Switching to less weights / more reps

"Gemini Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After google-ing this group to get some help on this, I really kind of
hate to bring it up...

I'm making a switch to lower weights with significantly more reps. For
the last several years I've pushed as much as my body would allow
about 3x a week. I've gotten this shoulder injury that just will not
go away & I'm pretty certain I know the moment it 'snapped' or ripped
during a bench press workout about a year ago. I've also foolishly
done some damage to my elbows and shoulders from excessive curls
(since corrected). It seems even once I learned how to properly lift,
my joints simply ache more than I think they should, constantly. I
have more of an interest in Martial Arts than Bodybuilding anyway and
feel that perhaps the more reps and low weights would be more suited
for that also. The main thing: the soreness in my shoulders naturally
lessens when I do the lesser weight. Anyone here tried this approach?
I want to continue with some kind of weight training but have no
interest in building up a lot of mass. What some would call 'tone',
endurance, and less pressure on the joints is what I'm shooting for.
I'm also curious as to what to expect in terms of my appearance. Will
I now dwindle down to looking essentially healthy, but not what anyone
would call muscular? And in terms of strength loss, will I now strain
to lift my 5yr old son up onto my shoulders?
~GJ~

Good for MA can be pure strength - short sets, long rests, heavy
weights, low total volume, something along the lines of Pavel's PTP -
see http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm for more. You won't get big on low
volume of any kind, and if you're doing low volume, you might as well
get the most out of it and lift heavy. I don't see that lower weights
and more reps will help you as a MA unless you're trying to add some
size. Strength/endurance and pure endurance are other subjects
entirely.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Steve Freides said:

Good for MA can be pure strength - short sets, long rests, heavy
weights, low total volume, something along the lines of Pavel's PTP -
see http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm for more.

That link's eventual target
(http://www.myaffiliateprogram.com/u/dragondr/t.asp?id=1022&p=b10)
is broken.

Quoted message said:

You won't get big on low
volume of any kind, and if you're doing low volume, you might as well
get the most out of it and lift heavy. I don't see that lower weights
and more reps will help you as a MA unless you're trying to add some
size. Strength/endurance and pure endurance are other subjects
entirely.

Now this is where I get confused. Am I wrong in thinking that a
better endurance would come from the less weight/more reps routine?
For me, it certainly doesn't come from heavy weights / fewer reps.
~GJ~

"Gemini Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

Good for MA can be pure strength - short sets, long rests, heavy
weights, low total volume, something along the lines of Pavel's PTP -
see http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm for more.

That link's eventual target
(http://www.myaffiliateprogram.com/u/dragondr/t.asp?id=1022&p=b10)
is broken.

I just did this all three ways, using the first link of mine you quoted
and clicking "go there now", using the same link and waiting for it to
time out, and using the "myaffiliate" link you posted - all worked fine
for me. The book I'm linking too is entitled "Power To The People!" and
it's widely available.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You won't get big on low
volume of any kind, and if you're doing low volume, you might as well
get the most out of it and lift heavy. I don't see that lower weights
and more reps will help you as a MA unless you're trying to add some
size. Strength/endurance and pure endurance are other subjects
entirely.

Now this is where I get confused. Am I wrong in thinking that a
better endurance would come from the less weight/more reps routine?
For me, it certainly doesn't come from heavy weights / fewer reps.

No, you're right that better endurance of some sort will come from less
weight and more reps. The question shouldn't be just that, though, it
should be, "What will benefit my MA practice most?" and that, in turn,
depends on several things.

First, some people in MA lack limit strength and, for a long time, if
your limit strength goes up, you'll see improvements in
strength/endurance and endurance as well. In short, you might give
limit strength training a try to see if it improves your performance (or
even just your resistance to injury).

The question is whether the type of endurance you get doing, e.g., 15-25
rep sets, if that's what you mean by "more reps," is of any use in your
martial art. My guess is no. Strength/endurance, of the type, e.g.,
where you swing a 50-70 kettlebell overhead for several minutes at a
time, might be useful. MA sparring usually involves going for a few
minutes per round, and strength/endurance training can be useful.
Circuit training, CrossFit - these kinds of things can be useful.

Likewise pure endurance training like running can help if that's your
weakness.

I think the bottom line is that you have to try and identify your
weaknesses and then try to improve them. If it's difficult to know what
your weaknesses are, there's nothing wrong with experimenting with
different styles of training to see which brings you better results.

All that said, I don't think there's much use for you for "more reps" if
you're using that to mean 12 or more reps per set.

Internet suggestions are worth what you pay for them, so take that into
account as well. I'm just trying to give you some things to think
about.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Internet suggestions are worth what you pay for them, so take that into
account as well. I'm just trying to give you some things to think about.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Also, to the OP, it sounds like your original routine was a lot of benching
and curling. If you weren't balancing it with some posterior shoulder and
rotator exercises - you probably developed a muscular imbalance in your
shoulder that led to your present shoulder issues. IOW, it could be that
lifting heavy isn't the culprit here, rather, a poor selection of exercises.

Ranieri' nah said:

Also, to the OP, it sounds like your original routine was a lot of benching
and curling. If you weren't balancing it with some posterior shoulder and
rotator exercises - you probably developed a muscular imbalance in your
shoulder that led to your present shoulder issues.

I think he was chokin' his chicken too much...

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Russ said:

Ranieri' nah said:

Also, to the OP, it sounds like your original routine was a lot of benching
and curling. If you weren't balancing it with some posterior shoulder and
rotator exercises - you probably developed a muscular imbalance in your
shoulder that led to your present shoulder issues.

Certainly a possibility.

Quoted message said:

I think he was chokin' his chicken too much...

Also... a possibility.

Quoted message said:

/ ~ .\
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/ | | | `` |/~~\
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~GJ~

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:07:57 -0500, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"Gemini Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

Good for MA can be pure strength - short sets, long rests, heavy
weights, low total volume, something along the lines of Pavel's PTP -
see http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm for more.

That link's eventual target
(http://www.myaffiliateprogram.com/u/dragondr/t.asp?id=1022&p=b10)
is broken.

I just did this all three ways, using the first link of mine you quoted
and clicking "go there now", using the same link and waiting for it to
time out, and using the "myaffiliate" link you posted - all worked fine
for me. The book I'm linking too is entitled "Power To The People!" and
it's widely available.

And it's a waste of money.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You won't get big on low
volume of any kind, and if you're doing low volume, you might as well
get the most out of it and lift heavy. I don't see that lower weights
and more reps will help you as a MA unless you're trying to add some
size. Strength/endurance and pure endurance are other subjects
entirely.

Now this is where I get confused. Am I wrong in thinking that a
better endurance would come from the less weight/more reps routine?
For me, it certainly doesn't come from heavy weights / fewer reps.

No, you're right that better endurance of some sort will come from less
weight and more reps. The question shouldn't be just that, though, it
should be, "What will benefit my MA practice most?" and that, in turn,
depends on several things.

First, some people in MA lack limit strength and, for a long time, if
your limit strength goes up, you'll see improvements in
strength/endurance and endurance as well. In short, you might give
limit strength training a try to see if it improves your performance (or
even just your resistance to injury).

I don't believe there is a correlation with limit strength and
endurance. In fact, I think it is inversely proportional for the most
part if there is a correlation. That's certainly been the case with
me. If I don't walk or run much for even a couple of weeks and then
proceed to do so, my legs tire and fill with lactic acid VERY quickly.

Quoted message said:

The question is whether the type of endurance you get doing, e.g., 15-25
rep sets, if that's what you mean by "more reps," is of any use in your
martial art. My guess is no. Strength/endurance, of the type, e.g.,
where you swing a 50-70 kettlebell overhead for several minutes at a
time, might be useful. MA sparring usually involves going for a few
minutes per round, and strength/endurance training can be useful.
Circuit training, CrossFit - these kinds of things can be useful.

Likewise pure endurance training like running can help if that's your
weakness.

I think the bottom line is that you have to try and identify your
weaknesses and then try to improve them. If it's difficult to know what
your weaknesses are, there's nothing wrong with experimenting with
different styles of training to see which brings you better results.

All that said, I don't think there's much use for you for "more reps" if
you're using that to mean 12 or more reps per set.

Internet suggestions are worth what you pay for them, so take that into
account as well. I'm just trying to give you some things to think
about.

If I were the OP, I'd do more speed training with weights, run more
and spar more.

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:07:57 -0500, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Internet suggestions are worth what you pay for them, so take that into
account as well. I'm just trying to give you some things to think
about.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Indeed you have, many thanks for your time. Lurking here as I do,
I've noticed you're rather keen on kettlebells, would a dumbbell give
roughly the same workout? Ever dropped one on your head?
~GJ~

Gemini Jackson said:

Lurking here as I do,
I've noticed you're rather keen on kettlebells, would a dumbbell give
roughly the same workout? Ever dropped one on your head?

I can answer that. Steve being a "tiny ballerina" he can usually move
out of the way fast enough to avoid getting hit. However, one night,
after a few bottles of Mad Dog, he failed to dodge the errant
kettleball, and was beaned in the head. He's never been quite the same
since, but he still gives good head.

/ ~ .\
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__| `` | `.` |/~~\
/ | | | `` |/~~\
| | | | | `` | /
\ ` . . | |
\ . . ` /
\ . . /
\ . /
| . |
| |
| |

"Gemini Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:07:57 -0500, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Internet suggestions are worth what you pay for them, so take that
into
account as well. I'm just trying to give you some things to think
about.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Indeed you have, many thanks for your time. Lurking here as I do,
I've noticed you're rather keen on kettlebells, would a dumbbell give
roughly the same workout?

For some things, you can get close with a dumbbell, but for many of the
moves kettlebells are known for, e.g., swings and snatches, it's just
not the same. The fact that the weight is off-center makes it another
beast to handle. The general rule of thumb is that if you're trying to
duplicate a kb move with a db, add 10-20 lbs. to the db's weight., e.g.,
if you can work with a 45 lb. dumbbell, you'll be good with a 35 lb.
kettlebell.

Quoted message said:

Ever dropped one on your head?

Nope, never heard of anyone who has, either. I've whacked a toe once or
twice, though - not the most pleasant experience...

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

John Hanson said:

I don't believe there is a correlation with limit strength and
endurance. In fact, I think it is inversely proportional for the most
part if there is a correlation.

Cardiovascular endurance, yes, not local muscle endurance.
They are two different and fairly unrelated things.
Someone who can bench 1x200kg can almost certainly do
more reps with 50kg than someone who benches 1x100kg.

"Helgi Briem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

I don't believe there is a correlation with limit strength and
endurance. In fact, I think it is inversely proportional for the most
part if there is a correlation.

Cardiovascular endurance, yes, not local muscle endurance.
They are two different and fairly unrelated things.
Someone who can bench 1x200kg can almost certainly do
more reps with 50kg than someone who benches 1x100kg.

Precisely. Many people who haven't trained limit strength before find
their endurance and endurance/strength goes up without any specific
training. Obviously it won't work this way forever but it's nice while
it does. 🙂

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 20:31:37 +0000, Helgi Briem
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

I don't believe there is a correlation with limit strength and
endurance. In fact, I think it is inversely proportional for the most
part if there is a correlation.

Cardiovascular endurance, yes, not local muscle endurance.
They are two different and fairly unrelated things.
Someone who can bench 1x200kg can almost certainly do
more reps with 50kg than someone who benches 1x100kg.

You snipped this, " If I don't walk or run much for even a couple of
weeks and then proceed to do so, my legs tire and fill with lactic
acid VERY quickly."

By VERY, I mean within two or three minutes at most which has
absolutely NOTHING to do with cardiovascular endurance. At the same
time, my squat will be doing hella good. All this relates to what the
OP was asking about and Steve's comments. Limit strength will help
him very little in MA.

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 20:31:37 +0000, Helgi Briem
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

I don't believe there is a correlation with limit strength and
endurance. In fact, I think it is inversely proportional for the
most
part if there is a correlation.

Cardiovascular endurance, yes, not local muscle endurance.
They are two different and fairly unrelated things.
Someone who can bench 1x200kg can almost certainly do
more reps with 50kg than someone who benches 1x100kg.

You snipped this, " If I don't walk or run much for even a couple of
weeks and then proceed to do so, my legs tire and fill with lactic
acid VERY quickly."

By VERY, I mean within two or three minutes at most which has
absolutely NOTHING to do with cardiovascular endurance. At the same
time, my squat will be doing hella good. All this relates to what the
OP was asking about and Steve's comments. Limit strength will help
him very little in MA.

That's too broad a generalization, John. What will help is whatever is
needed, and what's needed is different for each person. In the couple
of years I studied Tae Kwon Do, I was able to outspar almost everyone
who outranked me simply because I was stronger and could deliver a few
big hits. All the millions of pushups and situps we used to do didn't,
IMHO, help much at all, but moving iron did. And this was because I was
a runner and had plenty of endurance already - the weight lifting was
what I needed.

Let's not forget to point out that there aren't a lot of 100kg+
endurance athletes - limit strength training while remaining small is
different than limit strength training with a focus on getting both
bigger and stronger. IOW, the kind of limit strength training I'm
suggesting is not the kind you practice, it's the kind I practice.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

That's too broad a generalization, John. What will help is whatever is
needed, and what's needed is different for each person. In the couple of
years I studied Tae Kwon Do, I was able to outspar almost everyone who
outranked me simply because I was stronger and could deliver a few big
hits.

That reminds me...

Kramer, you're fighting children?!
We're all at the same skill level, Jerry.
He's nine years old! You don't need karate, you can just wring his neck!

Ranieri' nah said:

That reminds me...

Kramer, you're fighting children?!
We're all at the same skill level, Jerry.
He's nine years old! You don't need karate, you can just wring his neck!

Now you're getting the picture...

John Hanson said:

Limit strength will help him very little in MA.

Speaking as someone who did MA for 15 years,
you are so very, very wrong. I wish I had known
then what I know now about strength training.
I would have been twice as good as I was.

Helgi Briem said:

John Hanson said:

Limit strength will help him very little in MA.

Speaking as someone who did MA for 15 years,
you are so very, very wrong. I wish I had known
then what I know now about strength training.
I would have been twice as good as I was.

It appears to me that the time which would be required to increase the
1RM (which is basically what Limit Strength boils down to) in all
major muscle groups, might well be better spent in actual MA training
and competition.

Of course a thorough well-programmed and regular strength orientated
weight training schedule, together with a similar programme of CV type
HIIT, is a must but it doesn't leave much time for maxing out -
neither, I suggest, is it wise.

Gemini Jackson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

After google-ing this group to get some help on this, I really kind of
hate to bring it up...

I'm making a switch to lower weights with significantly more reps. For
the last several years I've pushed as much as my body would allow
about 3x a week. I've gotten this shoulder injury that just will not
go away & I'm pretty certain I know the moment it 'snapped' or ripped
during a bench press workout about a year ago. I've also foolishly
done some damage to my elbows and shoulders from excessive curls
(since corrected). It seems even once I learned how to properly lift,
my joints simply ache more than I think they should, constantly. I
have more of an interest in Martial Arts than Bodybuilding anyway and
feel that perhaps the more reps and low weights would be more suited
for that also. The main thing: the soreness in my shoulders naturally
lessens when I do the lesser weight. Anyone here tried this approach?
I want to continue with some kind of weight training but have no
interest in building up a lot of mass. What some would call 'tone',
endurance, and less pressure on the joints is what I'm shooting for.
I'm also curious as to what to expect in terms of my appearance. Will
I now dwindle down to looking essentially healthy, but not what anyone
would call muscular? And in terms of strength loss, will I now strain
to lift my 5yr old son up onto my shoulders?
~GJ~

Tudor Bompa's "Serious Strength Training" book recommends doing anatomical
adaptation phases periodically. They're 8-15 rep sets.