spoke protruding beyond nipple notch

cccrider said:

However, getting it to the stage where I'm going to be truing and not
just bringing it up to tension, I find that the spokes are already
about 2 mm over the top of the nipple notch! Two other finished wheels
I have handy (same rims, popular hubs, same calculators) have the
nipple about level with the notch.

I don't think the calculations are wrong (but looks like I could have
easily used something like 296mm) ... is this nipple protrusion
actually bad?

Nipple notch? You mean the screwdriver slot? 2mm above the bottom of the
slot would just put the spoke at or slightly past the nipple itself.
That's OK.

Ideally the spokes should be right at the bottom of the slot, but a couple
of mm above won't be a problem. Beyond that, though, you run into two
problems: you don't want the spokes long enough to reach the rim tape, or
even worse the tube. You also don't want to get the threads on the spoke
past the threads on the nipple -- a little is OK, but too much and you
have a weaker connection.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve
_`\(,_ | death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to
(_)/ (_) | them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.
-- J. R. R. Tolkein

David L. Johnson said:

cccrider said:

However, getting it to the stage where I'm going to be truing and not
just bringing it up to tension, I find that the spokes are already
about 2 mm over the top of the nipple notch! Two other finished wheels
I have handy (same rims, popular hubs, same calculators) have the
nipple about level with the notch.

I don't think the calculations are wrong (but looks like I could have
easily used something like 296mm) ... is this nipple protrusion
actually bad?

Nipple notch? You mean the screwdriver slot? 2mm above the bottom of the
slot would just put the spoke at or slightly past the nipple itself.
That's OK.

Ideally the spokes should be right at the bottom of the slot, but a couple
of mm above won't be a problem. Beyond that, though, you run into two
problems: you don't want the spokes long enough to reach the rim tape, or
even worse the tube. You also don't want to get the threads on the spoke
past the threads on the nipple -- a little is OK, but too much and you
have a weaker connection.

Thanks for the quick answer. So it's pretty much OK. That's good to
know. Nipple notch: so that's why I couldn't get any of the previous
posts on the subject when searching! :-)

Have got about 5mm more until the rim tape for these rims luckily. Am a
bit worried about the last point you made (spoke threads passed the
nipple threads) - it's going to be about 3mm passed the top of the
nipple all round by my estimate.

ccr

ccr said:

DT Swiss, Spocalc and another calculator all give me the same answer
for the spoke length: 298 mm. (The pre-defined hub values are correct
in Spocalc.)
However, getting it to the stage where I'm going to be truing and not
just bringing it up to tension, I find that the spokes are already
about 2 mm over the top of the nipple notch! Two other finished wheels
I have handy (same rims, popular hubs, same calculators) have the
nipple about level with the notch.
I don't think the calculations are wrong (but looks like I could have
easily used something like 296mm) ... is this nipple protrusion
actually bad?
ccr

Did you physically measure the rim ERD? Have you checked the length of
the spokes? Were they all the same length & the length you ordered? If
all the spoke lengths are correct, then it might be a good idea to
disassemble the wheel & measure the ERD. From personal experience, I
know it takes little roughness under the tape w/ road air psi.
(100+psi) to cause leaks, even when using good Velox tape. Two layers
of Velox help, but makes removing a tube/tire more difficult. Your
wheel may or may not work. At this point in time, you've lost the cost
of the spokes, the question is time. If you proceed & the wheel flats
due to non road side tube punctures, you've lost the time you put into
the first build. If it works you have won the game.

good luck, John

Quoted message said:

Have got about 5mm more until the rim tape for these rims luckily. Am a
bit worried about the last point you made (spoke threads passed the
nipple threads) - it's going to be about 3mm passed the top of the
nipple all round by my estimate.

Check on a spare spoke and nipple (you do have extras?) and see how
much you have left.

Ron Ruff said:

Quoted message said:

Have got about 5mm more until the rim tape for these rims luckily. Am a
bit worried about the last point you made (spoke threads passed the
nipple threads) - it's going to be about 3mm passed the top of the
nipple all round by my estimate.

Check on a spare spoke and nipple (you do have extras?) and see how
much you have left.

Yep, I have 2 extras :-)

~ 9 mm thread on a spoke, ~ 10 mm on a nipple so I'm only engaging
about 6 mm (i.e. 2/3 rds) of each spoke's thread. Bad enough to go and
get 296 mm?

ccr

Quoted message said:

David L. Johnson said:

cccrider said:

However, getting it to the stage where I'm going to be truing and not
just bringing it up to tension, I find that the spokes are already
about 2 mm over the top of the nipple notch! Two other finished wheels
I have handy (same rims, popular hubs, same calculators) have the
nipple about level with the notch.

I don't think the calculations are wrong (but looks like I could have
easily used something like 296mm) ... is this nipple protrusion
actually bad?

Nipple notch? You mean the screwdriver slot? 2mm above the bottom of the
slot would just put the spoke at or slightly past the nipple itself.
That's OK.

Ideally the spokes should be right at the bottom of the slot, but a couple
of mm above won't be a problem. Beyond that, though, you run into two
problems: you don't want the spokes long enough to reach the rim tape, or
even worse the tube. You also don't want to get the threads on the spoke
past the threads on the nipple -- a little is OK, but too much and you
have a weaker connection.

Thanks for the quick answer. So it's pretty much OK. That's good to
know. Nipple notch: so that's why I couldn't get any of the previous
posts on the subject when searching! :-)

Have got about 5mm more until the rim tape for these rims luckily. Am a
bit worried about the last point you made (spoke threads passed the
nipple threads) - it's going to be about 3mm passed the top of the
nipple all round by my estimate.

ccr

This is a big concern and if you run out of threads on the spoke you're
pretty much screwed. Take an unlaced spoke and nipple from the same
batch and see how far the spoke can actually protrude. I think the way
this works is that with DT it's often a few millimeters, with
Wheelsmith and Sapim it's often .5mm or less if any. In other words,
many spoke/nipple combinations won't let you have any protrusion at
all.

One thing to know about Spocalc and many of the other systems is that
they're based on the pure geometry of the parts and don't compensate
for rim compression or spoke stretch at all. Those 2 factors are enough
to make a big difference. Rims can compress up to around 2mm total and
around half that more or less is normal, and steel spokes stretch
around .3mm to .7mm each depending on gauge, length, and tension. The
rule of the thumb is to always round down a lot... if Spocalc gives me
294.1, I'll just use 292 if it's a light-ish rim and thin spokes, or
293 if it's available and the rim and spokes seem like they're not
gonna stretch/compress enough to mess things up. Using the 294's will
only work with a brand that gives you a ton of protrusion. Rounding
down 2mm doesn't hurt anything, but running out of threads forces you
to... get the shorter spokes anyway, usually.

Quoted message said:

From where you're, go ahead and see if you can finish the wheel, but

there's some odds it won't work.

john said:

ccr said:

DT Swiss, Spocalc and another calculator all give me the same answer
for the spoke length: 298 mm. (The pre-defined hub values are correct
in Spocalc.)
However, getting it to the stage where I'm going to be truing and not
just bringing it up to tension, I find that the spokes are already
about 2 mm over the top of the nipple notch! Two other finished wheels
I have handy (same rims, popular hubs, same calculators) have the
nipple about level with the notch.
I don't think the calculations are wrong (but looks like I could have
easily used something like 296mm) ... is this nipple protrusion
actually bad?
ccr

Did you physically measure the rim ERD? Have you checked the length of
the spokes? Were they all the same length & the length you ordered? If
all the spoke lengths are correct, then it might be a good idea to
disassemble the wheel & measure the ERD. From personal experience, I
know it takes little roughness under the tape w/ road air psi.
(100+psi) to cause leaks, even when using good Velox tape. Two layers
of Velox help, but makes removing a tube/tire more difficult. Your
wheel may or may not work. At this point in time, you've lost the cost
of the spokes, the question is time. If you proceed & the wheel flats
due to non road side tube punctures, you've lost the time you put into
the first build. If it works you have won the game.

Length of spokes - yes, this I did check, all OK and same, correct
length.

ERD - probably naive but I didn't bother and just used the 605 mm
quoted (expecting it to be fine).

Even with protrusion, there's another 5mm or so of space between a flat
rim tape over the socket. I don't know whether that's good enough
insurance as I don't know by how much an inner tube bulges into the
socket or whether there's much 'travel' towards the inner tube by the
spoke under riding load.

Quoted message said:

good luck, John

I might need it!

ccr

Quoted message said:

Have got about 5mm more until the rim tape for these rims luckily. Am a
bit worried about the last point you made (spoke threads passed the
nipple threads) - it's going to be about 3mm passed the top of the
nipple all round by my estimate.

Check on a spare spoke and nipple (you do have extras?) and see how
much you have left. If it isn't enough (but almost) you might get away
with using washers on the nipples... otherwise you need shorter spokes.
You are already at 3x with 28, so you can't increase the x amount...

I'm surprised that the lengths are way off... did you make some mistake
in the calculations or the lacing?

Quoted message said:

Ron Ruff said:

Quoted message said:

Have got about 5mm more until the rim tape for these rims luckily. Am a
bit worried about the last point you made (spoke threads passed the
nipple threads) - it's going to be about 3mm passed the top of the
nipple all round by my estimate.

Check on a spare spoke and nipple (you do have extras?) and see how
much you have left.

Yep, I have 2 extras :-)

~ 9 mm thread on a spoke, ~ 10 mm on a nipple so I'm only engaging
about 6 mm (i.e. 2/3 rds) of each spoke's thread. Bad enough to go and
get 296 mm?

ccr

If the spoke is protruding past the nipple, then all the nipple threads
are engaged.

And sorry, I didn't notice in your original post that the spokes were
protruding so much before they even had any tension on them. It's all
about threading a nipple onto an unlaced spoke and seeing if there
happens to be gobs of protrusion available. There probably won't be
enough and you'll probably need to get different spokes. There was
probably an error in calculating.

Spokes poking into the tube is only a problem on shallowish rims, which
Open Pros aren't. I doubt there's any way you could have a spoke/nipple
combo where there was enough protrusion to cover that gap without
running out of spoke threads first.

Nate Knutson said:

Quoted message said:

David L. Johnson said:

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 12:25:50 -0800, cccrider wrote:

> However, getting it to the stage where I'm going to be truing and not
> just bringing it up to tension, I find that the spokes are already
> about 2 mm over the top of the nipple notch! Two other finished wheels
> I have handy (same rims, popular hubs, same calculators) have the
> nipple about level with the notch.
>
> I don't think the calculations are wrong (but looks like I could have
> easily used something like 296mm) ... is this nipple protrusion
> actually bad?

Nipple notch? You mean the screwdriver slot? 2mm above the bottom of the
slot would just put the spoke at or slightly past the nipple itself.
That's OK.

Ideally the spokes should be right at the bottom of the slot, but a couple
of mm above won't be a problem. Beyond that, though, you run into two
problems: you don't want the spokes long enough to reach the rim tape, or
even worse the tube. You also don't want to get the threads on the spoke
past the threads on the nipple -- a little is OK, but too much and you
have a weaker connection.

Thanks for the quick answer. So it's pretty much OK. That's good to
know. Nipple notch: so that's why I couldn't get any of the previous
posts on the subject when searching! :-)

Have got about 5mm more until the rim tape for these rims luckily. Am a
bit worried about the last point you made (spoke threads passed the
nipple threads) - it's going to be about 3mm passed the top of the
nipple all round by my estimate.

ccr

This is a big concern and if you run out of threads on the spoke you're
pretty much screwed. Take an unlaced spoke and nipple from the same
batch and see how far the spoke can actually protrude. I think the way
this works is that with DT it's often a few millimeters, with
Wheelsmith and Sapim it's often .5mm or less if any. In other words,
many spoke/nipple combinations won't let you have any protrusion at
all.

Turning by hand, I can get the spoke to peep out of the top of the
nipple but, believe it or not, with the spoke key, I can get the nipple
passed the entire spoke thread!

Quoted message said:

One thing to know about Spocalc and many of the other systems is that
they're based on the pure geometry of the parts and don't compensate
for rim compression or spoke stretch at all. Those 2 factors are enough
to make a big difference. Rims can compress up to around 2mm total and
around half that more or less is normal, and steel spokes stretch
around .3mm to .7mm each depending on gauge, length, and tension. The
rule of the thumb is to always round down a lot... if Spocalc gives me
294.1, I'll just use 292 if it's a light-ish rim and thin spokes, or
293 if it's available and the rim and spokes seem like they're not
gonna stretch/compress enough to mess things up. Using the 294's will
only work with a brand that gives you a ton of protrusion. Rounding
down 2mm doesn't hurt anything, but running out of threads forces you
to... get the shorter spokes anyway, usually.

From where you're, go ahead and see if you can finish the wheel, but
there's some odds it won't work.

I think it can be finished off (is 2/3rds of the thread 'ok'?) but I
may just pop out tomorrow and get the 296s.

Thanks for tip about geometry vs reality. I'll be rounding down in
future!

ccr

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

cccrider said:

However, getting it to the stage where I'm going to be truing and not
just bringing it up to tension, I find that the spokes are already
about 2 mm over the top of the nipple notch! Two other finished wheels
I have handy (same rims, popular hubs, same calculators) have the
nipple about level with the notch.

I don't think the calculations are wrong (but looks like I could have
easily used something like 296mm) ... is this nipple protrusion
actually bad?

<snip>
You also don't want to get the threads on the spoke
past the threads on the nipple -- a little is OK, but too much and you
have a weaker connection.
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Why do you say it will "go past"? Why will it not just bottom out?
--
Mark

[email hidden]

Mark said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

cccrider said:

However, getting it to the stage where I'm going to be truing and not
just bringing it up to tension, I find that the spokes are already
about 2 mm over the top of the nipple notch! Two other finished wheels
I have handy (same rims, popular hubs, same calculators) have the
nipple about level with the notch.

I don't think the calculations are wrong (but looks like I could have
easily used something like 296mm) ... is this nipple protrusion
actually bad?

<snip>
You also don't want to get the threads on the spoke
past the threads on the nipple -- a little is OK, but too much and you
have a weaker connection.
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Why do you say it will "go past"? Why will it not just bottom out?

Yes, sorry, it does just bottom out.

ccr

john said:

........From personal experience, I
know it takes little roughness under the tape w/ road air psi.
(100+psi) to cause leaks, even when using good Velox tape. Two layers
of Velox help, but makes removing a tube/tire more difficult.

For rececessed spoke holes, grommets can be made from sliced Presta valve
dust caps if concerned about air pressure forcing tape down.... So your
huge dust cap collection eventually comes in handy ;-)

~PB

Quoted message said:

Mark wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why do you say it will "go past"? Why will it not just bottom out?

Yes, sorry, it does just bottom out.

If you turn the spoke key hard enough, it will go past. I have done this
without problems... not that I think it's a good idea.

~PB

Nate Knutson said:

Quoted message said:

David L. Johnson said:

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 12:25:50 -0800, cccrider wrote:

> However, getting it to the stage where I'm going to be truing and not
> just bringing it up to tension, I find that the spokes are already
> about 2 mm over the top of the nipple notch! Two other finished wheels
> I have handy (same rims, popular hubs, same calculators) have the
> nipple about level with the notch.
>
> I don't think the calculations are wrong (but looks like I could have
> easily used something like 296mm) ... is this nipple protrusion
> actually bad?

Nipple notch? You mean the screwdriver slot? 2mm above the bottom of the
slot would just put the spoke at or slightly past the nipple itself.
That's OK.

Ideally the spokes should be right at the bottom of the slot, but a couple
of mm above won't be a problem. Beyond that, though, you run into two
problems: you don't want the spokes long enough to reach the rim tape, or
even worse the tube. You also don't want to get the threads on the spoke
past the threads on the nipple -- a little is OK, but too much and you
have a weaker connection.

Thanks for the quick answer. So it's pretty much OK. That's good to
know. Nipple notch: so that's why I couldn't get any of the previous
posts on the subject when searching! :-)

Have got about 5mm more until the rim tape for these rims luckily. Am a
bit worried about the last point you made (spoke threads passed the
nipple threads) - it's going to be about 3mm passed the top of the
nipple all round by my estimate.

ccr

This is a big concern and if you run out of threads on the spoke you're
pretty much screwed. Take an unlaced spoke and nipple from the same
batch and see how far the spoke can actually protrude. I think the way
this works is that with DT it's often a few millimeters, with
Wheelsmith and Sapim it's often .5mm or less if any. In other words,
many spoke/nipple combinations won't let you have any protrusion at
all.

One thing to know about Spocalc and many of the other systems is that
they're based on the pure geometry of the parts and don't compensate
for rim compression or spoke stretch at all. Those 2 factors are enough
to make a big difference. Rims can compress up to around 2mm total and
around half that more or less is normal, and steel spokes stretch
around .3mm to .7mm each depending on gauge, length, and tension. The
rule of the thumb is to always round down a lot... if Spocalc gives me
294.1, I'll just use 292 if it's a light-ish rim and thin spokes, or
293 if it's available and the rim and spokes seem like they're not
gonna stretch/compress enough to mess things up. Using the 294's will
only work with a brand that gives you a ton of protrusion. Rounding
down 2mm doesn't hurt anything, but running out of threads forces you
to... get the shorter spokes anyway, usually.

Quoted message said:

From where you're, go ahead and see if you can finish the wheel, but

there's some odds it won't work.

Update:

Lateral truing - less than .5 mm error - quite pleased!

Radial truing - couple of 1-1.5 mm bumps but with my lack of skill (2nd
wheel) and the fact I can't seem to fix this without causing lateral
problems and the fact this has so far taken about 8 hours over 2 days
(!!!) I might just leave it.

Dishing - fine.

Stress relieving still doesn't show that the wheel is near its 'final
tension' (as the wheel is still in good shape after a good hard squeeze
on all the spoke pairs) but spokes all within a tone of each other and
with my rubbishy ear about E-F above middle C on a piano (not that I
have have a piano) when plucked.

Just peeled back the rim tape to have a look and the spokes are showing
not more than 3 mm (so I think I must have exaggerated the protrusion
initially). This isn't fantastic but I think, after all this, I'm going
to just risk it and see what happens and maybe learn a lesson (already
learnt quite a few which is good) :-)

I followed the advice in the original thread '2 cross rear wheel - not
so bad?' and both sides have trailing spokes on the outside.

After a little break, I should really start increasing the tension in
stages and see what happens. But I'm quite tempted just to call it a
day, get the chain tension sorted and go and ride the bloody thing!

ccr

Quoted message said:

David L. Johnson said:

cccrider said:

However, getting it to the stage where I'm going to be truing and not
just bringing it up to tension, I find that the spokes are already
about 2 mm over the top of the nipple notch! Two other finished wheels
I have handy (same rims, popular hubs, same calculators) have the
nipple about level with the notch.

I don't think the calculations are wrong (but looks like I could have
easily used something like 296mm) ... is this nipple protrusion
actually bad?

Nipple notch? You mean the screwdriver slot? 2mm above the bottom of the
slot would just put the spoke at or slightly past the nipple itself.
That's OK.

Ideally the spokes should be right at the bottom of the slot, but a couple
of mm above won't be a problem. Beyond that, though, you run into two
problems: you don't want the spokes long enough to reach the rim tape, or
even worse the tube. You also don't want to get the threads on the spoke
past the threads on the nipple -- a little is OK, but too much and you
have a weaker connection.

Thanks for the quick answer. So it's pretty much OK. That's good to
know. Nipple notch: so that's why I couldn't get any of the previous
posts on the subject when searching! :-)

Have got about 5mm more until the rim tape for these rims luckily. Am a
bit worried about the last point you made (spoke threads passed the
nipple threads) - it's going to be about 3mm passed the top of the
nipple all round by my estimate.

ccr

Tubes bulge into the eyelets from the outside and even with lots of rim
tape(which may make it hard to seat the tire), it may rub enough to
puncture- Sure you don't have spokes for 3 cross length?

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Quoted message said:

David L. Johnson said:

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 12:25:50 -0800, cccrider wrote:

> However, getting it to the stage where I'm going to be truing and not
> just bringing it up to tension, I find that the spokes are already
> about 2 mm over the top of the nipple notch! Two other finished wheels
> I have handy (same rims, popular hubs, same calculators) have the
> nipple about level with the notch.
>
> I don't think the calculations are wrong (but looks like I could have
> easily used something like 296mm) ... is this nipple protrusion
> actually bad?

Nipple notch? You mean the screwdriver slot? 2mm above the bottom of the
slot would just put the spoke at or slightly past the nipple itself.
That's OK.

Ideally the spokes should be right at the bottom of the slot, but a couple
of mm above won't be a problem. Beyond that, though, you run into two
problems: you don't want the spokes long enough to reach the rim tape, or
even worse the tube. You also don't want to get the threads on the spoke
past the threads on the nipple -- a little is OK, but too much and you
have a weaker connection.

Thanks for the quick answer. So it's pretty much OK. That's good to
know. Nipple notch: so that's why I couldn't get any of the previous
posts on the subject when searching! :-)

Have got about 5mm more until the rim tape for these rims luckily. Am a
bit worried about the last point you made (spoke threads passed the
nipple threads) - it's going to be about 3mm passed the top of the
nipple all round by my estimate.

ccr

Tubes bulge into the eyelets from the outside and even with lots of rim
tape(which may make it hard to seat the tire), it may rub enough to
puncture- Sure you don't have spokes for 3 cross length?

I'm doing it 3 cross after all. I think the calcs are correct, just
that I should have rounded down. Just looked at spocalc again and 2
cross is 284, 3 cross 298. Now that mistake would make for a really
massive protrusion!

I'm hoping the inner tube won't bulge 5 mm down the socket, but I just
don't know! Would be interesting to see how much it does though.

ccr

Quoted message said:

Lateral truing - less than .5 mm error - quite pleased!

Radial truing - couple of 1-1.5 mm bumps but with my lack of skill
(2nd
wheel) and the fact I can't seem to fix this without causing lateral
problems and the fact this has so far taken about 8 hours over 2 days
(!!!) I might just leave it.

Have a go at getting it radially true whilst only roughly worrying about
lateral trueness, then afterwards correct lateral trueness whilst not
worrying at all about radial trueness. Repeat until bored! (Works
because more difference in tension is required to make a significant
radial difference than lateral).

/snip

Quoted message said:

After a little break, I should really start increasing the tension in
stages and see what happens.

Tension will naturally increase as you correct any radial "bumps" (don't
worry so much about dips). I find tension is about right at the same time
as the wheel is true enough for my liking, by coincidence/intuition.

Please feel free to ignore all of the above! (Everyone seems to have
their own methods).

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

Lateral truing - less than .5 mm error - quite pleased!

Radial truing - couple of 1-1.5 mm bumps but with my lack of skill
(2nd
wheel) and the fact I can't seem to fix this without causing lateral
problems and the fact this has so far taken about 8 hours over 2 days
(!!!) I might just leave it.

Have a go at getting it radially true whilst only roughly worrying about
lateral trueness, then afterwards correct lateral trueness whilst not
worrying at all about radial trueness. Repeat until bored! (Works
because more difference in tension is required to make a significant
radial difference than lateral).

/snip

Quoted message said:

After a little break, I should really start increasing the tension in
stages and see what happens.

Tension will naturally increase as you correct any radial "bumps" (don't
worry so much about dips). I find tension is about right at the same time
as the wheel is true enough for my liking, by coincidence/intuition.

Please feel free to ignore all of the above! (Everyone seems to have
their own methods).

Cheers for the tips about the radial then lateral loop. OK, I'll try
and make some progress on the radial error, as it's such a damp day in
London.

If it goes wrong, why don't you come round and finish it off - I know
you're in London too!

ccr