Cadence question

tjodit said:

I can only ride with a max cadence of about 80...faster than that I feel like I'm bouncing all over the place. How do you increase your cadence and pedal smoothly?

When on a group ride if I'm behind somone I can't match their cadence so I end up shifting to a harder gear and then I have to keep coasting to keep from hitting their tire.

How can I learn to pedal faster and smoother?

short, sweet, and to the point. i know its what we all love 🙂

-if you feel like you're bouncing above 80rpms, sounds like you need more resistance or your seat's too high
-why can't you match the person in front of you's cadence? ...meaning lets say they're at 90rpms? maybe your problem in that situation might be pedalling with too much force/power. just do whatever you can do (if you cant keep the cadence) in order to continue to pedal.
-a great exercise to practice your spinning technique is to do isolated leg drills inside on a trainer or spinning bike. have your bike on a relatively easy gear, take one foot out and either rest it on the apex of your trainer or a chair. keep a cadence of 75-80, do 1-2:00 each leg, spin with both for about :10, then switch again. do 2-3 sets. its a great workout. it teaches you to spin a circle and it helps with the dead spot at the top of the spin.

It's best to slowly increase in steps. Try a going up to 85 and when you're comfortable with that go up to 90. It took me around 2-3 weeks at each higher cadence before I felt OK.

Also check your saddle height, if you're bouncing it might be too high.

Equus123 said:

short, sweet, and to the point. i know its what we all love 🙂

-if you feel like you're bouncing above 80rpms, sounds like you need more resistance or your seat's too high
-why can't you match the person in front of you's cadence? ...meaning lets say they're at 90rpms? maybe your problem in that situation might be pedalling with too much force/power. just do whatever you can do (if you cant keep the cadence) in order to continue to pedal.
-a great exercise to practice your spinning technique is to do isolated leg drills inside on a trainer or spinning bike. have your bike on a relatively easy gear, take one foot out and either rest it on the apex of your trainer or a chair. keep a cadence of 75-80, do 1-2:00 each leg, spin with both for about :10, then switch again. do 2-3 sets. its a great workout. it teaches you to spin a circle and it helps with the dead spot at the top of the spin.

I can't match their cadence because they are in an easier gear and spinning faster. I'm bouncing because I'm not pedaling in a circle. I have to shift to a harder gear in order to pedal smoothly but then I start to overtake them and have to coast.

Would it be helpful to pedal at a slower cadence in an easy gear just to get my pedal stroke smooth? It's when I'm in a higher gear than what I really want that I don't pedal smoothly. If I downshift my stroke is smooth but then I'm going too fast to stay behind someone.

tjodit said:

Would it be helpful to pedal at a slower cadence in an easy gear just to get my pedal stroke smooth? It's when I'm in a higher gear than what I really want that I don't pedal smoothly. If I downshift my stroke is smooth but then I'm going too fast to stay behind someone.

hmm. separate from the group ride scenario....with the bouncing/uncomfortableness with a high cadence - lets say your riding on a comfortable gear, holding 75rpms, and then you have to do a 5 minute interval at 85rpms. my question to you is do you shift lighter to get your 85? Or do you keep the gear but turn up the cadence?

if you change gears while picking up cadence, you'll be losing a ton of resistance. so if you're doing that, then i can definately see why you may be bouncing in the saddle. its a similar occurance as when doing "spin ups". for those, you keep a fixed gear, pick a starting cadence (lets say 90), spin up to your max cadence and then hold it for 30 seconds. while being at that max, you'll be bumping like crazy in the saddle because of the power you've created from such a high cadence, there isn't enough resistance fighting against you and this results in the bouncing. from my perspective, from what you've said, it seems most similar to this.

in terms of moving forward, i suggest putting in a lot of time at a high cadence. as someone mentioned above, i definately agree that it doesn't necessarily feel natural or completely comfortable spinning 90+ rpms. it takes practice. it sounds like you have a good spin at a low cadence and hard gear so spend your time concentrating on the faster stuff. in addition to the isolated leg drills, there's all kinds of stuff you can do to improve the "roundness" of your spin.

just do a google search for "cycling and spin drills" etc. here's an example... endurancecoach.comSpin to Win.htmOpen ↗

or something like this... rice.edubikespin.htmlOpen ↗

There's a whole lot of little muscles that have to be developed to have a really smooth stroke. If you're bouncing above 80, it might be because you're used to mashing, or only putting power on the downstroke. You've gotta learn to use all the muscles to power all the way through each pedal stroke. As mentioned by other posters, try to increase your cadence slowly, and control the entire revolution. I love watching some of the pros with their impossibly smooth cadence, it's freakin spooky. It's also cool to see all those little muscles popping out of weird places in their legs.

Equus123 said:

.. there isn't enough resistance fighting against you and this results in the bouncing. from my perspective, from what you've said, it seems most similar to this.

Yes, that's it...there isn't enough resistance for me when I try to spin at a higher cadence so I change gears to increase the resistance and then am having to coast to stay in line. I don't have an indoor trainer so I'll have to try the drills while on my bike outdoors. Thanks for the links. I'll try to do what they suggest.

Dr.Hairybiker said:

You've gotta learn to use all the muscles to power all the way through each pedal stroke. As mentioned by other posters, try to increase your cadence slowly, and control the entire revolution.

That's exactly what I need to do. Thanks for the input.

I think it is silly to develope a higher cadense just for the cadense's sake. It depends partly on the strength of your leg muscles. However if you perform better at a lower cadense that is the cadense for you. Be happy with it. A cadense of 80 sounds high enough to me.

Robert Gardner said:

I think it is silly to develope a higher cadense just for the cadense's sake. It depends partly on the strength of your leg muscles. However if you perform better at a lower cadense that is the cadense for you. Be happy with it. A cadense of 80 sounds high enough to me.

to play devil's advocate....then what does she do in a paceline?

Robert Gardner said:

I think it is silly to develope a higher cadense just for the cadense's sake. It depends partly on the strength of your leg muscles. However if you perform better at a lower cadense that is the cadense for you. Be happy with it. A cadense of 80 sounds high enough to me.

Not that I'll ever be more than a recreational cyclist, but why then do all the top riders strive for a 100+ cadence? I've always thought it's because the legs will last longer that way...they can use an easier gear but since their cadence is so fast they still maintain their speed. Am I totally off base on this?

tjodit said:

Not that I'll ever be more than a recreational cyclist, but why then do all the top riders strive for a 100+ cadence? I've always thought it's because the legs will last longer that way...they can use an easier gear but since their cadence is so fast they still maintain their speed. Am I totally off base on this?

heres what i think is applicable from this article, trifuel.comcycling cadence and pedaling economy 001048.phpOpen ↗

"Spinning at higher cadences reduces the watts-per-pedal-stroke, a measure of the force required to produce a given wattage. This makes the workload more tolerable for the muscles. Most experts believe that this is because fewer fast-twitch muscle fibers must be recruited to create the high torque levels required at low cadence. Pedaling with a too-low cadence increases reliance on fast twitch fibers, causing premature lactic acid accumulation, which makes your legs burn.

High-cadence pedaling works your cardiovascular system more, but reduces the relative intensity of the leg muscles. The key, then, is pedaling with enough cadence to keep your watts-per-pedal-stroke at a level that your muscles can handle, but at a cadence that will not overload your cardiovascular system. The optimal balance is different for every rider.

Each cyclist brings a unique set of genetics and training to the sport. The basic rules are, if your legs hurt more than your lungs, increase cadence. If your lungs hurt more than your legs, use a lower cadence.

If you decide that higher cadence pedaling might be more effective for you, now is the time to accustom your body to the different demands. Until you have learned the skills to pedal at very high cadence for long periods of time, you will be less efficient.

Give high-cadence time: If you decide that higher race cadence might work for you, understand that it may take months for your legs to develop the skills to create wattage efficiently at higher cadence. Cardiovascular conditioning also takes time to develop, so start well before the season and be patient."

Robert Gardner said:

I think it is silly to develope a higher cadense just for the cadense's sake. It depends partly on the strength of your leg muscles. However if you perform better at a lower cadense that is the cadense for you. Be happy with it. A cadense of 80 sounds high enough to me.

Also to play devil's advocate - a slow cadence is usually more comfortable feeling for most people as beginners, but is also a really good way to hurt your knees - ie mashing - so even if you think you perform better at lower cadences you may be hurting yourself in the long run. - confessions of a former masher..... I've recently gotten a new better fitting bike and learned to spin much much better and I can say that it has helped my performance - especially on hills.

A couple of good tips I've picked up recently. One does require a trainer - the other just some prudence.
One legged drills (Equus mentioned this one too) are really good for developing a smooth pedal stroke. If you can try these stationary at first I would recommend it, but they can be done on the road if you are careful. Its just what it sounds like, you pedal with one leg only. It really trains your legs to use the whole revolution and strengthens the muscles you need for the upstroke.
The next one I just got from another thread here about weather or not you need a wheel block on your trainer. One person suggested putting a scale under your front wheel and trying to keep the needle as still as possible - I tried this last night and WOW - the feed back is great. It really helps to me visualize and concentrate on nice smooth pedal strokes without a lot of upper body motion.
Stationary trainers in general, in my opinion, are really good tools for practicing your spin so if you can find one that is reasonably priced go for it - like a used one off of craigslist - I got mine for $35 and its even a good one (cyclops fluid) if a little used.

As for riding in a paceline another good skill to learn is "soft pedaling" ease up your pedal stroke so that you are still spinning but not putting any real pressure on the pedals (you don't have to do this fast, just spin the pedals slowly in place of coasting)- this way you are still turning the pedals and can react better to changes in the speed of the paceline.

Equus-that was a good article. Confirmed what I had thought too.

Eden said:

A couple of good tips I've picked up recently. One does require a trainer - the other just some prudence. One legged drills (Equus mentioned this one too) are really good for developing a smooth pedal stroke. If you can try these stationary at first I would recommend it, but they can be done on the road if you are careful. Its just what it sounds like, you pedal with one leg only. It really trains your legs to use the whole revolution and strengthens the muscles you need for the upstroke.

Stationary trainers in general, in my opinion, are really good tools for practicing your spin so if you can find one that is reasonably priced go for it - like a used one off of craigslist - I got mine for $35 and its even a good one (cyclops fluid) if a little used.

When you are doing the one leg drill should you shift into an easier gear or use the same gear you were using with both legs?

Also, what is craigslist? Never heard of it. I'd buy a trainer if I could get one for that price!

tjodit said:

Equus-that was a good article. Confirmed what I had thought too.

When you are doing the one leg drill should you shift into an easier gear or use the same gear you were using with both legs?

Also, what is craigslist? Never heard of it. I'd buy a trainer if I could get one for that price!

I usually shift down at least one gear to do one leg drills. I can't keep it up very long either. Maybe 15-30 secs/ leg, a little longer if I shift down more, and I've been doing them for a while now (I switch legs when my pedal stroke gets choppy)

Craig's list (www.craigslist.com) is kind of like the Little Nickle ads of the internet, it's place for people to post all kinds of things they are selling or that they want, as well as community forums and job posting etc. There are several Texas cities listed so hopefully there is one close to you. For my trainer I placed a Wanted to Buy ad and had someone reply, so never fear if you don't see exactly what you want.

Eden said:

I usually shift down at least one gear to do one leg drills. I can't keep it up very long either. Maybe 15-30 secs/ leg, a little longer if I shift down more, and I've been doing them for a while now (I switch legs when my pedal stroke gets choppy)

Let me make sure I have this straight...you said you down shift ...so that means putting the bike in a harder gear, right? The lower the gear the harder it is to pedal. Sorry, but I don't want to hurt a knee ...so I want to be sure I understand you correctly.

tjodit said:

Let me make sure I have this straight...you said you down shift ...so that means putting the bike in a harder gear, right? The lower the gear the harder it is to pedal. Sorry, but I don't want to hurt a knee ...so I want to be sure I understand you correctly.

eek no! I shift to an easier gear. Forgive me if my terminology is confusing.

here is the workout i do for isolated leg drills. there are 2 different sets. if you were to break up my workout into 8 sections, these would be sections 3 & 7. ...basically don't do them first and don't do them last.

here's what i do for them:

Set 1 (i.e. section 3) - 75-80rpms
**spin about :10 with both legs before switching sides**
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg

Set 2 (i.e. section 7) - 75-80rpms
**spin about :10 with both legs before switching sides**
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg

translated to 1 or 2 minutes of spinning (with a 10 second transition period spinning both legs) with just one leg clicked in keeping 75-80rpms and riding the small (for 2 front chain rings) or middle (for 3 front chain rings) ring in the front and approx the left of middle section of the cog in the back. if you can't keep that gear, switch up (easier). the important thing is to keep the cadence. its going to be hard though. ...specially if you're new to this type of drill. it will make a huge difference though. trust me.

Cool! Something to do on the bike besides just ride. Since these are your sections 3 and 7 what do you suggest I do before doing these? Just ride for 30 minutes or so? Would you do any interval work on the same day that you do isolated leg drills? This was a very good explanation...I still have trouble understanding some of the lingo but this was very clear. Thank you very much!

Equus123 said:

here is the workout i do for isolated leg drills. there are 2 different sets. if you were to break up my workout into 8 sections, these would be sections 3 & 7. ...basically don't do them first and don't do them last.

here's what i do for them:

Set 1 (i.e. section 3) - 75-80rpms
**spin about :10 with both legs before switching sides**
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg

Set 2 (i.e. section 7) - 75-80rpms
**spin about :10 with both legs before switching sides**
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg

translated to 1 or 2 minutes of spinning (with a 10 second transition period spinning both legs) with just one leg clicked in keeping 75-80rpms and riding the small (for 2 front chain rings) or middle (for 3 front chain rings) ring in the front and approx the left of middle section of the cog in the back. if you can't keep that gear, switch up (easier). the important thing is to keep the cadence. its going to be hard though. ...specially if you're new to this type of drill. it will make a huge difference though. trust me.

alright. here's the deal. i'll share the workout that i did last sunday. please do not replicate this anywhere. just use it as an example of a workout that someone can do that encorporates endurance, leg speed, and muscular strength. i'm on a cycling team and my coach would not appreciate his work going elsewhere. (i'm omitting some of the detail) thank you...

5:00 warmup
5:00 seated hill build up (1:00 on gear A, B, C, D, E)
3:00 easy spin
5:00 standing hill build up (same gear succession as first set)
3:00 easy spin
1:30 spin ups (:30 @ 90-100-110 rpms)
3:00 easy spin
1:30 spin ups (:30 @ 90-100-110 rpms)
3:00 easy spin
1:30 spin ups (:30 @ 90-100-110 rpms)
3:00 easy spin
1:30 spin ups (:30 @ 90-100-110 rpms)
3:00 easy spin
1:30 spin ups (:30 @ 90-100-110 rpms)
3:00 easy spin
2:00 seated big gear climb (gear A)
2:00 standing little gear climb (gear B)
2:00 seated big gear climb (gear A)
2:00 standing little gear climb (gear B)
2:00 seated big gear climb (gear A)
2:00 standing little gear climb (gear B)
3:00 easy spin
8:00 isolated leg (2:00 each leg, same gear throughout)
3:00 easy spin
6:00 seated steady climb (2:00 on gear A, B, C)
3:00 easy spin
6:00 standing steady climb (same succession as above)
3:00 easy spin
4:00 isolated leg (2:00 each leg, same gear throughout)
3:00 easy spin
5:30 spin ups (:45 @ 90 then :15 @ 100-110-120)
cool down