carbon fork dropouts

Eric Shanabrook said:

Are there any fork carbon-dropout durability issues, it seems like metal
might be a better material...for the dropouts? Could Carbon fiber
crumble/crush under compression over time (compression from the skewer), but
the fork makers probably have it figured out ok.

Don't bet on it. Carbon fiber composite only has metal-like strength
in the direction the fibers are oriented. Perpendicular to the fibers,
it's just ordinary epoxy.

Chalo Colina

Eric Shanabrook said:

Are there any fork carbon-dropout durability issues, it seems like metal
might be a better material...for the dropouts? Could Carbon fiber
crumble/crush under compression over time (compression from the skewer), but
the fork makers probably have it figured out ok.

Yes, they can be crushed, either by the front wheel skewer or on a car
rack(which is a BIG no-no).
marketing run amok, the weight savings is teeny, tiny...

Eric Shanabrook said:

Are there any fork carbon-dropout durability issues, it seems like metal
might be a better material...for the dropouts? Could Carbon fiber
crumble/crush under compression over time (compression from the skewer), but
the fork makers probably have it figured out ok.

Yeah, they've figured out how to sell lots of replacement forks
(something that should otherwise last a lifetime) once the fragile fork
ends get ruined. Good for business!

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Eric Shanabrook said:

Are there any fork carbon-dropout durability issues, it seems like metal
might be a better material...for the dropouts? Could Carbon fiber
crumble/crush under compression over time (compression from the skewer), but
the fork makers probably have it figured out ok.

Yes, they can be crushed, either by the front wheel skewer or on a car
rack(which is a BIG no-no).
marketing run amok, the weight savings is teeny, tiny...

CF dropouts! This falls under a new category: super stoopid light.
Whatever happened to basic common sense?

Eric Shanabrook said:

Are there any fork carbon-dropout durability issues, it seems like metal
might be a better material...for the dropouts?

I think so. You can file the lawer lips off a metal fork w/o worry.

Eric Shanabrook said:

Are there any fork carbon-dropout durability issues, it seems like metal
might be a better material...for the dropouts? Could Carbon fiber
crumble/crush under compression over time (compression from the skewer), but
the fork makers probably have it figured out ok.

Easton SLX 90 fork has carbon dropouts and it has been around for about
2 years. Litespeed Real Design HP Pro fork has carbon dropouts, with a
covering of aluminum on both sides. Its been around for a few years.
Look HSC5 fork has been out for a year now. It would be nice if
someone who owns the Easton or Litespeed fork could comment.

I think Giant is using carbon dropouts many if not most of their road
bikes now. This is more significant since it indicates the potential
for a flood of OEM forks with carbon dropouts in the years to come.

The real reason the manufacturers are adopting this it to save money
rather than take advantage of the teensy weight reduction.

On a side note. It looks like Giant has dumped most of their aluminum
road frames for 06. It is also curious that the low spoke count wheels
are only on their cheaper models. I wonder if they got tired of taking
the hit on so many warranty returns.

amakyonin said:

I think Giant is using carbon dropouts many if not most of their road
bikes now. This is more significant since it indicates the potential
for a flood of OEM forks with carbon dropouts in the years to come.

The real reason the manufacturers are adopting this it to save money
rather than take advantage of the teensy weight reduction.

Precisely! Once the design and tooling are paid for, a one piece fork
is cheaper to make, durability be damned. As an added benefit, the
makers can charge very high prices for the first and second generation
one piece forks, so the tooling gets paid off pretty quickly.

Quoted message said:

On a side note. It looks like Giant has dumped most of their aluminum
road frames for 06. It is also curious that the low spoke count wheels
are only on their cheaper models.

What's this? Signs of intelligent life in the bike market?

Quoted message said:

I wonder if they got tired of taking
the hit on so many warranty returns.

Perhaps they have rediscovered the 36 spoke wheel? "Everything old is
new again"!

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Eric Shanabrook said:

Are there any fork carbon-dropout durability issues, it seems like
metal
might be a better material...for the dropouts? Could Carbon fiber
crumble/crush under compression over time (compression from the
skewer), but
the fork makers probably have it figured out ok.

Yes, they can be crushed, either by the front wheel skewer or on a car
rack(which is a BIG no-no).

Even aluminum and steel dropouts are bad news when combined with lawyer lips
and a fork-mount roof rack. How many forks have you seen wrecked because
somebody had a difficult time keeping the bike propped up while
simultaneously working with the adjustment of the QR?

And, of course, over 26 years you're going to get a few people bringing
bikes into the store, claiming their fork is defective because the dropout
is bent outward at a 45 degree angle, and it just happened riding along.
Somehow. It doesn't take too long to explain to them what happened; of
course, you have to do so in a non-incriminating fashion, somehow convincing
them that you believe it's possible they might not have noticed it
happening. The thing we have to do sometimes to maintain a customer's
dignity... :>😉

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Eric Shanabrook said:

Are there any fork carbon-dropout durability issues, it seems like
metal
might be a better material...for the dropouts? Could Carbon fiber
crumble/crush under compression over time (compression from the
skewer), but
the fork makers probably have it figured out ok.

Yes, they can be crushed, either by the front wheel skewer or on a car
rack(which is a BIG no-no).
marketing run amok, the weight savings is teeny, tiny...

CF dropouts! This falls under a new category: super stoopid light.
Whatever happened to basic common sense?

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

And, of course, over 26 years you're going to get a few people bringing
bikes into the store, claiming their fork is defective because the
dropout is bent outward at a 45 degree angle, and it just happened
riding along. Somehow. It doesn't take too long to explain to them what
happened; of course, you have to do so in a non-incriminating fashion,
somehow convincing them that you believe it's possible they might not
have noticed it happening. The thing we have to do sometimes to maintain
a customer's dignity... :>😉

At first glance, I would think these cases are few enough that companies
like Trek could afford to replace forks for these people, at least within
the initial warranty period, whether they "should hafta" or not.

Matt O.

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

And, of course, over 26 years you're going to get a few

people bringing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bikes into the store, claiming their fork is defective

because the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dropout is bent outward at a 45 degree angle, and it just

happened

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

riding along. Somehow. It doesn't take too long to explain to

them what

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

happened; of course, you have to do so in a non-incriminating

fashion,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

somehow convincing them that you believe it's possible they

might not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have noticed it happening. The thing we have to do sometimes

to maintain

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a customer's dignity... :>😉

At first glance, I would think these cases are few enough that

companies

Quoted message said:

like Trek could afford to replace forks for these people, at

least within

Quoted message said:

the initial warranty period, whether they "should hafta" or

not.

Being nice is nice, but it shifts the financial burden to the
poor dealer who is working on narrow margins and has to do the
installation work for free, depending on the terms of the
dealership agreement. We have already had the exhausting thread
about free work.

Personally, I do not expect anything more or less than what the
warranty gives me. I have been on the other side of a rep's
discretionary determination that I don't get a replacement, but
someone else does -- eventhough we both had similar
non-warranteed failures. Totally [censored] me off, and I had been a
very loyal customer for 20 years. I would rather the warranty be
administered the same for everyone. -- Jay Beattie.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And, of course, over 26 years you're going to get a few people bringing
bikes into the store, claiming their fork is defective because the
dropout is bent outward at a 45 degree angle, and it just happened
riding along. Somehow. It doesn't take too long to explain to them what
happened; of course, you have to do so in a non-incriminating fashion,
somehow convincing them that you believe it's possible they might not
have noticed it happening. The thing we have to do sometimes to maintain
a customer's dignity... :>😉

At first glance, I would think these cases are few enough that companies
like Trek could afford to replace forks for these people, at least within
the initial warranty period, whether they "should hafta" or not.

Matt O.

Matt: You may have misunderstood the nature of the incident described. The
fork dropouts get bent when the customer has the bike balanced precariously,
manages to secure just one side of the fork in the clamp without realizing
it, the bike then tips towards them and *[censored]* you've got a
possibly-destroyed dropout.

If this was a situation where the damage could even remotely be caused by a
product being defective, there might be times when you'd give someone the
benefit of the doubt, even though it's highly unlikely to have been the
product's fault. But it's not. And experience over the years has taught me
one sad thing- it is, indeed, possible to be too nice, too accomodating for
a customer. We had a few times way, way, WAY back in the day, when we
thought it best to eat certain things in the name of building customer
loyalty. And you know what happened? People then believed that ANYTHING that
happened to their bike was the bike's fault, because, after all, we took
care of that bent rim for them.

There's nothing wrong with acting reasonably, and expecting others to do so
as well. We have exceptionally-few issues, because we go to the trouble of
not just telling somebody "That's what happens when you do something stupid"
but rather why it's not designed to handle that, why that's not in the
category of normal use, and perhaps a lesson in physics about how much
impact there actually was.

In nearly all cases, the customers are impressed that someone actually takes
the time to figure out what really happened and explain it to them.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

And, of course, over 26 years you're going to get a few people bringing
bikes into the store, claiming their fork is defective because the
dropout is bent outward at a 45 degree angle, and it just happened
riding along. Somehow. It doesn't take too long to explain to them what
happened; of course, you have to do so in a non-incriminating fashion,
somehow convincing them that you believe it's possible they might not
have noticed it happening. The thing we have to do sometimes to maintain
a customer's dignity... :>😉

At first glance, I would think these cases are few enough that companies
like Trek could afford to replace forks for these people, at least within
the initial warranty period, whether they "should hafta" or not.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

It would be nice if
someone who owns the Easton or Litespeed fork could comment.

Yeah, so then we can hear the RBT crew can tell them they're idiots
who fall for marketing-speak...

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Have been riding a Look HSC5 since April 2005 about 4000 miles, it's been
perfect and I am still here in one piece to say this.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Eric Shanabrook said:

Are there any fork carbon-dropout durability issues, it seems like metal
might be a better material...for the dropouts? Could Carbon fiber
crumble/crush under compression over time (compression from the skewer),
but
the fork makers probably have it figured out ok.

Easton SLX 90 fork has carbon dropouts and it has been around for about
2 years. Litespeed Real Design HP Pro fork has carbon dropouts, with a
covering of aluminum on both sides. Its been around for a few years.
Look HSC5 fork has been out for a year now. It would be nice if
someone who owns the Easton or Litespeed fork could comment.

"Eric Shanabrook" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:BQ0vf.8084$gq4.6918@trndny04:

Quoted message said:

Are there any fork carbon-dropout durability issues, it seems like
metal might be a better material...for the dropouts? Could Carbon
fiber crumble/crush under compression over time (compression from the
skewer), but the fork makers probably have it figured out ok.

The question is WHY? What advantages would carbon dropouts have over metal?
The weight saved is too negligible to make weight-saving a credible
argument. This is nothing like comparing a carbon fork to a metal fork. If
they ever do come up with this one...

Thank you all for your input, I think metal dropouts make more sense to me,
with my understanding of materials.....

In article <[email hidden]>, Mike

Jacoubowsky said:

And, of course, over 26 years you're going to get a few people bringing
bikes into the store, claiming their fork is defective because the dropout
is bent outward at a 45 degree angle, and it just happened riding along.
Somehow. It doesn't take too long to explain to them what happened; of
course, you have to do so in a non-incriminating fashion, somehow convincing
them that you believe it's possible they might not have noticed it
happening. The thing we have to do sometimes to maintain a customer's
dignity... :>😉

I envy your acumen; you're the discriminating businessman who knows a
little tact goes a long way. The customer comes in after trashing his
fork and leaves satisfied, with esteem fortified and funds depleted!

I wonder that diplomacy or (at the risk of insulting) politics is not
your true calling.

Luke

Okay, now I am worried. How tightly do I crank up my QR? I don't want
the axle to move with the torque but I also don't want to crush my drop
out.
Ted.

The forks don't see much torque on a road bike with rim brakes under normal
conditions. I guess if you can put lateral loads on the front wheel then may
need to be tighter. You don't need to tighten them as much as the rear
wheel, especially horizontal dropouts. I would go tight enough so that if
you bang on the top of the wheels with your fist the wheel doesn't budge.

cel

"Ted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, now I am worried. How tightly do I crank up my QR? I don't want
the axle to move with the torque but I also don't want to crush my drop
out.
Ted.