Durable Road Wheels

Mike Reed said:

I'm hoping there won't be any more updates, as I'm expecting these
wheels to last me a looooong time.

Look out for potholes, then!

Good luck with your wheels...

Quoted message said:

I got them built up this weekend, with final truing and tensioning
going quite smoothly. I emailed Velocity to ask about tension, and they
said 100kgf front and 110kgf drive-side rear. I've gotten really close
to those numbers, with very little variance. I haven't added them all
up, but I'm thinking I managed a 5% variance, certainly less than 10%.
They're also quite round and true. Perfect dish.

A funny story about getting tension specs from Velocity USA:

I was building up a wheelset with 36h Aerohead front and 36h Aerohead
OC rear. I called them up and asked for a tension spec for these. The
guy I was talking to is the main guy you get when you call there, who's
also responsible for building many/all of their handbuilt wheelsets. He
told me 100 kgf front, 110ish kgf drive side on the rear. Aeroheads are
really light and if you built up a 36h one to that much tension per
spoke, it would taco it in the stand. I told him as much and he
disagreed. He also went on to state that the amount of tension per
spoke you should use doesn't vary with the number of spokes you're
using. I thanked him and got off the phone.

I built up that wheel using Jobst's method and it came out at like
70ish kgf per spoke as it's max tension. 100 would have killed it.

Later I got an idea, and looked in their catalog. The Aerohead-based
wheelset they sell, which dude probably builds all the time, uses 32 in
back, 24 in front.

24 x 100 = 2400
(16 x 100) + (16 x whatever average left side tension is on their
Aerohead OC/Formula wheel) = 2500ish

So it's pretty clear to me why those numbers work fine for him. I have
no idea if the same person answers their email.

It makes sense that a 32h Deep V could handle that, but this is
something to be aware of with getting tension specs from Velocity.

I built up some 32h OC rear wheel and a 28h Aerohead and the tension is
about 110 kg and they are doing OK so far. I had it up higher than 130 when
building them and it was getting very unstable. They didn't taco but were
not reacting well to any adjustments and was getting way out of wacky when
stress relieved. I am using a Wheelsmith tensiometer. It could be off in
the reading. I think one shouldn't trust the absolute number of a cheaper
tensiometer, but use it to get relative numbers so that you know when the
tension is balanced and to compare to a know correctly tension wheel. I am
getting an FSA tensionmeter to compare the numbers. Since Jobst thinks
highly of the FSA design and his recommendation on the Blackburn Air Tower 5
was right on target. Pricey toys for men, or boys.

cel

"Nate Knutson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I got them built up this weekend, with final truing and tensioning
going quite smoothly. I emailed Velocity to ask about tension, and they
said 100kgf front and 110kgf drive-side rear. I've gotten really close
to those numbers, with very little variance. I haven't added them all
up, but I'm thinking I managed a 5% variance, certainly less than 10%.
They're also quite round and true. Perfect dish.

A funny story about getting tension specs from Velocity USA:

I was building up a wheelset with 36h Aerohead front and 36h Aerohead
OC rear. I called them up and asked for a tension spec for these. The
guy I was talking to is the main guy you get when you call there, who's
also responsible for building many/all of their handbuilt wheelsets. He
told me 100 kgf front, 110ish kgf drive side on the rear. Aeroheads are
really light and if you built up a 36h one to that much tension per
spoke, it would taco it in the stand. I told him as much and he
disagreed. He also went on to state that the amount of tension per
spoke you should use doesn't vary with the number of spokes you're
using. I thanked him and got off the phone.

I built up that wheel using Jobst's method and it came out at like
70ish kgf per spoke as it's max tension. 100 would have killed it.

Later I got an idea, and looked in their catalog. The Aerohead-based
wheelset they sell, which dude probably builds all the time, uses 32 in
back, 24 in front.

24 x 100 = 2400
(16 x 100) + (16 x whatever average left side tension is on their
Aerohead OC/Formula wheel) = 2500ish

So it's pretty clear to me why those numbers work fine for him. I have
no idea if the same person answers their email.

It makes sense that a 32h Deep V could handle that, but this is
something to be aware of with getting tension specs from Velocity.

Nate Knutson said:

Quoted message said:

I got them built up this weekend, with final truing and tensioning
going quite smoothly. I emailed Velocity to ask about tension, and they
said 100kgf front and 110kgf drive-side rear. I've gotten really close
to those numbers, with very little variance. I haven't added them all
up, but I'm thinking I managed a 5% variance, certainly less than 10%.
They're also quite round and true. Perfect dish.

A funny story about getting tension specs from Velocity USA:

I was building up a wheelset with 36h Aerohead front and 36h Aerohead
OC rear. I called them up and asked for a tension spec for these. The
guy I was talking to is the main guy you get when you call there, who's
also responsible for building many/all of their handbuilt wheelsets. He
told me 100 kgf front, 110ish kgf drive side on the rear. Aeroheads are
really light and if you built up a 36h one to that much tension per
spoke, it would taco it in the stand. I told him as much and he
disagreed. He also went on to state that the amount of tension per
spoke you should use doesn't vary with the number of spokes you're
using. I thanked him and got off the phone.

I built up that wheel using Jobst's method and it came out at like
70ish kgf per spoke as it's max tension. 100 would have killed it.

We use 100 kgf on Aeroheads w/o any porblems or issues, found on a DT
dial tensionmeter.

Quoted message said:

Later I got an idea, and looked in their catalog. The Aerohead-based
wheelset they sell, which dude probably builds all the time, uses 32 in
back, 24 in front.

24 x 100 = 2400
(16 x 100) + (16 x whatever average left side tension is on their
Aerohead OC/Formula wheel) = 2500ish

So it's pretty clear to me why those numbers work fine for him. I have
no idea if the same person answers their email.

It makes sense that a 32h Deep V could handle that, but this is
something to be aware of with getting tension specs from Velocity.

Ron Ruff said:

Look out for potholes, then!

Nah...if a pothole kills a wheel, it was a bad wheel and deserved to die ;-)

Someone anonymously said:

Quoted message said:

Look out for potholes, then!

Quoted message said:

Nah... if a pothole kills a wheel, it was a bad wheel and deserved
to die ;-)

From this I must assume you have no experience with potholes in paved
roads. Potholes generally break out one lift of asphalt, about 1.5 to
2.5 inches deep leaving a sharp demarcation (vertical step) at the
edge. Striking a pothole will put a sharp ding in the rim, whether
steel or aluminum, and generally cause a snake bite flat. Such an
event usually permanently damages a rim of any quality wheel build,
because that has nothing to do with the impact and subsequent rim
damage.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Someone anonymously said:

Quoted message said:

Look out for potholes, then!

Quoted message said:

Nah... if a pothole kills a wheel, it was a bad wheel and deserved
to die ;-)

From this I must assume you have no experience with potholes in paved
roads.

I think he was kidding.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Jobst Brandt said:

Someone anonymously said:

Quoted message said:

Look out for potholes, then!

Quoted message said:

Nah... if a pothole kills a wheel, it was a bad wheel and deserved
to die ;-)

From this I must assume you have no experience with potholes in paved
roads. Potholes generally break out one lift of asphalt, about 1.5 to
2.5 inches deep leaving a sharp demarcation (vertical step) at the
edge. Striking a pothole will put a sharp ding in the rim, whether
steel or aluminum, and generally cause a snake bite flat. Such an
event usually permanently damages a rim of any quality wheel build,
because that has nothing to do with the impact and subsequent rim
damage.

I have bent steel rims and broken tire cords hitting potholes at less
than 30-mph where I had 185/60 R-14 tires at 35 psi. (OK, so the weight
applied to the wheel is 10 to 15 times the average bicycle wheel, but
sidewall height is also that many times greater than a typical bicycle
tire.)

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

On 29 Jan 2006 18:59:42 -0800, "Mike Reed" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The build went smoothly, as these were probably my 14th and 15th wheels
over the years, but the first time with a tensiometer. Man, what a
great tool to have.

I thought that too about the Tensiometer. Now I pluck the spokes for
tone and put the guage on the wheel when I think I'm getting close.
It's still a great tool but I use if much less in the wheel building
process.

On 29 Jan 2006 21:20:07 -0800, "Nate Knutson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

It makes sense that a 32h Deep V could handle that, but this is
something to be aware of with getting tension specs from Velocity.

Doug knows quite a bit about their rims. I've laced the Aerohead OC
rims, 28, 32, 36 all with 100 kgf drive side. Not a single spoke pull
through yet.

Paul Kopit said:

On 29 Jan 2006 21:20:07 -0800, "Nate Knutson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

It makes sense that a 32h Deep V could handle that, but this is
something to be aware of with getting tension specs from Velocity.

Doug knows quite a bit about their rims. I've laced the Aerohead OC
rims, 28, 32, 36 all with 100 kgf drive side. Not a single spoke pull
through yet.

I'm talking about his recommendation to build a front 36h Aerohead at
100 kgf per spoke.

Quoted message said:

Striking a pothole will put a sharp ding in the rim, whether
steel or aluminum, and generally cause a snake bite flat. Such an
event usually permanently damages a rim of any quality wheel build,
because that has nothing to do with the impact and subsequent rim
damage.

Just out of curiosity, what would you expect the effect to be on a
carbon rim? I've never ridden one and would like to know how relatively
susceptible they are to damage.

anonymous said:

Quoted message said:

Striking a pothole will put a sharp ding in the rim, whether steel
or aluminum, and generally cause a snake bite flat. Such an event
usually permanently damages a rim of any quality wheel build,
because that has nothing to do with the impact and subsequent rim
damage.

Quoted message said:

Just out of curiosity, what would you expect the effect to be on a
carbon rim? I've never ridden one and would like to know how
relatively susceptible they are to damage.

Deformation would occur but it would not be plastic so I can imagine
that the wheel would crush itself, losing all spoke tension. I don't
know and don't expect to try it.

Jobst Brandt

Paul Kopit said:

Quoted message said:

The build went smoothly, as these were probably my 14th and 15th
wheels over the years, but the first time with a tensiometer. Man,
what a great tool to have.

Quoted message said:

I thought that too about the Tensiometer. Now I pluck the spokes
for tone and put the gauge on the wheel when I think I'm getting
close. It's still a great tool but I use if much less in the wheel
building process.

That's the way it was meant to be used, except for the tone deaf. Use
it to assess whether the wheel is tight enough, not whether the spokes
are equally tight.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Paul Kopit said:

I thought that too about the Tensiometer. Now I pluck the spokes
for tone and put the gauge on the wheel when I think I'm getting
close. It's still a great tool but I use if much less in the wheel
building process.

That's the way it was meant to be used, except for the tone deaf. Use
it to assess whether the wheel is tight enough, not whether the spokes
are equally tight.

See, I've built all of my previous wheels (only ~12) with the plucking
method, and I found it to be much faster this time to just use the
tensiometer on all the spokes. I have to go back and forth too many
times to get an idea of how much to adjust a spoke from tone alone.

Once I got to within 15kgf below final tension, I did three laps of the
wheel, using the tensiometer on every spoke. I moved each spoke closer
to where it needed to be, and ended up with a really consistent tension
after three laps. This took 5 minutes. When I finished, the tones were
much more consistent than I had ever been able to do with plucking
alone.

Plucking was always was too much one way or the other and felt too
hacky. I'm not entirely tone deaf, but it takes me a few plucks of the
reference and test spokes to guage how far out I am. Eventually I would
become impatient and frustrated.

Is there some problem with using a tensiometer on every spoke, or is it
just easier for some people to do it by tone instead?

Mike Reed said:

Quoted message said:

Paul Kopit said:

I thought that too about the Tensiometer. Now I pluck the spokes
for tone and put the gauge on the wheel when I think I'm getting
close. It's still a great tool but I use if much less in the
wheel building process.

That's the way it was meant to be used, except for the tone deaf.
Use it to assess whether the wheel is tight enough, not whether the
spokes are equally tight.

See, I've built all of my previous wheels (only ~12) with the
plucking method, and I found it to be much faster this time to just
use the tensiometer on all the spokes. I have to go back and forth
too many times to get an idea of how much to adjust a spoke from
tone alone.

What I do is choose a "master" spoke, in my case the right side spoke
at the valve hole so that it is easy to find. I use the tensiometer
to get the desired tension on that spoke, and then compare the other
spokes to that one by plucking and listening to tone. If the tone is
lower compared to the "master spoke" then I tighten; if higher, then I
loosen. Once a rev around I recheck the tension of the master spoke,
since each spoke affects each other spoke to an extent. It's dead
simple.

However, I'm also a guitarist and have a lot of practice listening to
relative pitch between vibrating wires, and adjusting that pitch to
match. FWIW, it's easier to match when you're bringing the tone up
from underneath- e.g., tuning up to rather than tuning down to. I
also don't obsess about it- close enough is close enough. I don't
worry if my wheels are within .005" inches of perfectly true. That
level of precision is just not necessary. I have friends who spend
hours truing with a dial gauge to get to that level. Yikes! Life is
just too short to waste time on that!

Mike Reed said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I thought that too about the Tensiometer. Now I pluck the spokes
for tone and put the gauge on the wheel when I think I'm getting
close. It's still a great tool but I use if much less in the
wheel building process.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's the way it was meant to be used, except for the tone deaf.
Use it to assess whether the wheel is tight enough, not whether the
spokes are equally tight.

Quoted message said:

See, I've built all of my previous wheels (only ~12) with the
plucking method, and I found it to be much faster this time to just
use the tensiometer on all the spokes. I have to go back and forth
too many times to get an idea of how much to adjust a spoke from
tone alone.

Quoted message said:

Once I got to within 15kgf below final tension, I did three laps of
the wheel, using the tensiometer on every spoke. I moved each spoke
closer to where it needed to be, and ended up with a really
consistent tension after three laps. This took 5 minutes. When I
finished, the tones were much more consistent than I had ever been
able to do with plucking alone.

Quoted message said:

Plucking was always was too much one way or the other and felt too
hacky. I'm not entirely tone deaf, but it takes me a few plucks of
the reference and test spokes to guage how far out I am. Eventually
I would become impatient and frustrated.

Quoted message said:

Is there some problem with using a tensiometer on every spoke, or is
it just easier for some people to do it by tone instead?

You must pick up the tensiometer, put it on the spoke, read the gauge
and either write it down or memorize it. Plucking adjacent spoke in
question requires about a second because your hands are already at
that spot in question.

Absolute values can best be assessed by tensiometer measurement.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Striking a pothole will put a sharp ding in the rim, whether
steel or aluminum, and generally cause a snake bite flat. Such an
event usually permanently damages a rim of any quality wheel build,
because that has nothing to do with the impact and subsequent rim
damage.

Just out of curiosity, what would you expect the effect to be on a
carbon rim? I've never ridden one and would like to know how relatively
susceptible they are to damage.

Brandt has a very specific description of pothole so this may not be
what you are looking for, but as one data point I went off the road at
about 30mph high speed a few years. I assume I started braking and was
slowing downh when I hit a large rock with my front wheel. The rear
wheel of my bike came about a foot off the ground and then I stopped
-- got a foot out just in time to not fall over.

The incident put a large slit completely across the top of my tire --
like a huge snakebite -- and the tube also had a large hole. The rim,
a Zipp 330 carbon rim, was undamaged.

JT

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