New Lemonds

Quoted message said:

The top tube, top of the seat tube, and seat stays are carbon, the rest 853, and price is up $400.
Saves 1/2 a pound.

The geometry is supposed to be the same, but the frame looks different. The top tube isn't
horizontal any more, but slopes down a little

Say it isn't so. No more excellent steel bikes at a fair price. It's the bike makers trying to get
everyone on beer can bikes

Not true. They still make full steel and full Ti bikes. They're now known as the 'classic' series.
Avoid any carbon/steel/al/ti if at all possible.

Jon

"Jkpoulos7" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The top tube, top of the seat tube, and seat stays are carbon, the rest 853, and price is up
$400. Saves 1/2 a pound.

The geometry is supposed to be the same, but the frame looks different. The top tube isn't
horizontal any more, but slopes down a little

Say it isn't so. No more excellent steel bikes at a fair price. It's the

bike

Quoted message said:

makers trying to get everyone on beer can bikes

Quoted message said:

From: [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Say it isn't so. No more excellent steel bikes at a fair price. It's the bike makers trying to get
everyone on beer can bikes

And the silly people with money who won't be seen on anything less.

Sig Chicago

If it were just discovered, steel would be the latest and greatest material.

Jkpoulos7 said:

Quoted message said:

The top tube, top of the seat tube, and seat stays are carbon, the rest 853, and price is up $400.
Saves 1/2 a pound.

The geometry is supposed to be the same, but the frame looks different. The top tube isn't
horizontal any more, but slopes down a little

Say it isn't so. No more excellent steel bikes at a fair price. It's the

bike

Quoted message said:

makers trying to get everyone on beer can bikes

--
Mark Wolfe wolfenet.orgwolfenet.orgOpen ↗ gpg fingerprint = 42B6 EFEB 5414 AA18 01B7 64AC EF46 F7E6 82F6
8C71 A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops. On my desk I have a
workstation....

Quoted message said:

Not true. They still make full steel and full Ti bikes. They're now

known

Quoted message said:

as the 'classic' series. Avoid any carbon/steel/al/ti if at all possible.

You'll want to ride one of the new Buenos Aires or Zurichs before you write off the steel/carbon
combo. I had the opportunity to test-ride one fairly extensively in Wisconsin a couple weeks ago...
I really didn't want to like
it... but I did. In fact, I found I preferred the ride of the steel/carbon Zurich to the ti/carbon
Tete de Course. My guess is that people are going to be very surprised by how nicely the new
bikes ride.

At the lower end, it's true, the steel bikes are gone, and the "classic" series are basically just
frames or project-one configurations, which gets a bit expensive. There are many dealers (including
us) putting the pressure on to bring back a couple of nice steel bikes in the $1000-$1400 price
range. Cross your fingers!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

In article <ZSK6b.10430$Fe6.8788@pd7tw2no>,

Jon said:

Not true. They still make full steel and full Ti bikes. They're now known as the 'classic' series.
Avoid any carbon/steel/al/ti if at all possible.

Jon

I must have missed the classic series, or it wasn't in the catalog I saw. I think I did see one of
the low end bikes (Nevada City?) has the 853 select frame (853 with 525 stays). I didn't see any 853
Pro frame bikes in the catalog.

Hopefully they haven't discontinued the old frames. I would rather have a 2003 Zurich than a 2004.

"Mark Heiple" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was at the LBS looking at pedals, and he was showing me a catalog for the 2004 Lemonds.

The upper end bikes have switched to a carbon/853 frame, and some of the lower end frames are now
aluminum (he had a 2004 aluminium Tourmalet on the floor). The Ti bikes might be carbon/Ti.

I was primarily interested in the Zurich:

The top tube, top of the seat tube, and seat stays are carbon, the rest 853, and price is up $400.
Saves 1/2 a pound.

I doubt it saves that much, or anything significant.

We were just talking about this after a ride today -- that the price hike may have boosted the
Zurich, a best-selling model, out of its usual buyers' price range.

Quoted message said:

The geometry is supposed to be the same, but the frame looks different. The top tube isn't
horizontal any more, but slopes down a little toward the seat tube.

Yeah, sloping top tubes are in vogue these days. So are those silly carbon chainstays.

I think non-silliness and lack of gimmickry has been a major part of Lemonds' appeal. I bet they're
shooting themselves in the foot with this one.

Matt O.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

At the lower end, it's true, the steel bikes are gone, and the "classic" series are basically just
frames or project-one configurations, which gets a bit expensive. There are many dealers
(including us) putting the pressure on to bring back a couple of nice steel bikes in the
$1000-$1400 price range. Cross your fingers!

Well, they lost me as a customer awhile ago. There are plenty of good used bikes out there anyway...

Matt O.

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah, sloping top tubes are in vogue these days. So are those silly

carbon

Quoted message said:

chainstays.

My bike (not a Lemond, btw) does NOT have silly carbon chainstays.

It has silly carbon SEAT stays.

Bill "so there! pppllllll" S.

I just saw a new Jamis bike. It was the same way, a combination of steel and carbon.

Mark Heiple said:

I was at the LBS looking at pedals, and he was showing me a catalog for the 2004 Lemonds.

The upper end bikes have switched to a carbon/853 frame, and some of the lower end frames are now
aluminum (he had a 2004 aluminium Tourmalet on the floor). The Ti bikes might be carbon/Ti.

I was primarily interested in the Zurich:

The top tube, top of the seat tube, and seat stays are carbon, the rest 853, and price is up $400.
Saves 1/2 a pound.

The geometry is supposed to be the same, but the frame looks different. The top tube isn't
horizontal any more, but slopes down a little toward the seat tube.

getawaybikes.comDetail.cfmOpen ↗
N=41889937

Quoted message said:

At the lower end, it's true, the steel bikes are gone, and the "classic" series are basically just
frames or project-one configurations, which gets a bit expensive. There are many dealers
(including us) putting the pressure on to bring back a couple of nice steel bikes in the
$1000-$1400 price range. Cross your fingers!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I doubt it saves that much, or anything significant.

Keep in mind how much of the steel has been replaced by carbon... top tube, seat tube, head tube,
seat stays. Actually, it would be more accurate to say that 3/4 of the main triangle tubes have been
replaced, not the entire tube. It's enough for significant weight savings, as they're using what
appears to be the same carbon top section found on the Tete de Course.

Quoted message said:

We were just talking about this after a ride today -- that the price hike

may

Quoted message said:

have boosted the Zurich, a best-selling model, out of its usual buyers'

price

Quoted message said:

range.

A definite possibility in terms of someone looking specifically for a Zurich, but they'll also have
a similar Buenos Aires for about $1800 (a bit less than the '03 Zurich, with mostly Ultegra
equipment. Still, it's a gamble that people will prefer upgraded frames over components at a given
price. You may argue that it's not actually upgraded, but I'd suggest you try one out. I was
pleasantly surprised; I'm normally not a fan of steel bikes (and it's not as if I don't have a
zillion miles experience on them) compared to carbon, but the ride of the Zurich... all I can say is
that I was very much surprised.

I do have the same concerns as you regarding whether they priced themselves beyond a good chunk of
the market, and I'd still like to see some moderately-priced all-steel bikes. Doesn't matter what
*I* think of them... if people want to buy them, I'd like to sell them. For purely altruistic
reasons, of course!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

getawaybikes.comDetail.cfmOpen ↗
&CFID=2959208&CFTOKEN=41889937

I find it sad the way names that used to be associated with high-end craftsmanship have been
sold/stolen/borrowed/whatever by people who simply contract with a Taiwan or Chinese manufacturer
for a basically stock catalog bike and slap a name on it. Tomasso is just one example (and one that
I wasn't previously aware of!); there are many others.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

I think if I went for a new steel ride, it'd be a Waterford, Heron, Richard Sachs, or Rivendell.
Probably in that order too, budget and patience permitting. 🙂

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

getawaybikes.comDetail.cfmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

&CFID=2959208&CFTOKEN=41889937

I find it sad the way names that used to be associated with high-end craftsmanship have been
sold/stolen/borrowed/whatever by people who simply contract with a Taiwan or Chinese manufacturer
for a basically stock

catalog

Quoted message said:

bike and slap a name on it. Tomasso is just one example (and one that I wasn't previously aware
of!); there are many others.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

--
Mark Wolfe wolfenet.orgwolfenet.orgOpen ↗ gpg fingerprint = 42B6 EFEB 5414 AA18 01B7 64AC EF46 F7E6 82F6
8C71 The angels want to wear my red shoes.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

A definite possibility in terms of someone looking specifically for a Zurich, but they'll also
have a similar Buenos Aires for about $1800 (a bit less than the '03 Zurich, with mostly Ultegra
equipment. Still, it's a gamble that people will prefer upgraded frames over components at a
given price.

Personally, I think most LeMond buyers like them because of the retro "steel is real" and the
reasonable prices. Both those reasons are disappearing with the new LeMond models. Maybe the high
tech nerd market is bigger, but there is a lot of competition there. Instead of a half steel, half
carbon bike, why not buy a full carbon or full titanium bike for not much more money? Doesn't make
sense to me.

mark-<< I was at the LBS looking at pedals, and he was showing me a catalog for

the 2004 Lemonds.

The upper end bikes have switched to a carbon/853 frame, and some of the lower end frames are now
aluminum (he had a 2004 aluminium Tourmalet on the floor). The Ti bikes might be carbon/Ti.

I was primarily interested in the Zurich:

The top tube, top of the seat tube, and seat stays are carbon, the rest 853, and price is up $400.
Saves 1/2 a pound.

The geometry is supposed to be the same, but the frame looks different. The top tube isn't
horizontal any more, but slopes down a little toward the seat tube. >><BR><BR>

And the marketing 'suit' is dancing up and down....

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Mark Wolfe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think if I went for a new steel ride, it'd be a Waterford, Heron, Richard Sachs, or Rivendell.
Probably in that order too, budget and patience permitting. 🙂

I'm in the same camp. Newer, mainstream bikes don't appeal to me at all. I can't stand the gimmicky
frame designs, wacky wheels, and garish paint jobs. However, even though I lust after a Waterford or
a fillet brazed Ritchey, I could never justify spending what these bikes cost (new, anyway). To me,
even mainstream road bikes are way overpriced, considering what they are -- a few tubes welded
together, with some equally overpriced components bolted on. Mountain bikes are much more reasonably
priced, having felt the heat of competition. My next road bike, which I am shopping for right now,
will be a used one.

Matt O.

It seems very odd that LeMond bikes would use carbon/steel and carbon/titanium and aluminum frames.
Its as if Trek, the owner of Trek, LeMond, and Klein road bikes, became confused and decided to make
their own companies compete with each other over the same customers. Just like GM did/does with all
of its identical Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Olds models.

Trek has all carbon and all aluminum bikes. Klein has all aluminum and aluminum/carbon bikes. LeMond
has all aluminum and carbon/steel and titanium/carbon bikes. And apparently all steel bikes if you
go through the trouble of making your bike shop order you a custom built model. Some differences
between the three companies, but quite a bit of similarity. They no longer serve a separate customer
base. They are all serving the latest and greatest high tech market.

Mark Heiple <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I was at the LBS looking at pedals, and he was showing me a catalog for the 2004 Lemonds.

The upper end bikes have switched to a carbon/853 frame, and some of the lower end frames are now
aluminum (he had a 2004 aluminium Tourmalet on the floor). The Ti bikes might be carbon/Ti.

I was primarily interested in the Zurich:

The top tube, top of the seat tube, and seat stays are carbon, the rest 853, and price is up $400.
Saves 1/2 a pound.

The geometry is supposed to be the same, but the frame looks different. The top tube isn't
horizontal any more, but slopes down a little toward the seat tube.

Quoted message said:

Trek has all carbon and all aluminum bikes. Klein has all aluminum and aluminum/carbon bikes.
LeMond has all aluminum and carbon/steel and titanium/carbon bikes. And apparently all steel bikes
if you go through the trouble of making your bike shop order you a custom built model. Some
differences between the three companies, but quite a bit of similarity. They no longer serve a
separate customer base. They are all serving the latest and greatest high tech market.

There is no question that they want to go where the market (numbers) are, and, to some extent, that
will result in a fair amount of cross-pollination between lines. This happens everywhere...
identities become vague or lost over time as change occurs. Look at the various "classic" bikes of
yesteryear, and what they've become today. Even Masi morphed in some very peculiar ways at a
relatively young age. And the "classic" appeal of steel wasn't enough to stop the rush of carbon
forks, yet very few seemed to object to them (outside of a small number of very passionate folk
here, of course!).

Your point is valid, but it's not entirely correct regarding LeMond, Klein and TREK, given that each
has a very unique ride based upon differences in geometry, and that's going to make for a different
experience on each bike, regardless of materials used. It's a very rare customer that test-rides an
identically (and I do mean identically, right down to the wheels and air pressure in the tires) set
up TREK and Klein and can't tell the difference or doesn't have a preference.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"Russell Seaton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems very odd that LeMond bikes would use carbon/steel and carbon/titanium and aluminum
frames. Its as if Trek, the owner of Trek, LeMond, and Klein road bikes, became confused and
decided to make their own companies compete with each other over the same customers. Just like GM
did/does with all of its identical Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Olds models.

Trek has all carbon and all aluminum bikes. Klein has all aluminum and aluminum/carbon bikes.
LeMond has all aluminum and carbon/steel and titanium/carbon bikes. And apparently all steel bikes
if you go through the trouble of making your bike shop order you a custom built model. Some
differences between the three companies, but quite a bit of similarity. They no longer serve a
separate customer base. They are all serving the latest and greatest high tech market.

Mark Heiple <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was at the LBS looking at pedals, and he was showing me a catalog for the 2004 Lemonds.

The upper end bikes have switched to a carbon/853 frame, and some of the lower end frames are
now aluminum (he had a 2004 aluminium Tourmalet on the floor). The Ti bikes might be carbon/Ti.

I was primarily interested in the Zurich:

The top tube, top of the seat tube, and seat stays are carbon, the rest 853, and price is up
$400. Saves 1/2 a pound.

The geometry is supposed to be the same, but the frame looks different. The top tube isn't
horizontal any more, but slopes down a little toward the seat tube.