoy a better
business relationship. He will operate according to how his
business works, and no other. It may well be that he'll agree with
you where "the industry standard" doesn't. You'll never know if
you don't ask him, and you still seem to be looking for excuses not to.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

NYC XYZ said:

Ah, but, for example, this bike's already got the V-brakes and standard
front and rear suspension on it...if I upgrade to discs, etc., can I
therefore expect to receive the V-brakes and suspension systems as
well?

In a word, no, and if you really don't already know that you had better
have a long talk with the seller.

Regards,
Bob Hunt