Shift Levers - Continuous vs. Indexed

Robert Scott said:

with friction hold. I've had enough experience with various indexed shifters to distrust their
calibration stability.

If so, I'd say your experience is out of date. I am impressed by how well modern indexing with
integrated levers works.

I, too, was used to friction levers. But remember the things you no longer think about: friction
levers working loose on a ride, having to over shift and go back, the noisy clatter when it's not
aligned right. Sure, you can fix those things, but don't idealize friction shifting as trouble-free.

With my "brifters" (as Sheldon Brown calls them), I can shift while standing, shifts are accurate
each and every time. Never a missed shift. Adjustment was much easier than I expected. I use Campy
Ergo, which also are easily repairable. STI really aren't, which IMO is a disadvantage.

Check these things out before you dismiss them.

Quoted message said:

With continuous shift levers I never have to worry about that because I can constantly compensate
for cable stretch and hysteresis

You can, and you have to. Well, not cable stretch. Cables don't stretch. That is really slipping
friction control. You probably use bar-ends, which were notoriously inaccurate because of the long
cable runs. Newer cables are better. At least try them.

Quoted message said:

until the chain sounds right. Am I hopelessly out of date? Or are there others who insist on
simple continuous shift levers?

They are not really all that simple. You have to listen to the drive train all the time, and adjust
frequently. You can't shift under even modest load, and missed shifts are common.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | We have a record of conquest, colonization and expansion _`\(,_ | unequalled by any people
in the Nineteenth Century. We are not (_)/ (_) | to be curbed now. --Henry Cabot Lodge, 1895

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Robert Scott) said:

I was disappointed to see that bikes with indexed shift levers are the only kind that are
generally available. I want the old-fashioned continuous levers with friction hold.

The Dura-Ace barend shifters have an indexed and a friction mode. You can switch between the modes
by rotating a dial in the shifter.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

"Robert Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wanting to replace my falling-apart 15-year old no-name touring bike with something new, I visited
the bike shops around Ann Arbor. I was disappointed to see that bikes with indexed shift levers
are the only kind that are generally available. I want the old-fashioned continuous levers with
friction hold. I've had enough experience with various indexed shifters to distrust their
calibration stability. With continuous shift levers I never have to worry about that because I can
constantly compensate for cable stretch and hysteresis by moving the shift lever until the chain
sounds right. Am I hopelessly out of date? Or are there others who insist on simple continuous
shift levers?

Robert, you are definitely not alone. There are many who have discovered (or rediscovered) the joys
of friction shifting. My decidedly non-retrogrouch wife is among them. Recently, she wanted to
switch to a lighter, faster freehub setup (from the old 6-speed freewheel) on her good old Univega
road bike, and all I had to work with were her original 6-speed downtube SIS shifters. After messing
around for hours trying to get them to index properly with a 7-speed cassette, I gave up and put the
SIS shifters into friction mode. I didn't think she'd like it; but she LOVED it. Now she snicks
through the gears like a champ. She even commented on how silky smooth friction shifting feels. When
I told her about the other options (bar-cons, STI) and how much they cost, she said she preferred
the friction shifters. Can't say I blame her.

She hears me cussing my 2003 Ultegra STI shifters all the time! I'm not happy with STI at all. When
I go back to friction shifting, I realize why so many riders love it. I've ridden 9-speed setups in
friction mode (bar-con shifters); and it's not too bad. I'd say that 8-speed cassettes are my
comfortable maximum for friction shifting, though.

Have a look at this Grant Peterson article from the Rivendell website on the topic of various
shifters. Grant loves friction shifters, as this article makes clear:

rivendellbicycles.com101 shifters.htmlOpen ↗

Barry

My new bike has indexed shifting (i think that is what its called) I kinda miss being able to shift
with my nuckles and listening for the "clunk" or "rattle". Now i have to think - do I use my thumb
or finger to shift.... maybe i have to work on my coordination.

take care Liz

Hey! Look what [email hidden] (Robert Scott) wrote :

Quoted message said:

Wanting to replace my falling-apart 15-year old no-name touring bike with something new, I visited
the bike shops around Ann Arbor. I was disappointed to see that bikes with indexed shift levers are
the only kind that are generally available. I want the old-fashioned continuous levers with
friction hold. I've had enough experience with various indexed shifters to distrust their
calibration stability. With continuous shift levers I never have to worry about that because I can
constantly compensate for cable stretch and hysteresis by moving the shift lever until the chain
sounds right. Am I hopelessly out of date? Or are there others who insist on simple continuous
shift levers?

-Robert Scott Ypsilanti, Michigan (Reply through newsgroups, not by direct e-mail, as automatic
reply address is fake.)

Robert Scott said:

I've had enough experience with various indexed shifters to distrust their calibration stability.

I haven't had any calibration stability problems with my circa 1988 Dura-Ace 7-speed downtube
shifters. Getting them adjusted properly in the first place was a little tricky but once I had them
dialed in they stayed. The front shifter is still friction which is nice considering that I have to
trim it with respect the gear choice on the rear cluster.

Quoted message said:

With continuous shift levers I never have to worry about that because I can constantly compensate
for cable stretch and hysteresis by moving the shift lever until the chain sounds right.

I don't worry about this with indexed shifting at all. It hasn't been a problem over many thousands
of miles of riding. I'm told that newer indexed systems are even better.

Quoted message said:

Am I hopelessly out of date?

Maybe.

Quoted message said:

Or are there others who insist on simple continuous shift levers?

Not many. Once you get a good working index system, it's not a problem and it's much easier to get
the shift right quickly. No overshift and then trimming (on the back at least for me).

I believe that Shimano's downtube and bar end shifters can be put into friction mode (mine can). If
you want downtube or bar ends, that could be the way to go--or you could retrofit some used
shifters. A good shop will replace the shifters for you (for a fee, I'm sure). You won't find
friction shifters on pre-built new bikes anywhere. You might find some touring bikes with bar ends
that may have a friction mode. That's about it. Almost everyone prefers indexed shifting.

I used ot use friction exclusively. Then I had indexed for many years. A while back I bought an old
used bike for the frame that had Super-Record components. I rode it for a while on the SR
components and even though they were worn, they worked great. I still missed the indexing. It's
just a lot easier.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now

"Robert Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wanting to replace my falling-apart 15-year old no-name touring bike with something new, I visited
the bike shops around Ann Arbor. I was disappointed to see that bikes with indexed shift levers
are the only kind that are generally available. I want the old-fashioned continuous levers with
friction hold. I've had enough experience with various indexed shifters to distrust their
calibration stability. With continuous shift levers I never have to worry about that because I can
constantly compensate for cable stretch and hysteresis by moving the shift lever until the chain
sounds right. Am I hopelessly out of date?

Yes.

I have used Shimano bar-end indexed shifters for 7 or so years now. I don't recall a single shifting
problem. I still have at least one bike with friction shifting, it's a nuisance by comparison. Index
shifting is fast and accurate, one of the very few true improvements in the last couple of decades.

(Robert Scott) said:

Wanting to replace my falling-apart 15-year old no-name touring bike with something new, I visited
the bike shops around Ann Arbor. I was disappointed to see that bikes with indexed shift levers are
the only kind that are generally available. I want the old-fashioned continuous levers with
friction hold. I've had enough experience with various indexed shifters to distrust their
calibration stability. With continuous shift levers I never have to worry about that because I can
constantly compensate for cable stretch and hysteresis by moving the shift lever until the chain
sounds right. Am I hopelessly out of date? Or are there others who insist on simple continuous
shift levers?

-Robert Scott Ypsilanti, Michigan (Reply through newsgroups, not by direct e-mail, as automatic
reply address is fake.)

Friction levers are out there. Check garage sales, or look at Rivendell's 'Silver Downtube
Shifters.' If these are as nice as the Suntour Sprint levers that they are supposedly recreations
of, those are fantastic non-index levers- smooth, very precise and easy to use.

Then again, I sold the bike that had those last spring and don't miss non-indexed shifting at all. I
tried friction bar ends and decided that the 'pleasure' of manual shifting was minimal at best. No
regrets going to indexed bar ends.

If you are getting a new bike, have the shop 'buy' your index shifters and install whatever you want
to bring them. Or go for downtube or bar ends with the friction option. Maybe it's just STI levers
that you don't like.

I'm big on friction shifting too, and for the same reasons you mention. However, I recently equipped
one of my bikes with Shimano's bar-end shifters. They index with 9 speed cassettes, and have a
friction mode. I have found that the indexing works so well and needs little or no fiddling once it
is set up properly. And setting it up properly isn't difficult at all. The systems have come such a
long way, that once it is set up, you won't have to do much with it to keep it working right.

But the friction mode is a really good thing, (and the Shimano's work really nice in friction
mode) -- the main advantage being that if for some reason you should be far from home and have a
problem, perhaps you have to swap wheels and the new ones have different cog spacing than your
original ones, you can still shift like a pro.

I just bought a new bike for my wife, and it came with the integrated brake/shift levers. It seems
to me that the initial setup is not nearly as easy as with more conventional levers (either downtube
levers or bar-end levers). I don't have enough experience with them to say how well they work or how
long they hold up. I'll probably get a lot of hate-mail for saying this, but they seem needlessly
complicated to me.

"Robert Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wanting to replace my falling-apart 15-year old no-name touring bike with something new, I visited
the bike shops around Ann Arbor. I was disappointed to see that bikes with indexed shift levers
are the only kind that are generally available. I want the old-fashioned continuous levers with
friction hold. I've had enough experience with various indexed shifters to distrust their
calibration stability. With continuous shift levers I never have to worry about that because I can
constantly compensate for cable stretch and hysteresis by moving the shift lever until the chain
sounds right. Am I hopelessly out of date? Or are there others who insist on simple continuous
shift levers?

-Robert Scott Ypsilanti, Michigan (Reply through newsgroups, not by direct e-mail, as
automatic reply

address is fake.)