Avoiding sticky tubes?

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

In my quest for less RR, I was wondering how somehow lubricating the
tube/tire contact might help. What sort of solutions might work or are
to be avoided. Talcum powder? What happens when it is wet? Silicone
spray? Do patches stick? Do tires blow of the rim?

Suggestions? (Please, no suggestions that I don't worry about RR! RR is
about 30% of my drag at race speed.)

Thanks!

Joseph

Hmmm..some say wind drag is about 85%, and you think RR 'drag' is
30%.....

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

In my quest for less RR, I was wondering how somehow lubricating the
tube/tire contact might help.

Do Not Try This.

Quoted message said:

What sort of solutions might work or are
to be avoided. Talcum powder? What happens when it is wet? Silicone
spray? Do patches stick? Do tires blow of the rim?

There is no lubrication regime that you can employ which will reduce
rolling resistance without introducing several additional problems,
one of which is the real danger that the tire/rim interface will get
lubricated and allow the tire to work off of the bead and/or allow the
rim to spin within the tire, probably dragging the tube's valve stem
off in the process. If you're lucky, wet lubricants will simply be
absorbed by the rubber, possibly compromising its integrity. Dry
lubricants under pressure tend to become abrasives insted of
lubricants, generating heat, eating the tubes, and causing more energy
to be lost than would be the case if the flexure was simply permitted.

Quoted message said:

Suggestions? (Please, no suggestions that I don't worry about RR! RR is
about 30% of my drag at race speed.)

How do you figure that rolling resistance is 30% of your drag at race
speed? Are your speeds really that low? Are you racing on thick
knobby tires? For the average road racer, it's my understanding that
aerodynamic drag accounts for more like 85 to 90% of the energy
required at speed.
--
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Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Quoted message said:

You're in Colorado, right? Nicer roads than Norway.

Donno, I've been to Bodo-pretty nice roads, the ones I saw, Didn't ride
a bicycle.

They use a very rough asphalt with a high percentage of pebbles. I
think this must be to counter the wear from studded winter tires. In
southern Norway which has many more cars/people per km of road than
Bodo a freshly resurfaced road is effectively ruined in 2 years. The
roads are the worst of anywhere I have lived. (NYC, LA, Chicago,
Switzerland, France)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have settled on Michelin Pro tires with lightweight butyl tubes. If 2
grams of talcum powder or a spray of silicone would give me that 10%,
that would be the cheapest 10% around. I'll take it! ;-)

Doubt that some baby powder is gonna make that kind of difference. I
look to my equipment as the last thing on the list to make my cycling
performance better. But YMMV...whatever floats yer boat.

It IS the last thing on my list :-)

Joseph

Joseph Santaniello said:

In my quest for less RR, I was wondering how somehow lubricating the
tube/tire contact might help. What sort of solutions might work or
are to be avoided. Talcum powder? What happens when it is wet?
Silicone spray? Do patches stick? Do tires blow of the rim?

Quoted message said:

Suggestions? (Please, no suggestions that I don't worry about RR!
RR is about 30% of my drag at race speed.)

I don't know where you got that 30% but it is incorrect. That could
be correct if your "race speed" is about 5mph. However, making your
inner tubes slide inside the tire casing can only increase these
losses, not reduce them. Fortunately, contact pressure of 100psi
between tire and tube guarantees that there will be no motion unless
you use grease and even then it isn't likely.

Why do you believe a sliding inner tube will reduce RR?

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Joseph Santaniello said:

In my quest for less RR, I was wondering how somehow lubricating the
tube/tire contact might help. What sort of solutions might work or
are to be avoided. Talcum powder? What happens when it is wet?
Silicone spray? Do patches stick? Do tires blow of the rim?

Quoted message said:

Suggestions? (Please, no suggestions that I don't worry about RR!
RR is about 30% of my drag at race speed.)

I don't know where you got that 30% but it is incorrect. That could
be correct if your "race speed" is about 5mph. However, making your
inner tubes slide inside the tire casing can only increase these
losses, not reduce them. Fortunately, contact pressure of 100psi
between tire and tube guarantees that there will be no motion unless
you use grease and even then it isn't likely.

Perhaps 30% is high, but being heavy RR is more than if I were not
heavy. And rough roads make it worse. Of course everyone I ride with
rides on the same roads, but rough roads I belive have a significant
effect on RR, that is even more significant with higher rider weight.

Quoted message said:

Why do you believe a sliding inner tube will reduce RR?

I don't necessarily believe it will reduce RR. My thought was that heat
generated by the deformation of the tube and of the tire were enough
without adding heat from friction between the two. But then I started
thinking about maybe that means the tube should be "glued" to the tire.
In other words a tubeless tire. But maybe the tubeless tire has to be
reinforced in such a way that it is less supple than the regular
tube/tire combo and there is no net gain.

Joseph

Joseph Santaniello said:

Quoted message said:

Why do you believe a sliding inner tube will reduce RR?

Quoted message said:

I don't necessarily believe it will reduce RR. My thought was that heat
generated by the deformation of the tube and of the tire were enough
without adding heat from friction between the two. But then I started
thinking about maybe that means the tube should be "glued" to the tire.
In other words a tubeless tire. But maybe the tubeless tire has to be
reinforced in such a way that it is less supple than the regular
tube/tire combo and there is no net gain.

The tire and tube ARE glued together, immovably so by inflation
pressure. You may not have noticed that tubes, in the absence of
release powders, become firmly stuck to tire casings anyway, the best
condition you can expect. There is no motion between the two.

If you want to see what RR values are, have a look at these graphs:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance-tubular.html

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

In my quest for less RR, I was wondering how somehow lubricating the
tube/tire contact might help. What sort of solutions might work or are
to be avoided. Talcum powder? What happens when it is wet? Silicone
spray? Do patches stick? Do tires blow of the rim?

Suggestions? (Please, no suggestions that I don't worry about RR! RR is
about 30% of my drag at race speed.)

Latex tubes might help RR. Talc is useful for fitting tyres, but not
much else.

Quoted message said:

But are all dry lubricants abrasive?

At the interface pressure and for the materials involved, any dry
lubricant that can be relied upon to remain in position will either be
of no value, or would be abrasive or adhesive, or worse. Powdered
teflon would remain slippery, but it would be worse than no lube; the
material would not remain evenly applied, and within a few hundred
revolutions there would be spots that were not lubricated which would
be rubbing ferociously. That's the other problem; if *any part* of
the tube/tire interface can slide, then the whole thing would need to
slide or it would self-destruct in short order. I don't see any way
to make this work, and lots of ways for it to go badly wrong. Even if
it worked, the tube still has to flex as the tire deforms, so the
major component of the rolling resistance contributed by it would
remain present, and you'd add in the friction of the interface as
well. I believe that the net result would be an *increase* in losses,
not a reduction.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But are all dry lubricants abrasive?

At the interface pressure and for the materials involved, any dry
lubricant that can be relied upon to remain in position will either be
of no value, or would be abrasive or adhesive, or worse.

Hmmm, this is a different application but long ago I started using talcum
powder on my fatter, lower pressure mtn bike tires to keep the tube from
spinning on narrow rims. On the worst combos, 2.2" tires on MA-2s, I had to
use tubular glue to keep the tire/tube combos from spinning the tube. But
on combos that weren't as bad usually the talc would keep the tube from
adhering to the tire, and keep my valve stems straight. Never saw any
extreme wear on my tubes.

Greg

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:39:30 -0800, "G.T." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But are all dry lubricants abrasive?

At the interface pressure and for the materials involved, any dry
lubricant that can be relied upon to remain in position will either be
of no value, or would be abrasive or adhesive, or worse.

Hmmm, this is a different application but long ago I started using talcum
powder on my fatter, lower pressure mtn bike tires to keep the tube from
spinning on narrow rims.

What was doubtless taking place was that the tire was slipping on the
rim and pulling the tube along with it. There's no way the tube would
have moved by itself. At low pressures, this creeping can happen. At
road-bike pressures (which is what's under discussion) the tire is not
going to slip.

Quoted message said:

On the worst combos, 2.2" tires on MA-2s, I had to
use tubular glue to keep the tire/tube combos from spinning the tube. But
on combos that weren't as bad usually the talc would keep the tube from
adhering to the tire, and keep my valve stems straight. Never saw any
extreme wear on my tubes.

The low pressure is the only thing that allowed it to work, and all it
accomplished was to facilitate the creep of the tire without dragging
the tube along. I sincerely doubt that the tube was moving inside the
tire with ever rev of the wheel. Had it done so, I'm sure you'd have
noticed the wear that would have taken place in the spots where it
wasn't as well lubed...and there definitely would have been some, with
that much motion.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
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"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:39:30 -0800, "G.T." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 7 Feb 2006 09:25:44 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:

> But are all dry lubricants abrasive?

At the interface pressure and for the materials involved, any dry
lubricant that can be relied upon to remain in position will either be
of no value, or would be abrasive or adhesive, or worse.

Hmmm, this is a different application but long ago I started using talcum
powder on my fatter, lower pressure mtn bike tires to keep the tube from
spinning on narrow rims.

What was doubtless taking place was that the tire was slipping on the
rim and pulling the tube along with it. There's no way the tube would
have moved by itself. At low pressures, this creeping can happen. At
road-bike pressures (which is what's under discussion) the tire is not
going to slip.

Quoted message said:

On the worst combos, 2.2" tires on MA-2s, I had to
use tubular glue to keep the tire/tube combos from spinning the tube.

But

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on combos that weren't as bad usually the talc would keep the tube from
adhering to the tire, and keep my valve stems straight. Never saw any
extreme wear on my tubes.

The low pressure is the only thing that allowed it to work, and all it
accomplished was to facilitate the creep of the tire without dragging
the tube along. I sincerely doubt that the tube was moving inside the
tire with ever rev of the wheel. Had it done so, I'm sure you'd have
noticed the wear that would have taken place in the spots where it
wasn't as well lubed...and there definitely would have been some, with
that much motion.

Yes, I think my only point to this was that with a lot of tire slippage
during braking and the tube remaining fairly stationary I don't see ANY
abnormal wear on my tubes. Until I recently suffered a string of yucca
induced flats my tubes had been in place for 9 months, don't know how many
miles that entailed.

Greg

i raised the question previously qand was somewhat underwhelmed by
responses

the used tube box(es) past and present total around 40 tubes
not using talc or cornstarch produces a higher number of tubes defunct
thru rubber fractures
and a higher number of tubes with significantly more fractured tube
surface area
i maintain a reasonable trueness level but carry 30+ pounds plus my 165
but carefully`
i noticed slime liners come slimed with a silicone lube then asked what
about silicone as talc or cornstarch-but no response from Tour level
experimeneters or gyrogearloose.
an electrical use silicone grease exists possibley comparable to the
slime silicone
silicone in the right form is a rubber prerservative-as reducing
fractures both in lubrication and surface treatment.
JB sez the tube and tire are bonded together from pressure and no
movement exists-
we dissent: historically tubes are talced to reduce wear-is this true
not?
but then that's at lower presssures-let's say the pressures-90-70
pounds-that filled my tube box
but comp pressures I know not and am starled by nashbar sale carbon
conti running 175 pounds
which may blow tubes from slight imperfections(unseen) on the inside
tire surfaces.
now what can i do about the c-clamp? butter?

Quoted message said:

Talcum powder?

Powder on a tube can sometimes make it easier to install. I doubt
that it has any effect once the tire is pumped up.

I used to powder tubes and had no problems. Don't do it any more
though.

JT

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so i said i said the tube box holds around 40 tubes and...

Per [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

The roads are the worst of anywhere I have lived. (NYC, LA, Chicago,
Switzerland, France)

Come to Southeastern Pennsylvania for a few months.

Not long after the wall came down, my daughter was riding around in East Germany
with a bunch of aunts from the west and they were all clucking/tsk-tsking about
the condition of the roads there... "How can a government let something like
this happen?"... "What kind of people *live* here?"...."Why do people stand for
this?"... and so-on and so-forth.

Meanwhile my daughter, sitting in the back seat, was thinking "I dunno... seems
pretty much like the roads in Philly to me...".
--
PeteCresswell

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:16:37 -0800, "G.T." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

... I think my only point to this was that with a lot of tire slippage
during braking and the tube remaining fairly stationary I don't see ANY
abnormal wear on my tubes. Until I recently suffered a string of yucca
induced flats my tubes had been in place for 9 months, don't know how many
miles that entailed.

That there was *some* motion is a given. However, had there been
continual motion, the rubbing would have damaged the tube; talc is a
fairly poor lube which will only allow a small amount of slippage by
comparison with what an actual lubricant provides, and it would not
have prevented heat from building up in the process. Thus we aren't
talking about the kind of slippage that the OP was seeking to
facilitate. The only reason the talc worked in this case is that the
interface pressure was low and the amount of motion was small and
infrequent. Had it been otherwise, the talc couldn't have done the
job. If the tire pressure was as high as that found on a road bike,
the slippage would not have been present anyway, and the whole thing
would have been moot. Of course, at those pressures, the tire might
have come off the rim, too.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

(PeteCresswell) said:

Per [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

The roads are the worst of anywhere I have lived. (NYC, LA, Chicago,
Switzerland, France)

Come to Southeastern Pennsylvania for a few months.

Not long after the wall came down, my daughter was riding around in East Germany
with a bunch of aunts from the west and they were all clucking/tsk-tsking about
the condition of the roads there... "How can a government let something like
this happen?"... "What kind of people *live* here?"...."Why do people stand for
this?"... and so-on and so-forth.

Meanwhile my daughter, sitting in the back seat, was thinking "I dunno... seems
pretty much like the roads in Philly to me...".

That's funny. The first time I was in the former East Germany I war
driving along on the Autobahn and it was made of big concrete blocks
that had all shifted from so much traffic. 100 km/h was the max speed
that was possible. I thought to myself, "Wow, this is like I-80 through
PA, only worse!" Ka-thunk, Ka-thunk, ka-thunk...

Actually when I said the worst roads I meant from a cycling surface
point of view. There aren't that many pot-holes, but the surface is
super rough.

Joseph

Dans le message de
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Quoted message said:

so i said i said the tube box holds around 40 tubes and...

I can't contribute...
A few years ago, I saw a sale on latex tubes for 5FFr and bought a dozen.
My tube box still has fresh new ones in it. Old ones outlast tires.
--
Sandy

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that
"you do the math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according
to [insert NAME here].

Chalo said:

The rougher the surface, the more a fat tire improves total rolling
resistance. A fat (and therefore thick) tire exhibits more flexure
hysteresis than a narrow thin one. But it does a much better job of
levelling the texture of the road surface, reducing the hysteresis that
occurs in the muscles of the rider's body. In the extreme case, fat
MTB tires and mechanical suspension substantially improve overall
efficiency on rough off-road trails despite the fact that they
dissipate quite a bit of energy.

If rough pavement is the source of most of your rolling losses, you may
be able to go faster on less power if you use a fatter, "slower", "less
efficient" tire.

Well said. The energy absorbed by the rider's body seems to rarely be
considered... and I agree that it could much greater than the tire
rolling resistance when the surface is rough.

I MTB without suspension, and prefer large *heavy* tires rather than
large *light* ones... even though the heavy tires surely have greater
rolling resistance. Are the heavy tires actually faster over rough
surfaces? It seems like it... but it is tough to tell. It might just be
that they bounce less... the casing serving as my damping system. I run
very low pressures and try to be very "light" on the bike. With road
tires, the tires are too small to do much bouncing, so I think a supple
casing and low pressure would be best. That way both hysteresis in the
tire and vibration in the body can be minimized.

I think that if you can feel significant vibration (to the point of
being uncomfortable), you'd actually be *faster* if you reduced the
tire pressure to where you just avoid pinch flats. And I'm not even
talking about fatigue... just vibration losses.

Quoted message said:

Racing for me is large group TT type rides. The idea is to average 40
km/h over long distances.

A key point actually... since you are drafting a large part of the
time, the rolling resistance becomes a larger percentage. Aero
resistance drops a lot in a pack. I doubt you are up to 30% RR but it
doesn't really matter. Lower RR will help on the climbs, too...

I wouldn't worry about lubing your tubes... but a good latex tube would
help a little. The 25mm Michelin Pro2s should be a good tire choice.