Back again

Eric said:

Now before you all jump on me with the Atkins mantra "you can't do
low-fat and low-carb at the same time" let me say I do not intend to
eat a LOW-fat diet. There will always be a place for meat and cheese at
my table. My plan is more like cut out all sugar and processed starch,
get most of my carbs from veggies, have eggs, cheese and cream in
moderation, drink plenty of water and eat all the meat I want....but
the leanest, lowest-calorie meat I can get.

For the same total calories less protein and more fat means more
loss. For the same total calories more protein and less fat means
less loss. It's the glucagon that controls fat withdrawal from
storage and glucagon is indirectly driven by dietary fat. So expect
your loss rates to be a bit less than before. But think about it.
The biggest open secret out there is the ones who don't quit are
the sucessfull ones. If it means you don't quit then loss rates
don't matter.

Calorie for calorie both fat and protein are more satiating than carbs.
Calorie for calorie fat is more satiating than protein. Expect to get
somewhat less appetite suppression. Ketosis should keep it under
control but you'll need to put a bit more effort into portion control.

Please do call it a plan of your own creation, not Atkins, though.
Atkins is something specific, a process that might lead you to what
you describe but likely will not.

Eric wrote:
|| Hi to all and Happy New Year.
<snip>
I do not intend to
|| eat a LOW-fat diet. There will always be a place for meat and cheese
|| at my table. My plan is more like cut out all sugar and processed
|| starch, get most of my carbs from veggies, have eggs, cheese and
|| cream in moderation, drink plenty of water and eat all the meat I
|| want....but the leanest, lowest-calorie meat I can get.
||
|| This way maybe I won't be nauseated by eggs and frying meat in a
|| month or two. I'll let you know how it goes.
||
|| Regards,
|| Eric M
|| 252/252/210
|| Peak weight 269; height 6'1.75"

Sounds like a great plan, if that's what works for you.

By simply cutting out sugar and starches you'll automatically increase the
ratio of fats and proteins to carbs, and that's what's important.

Good luck this go-around.

--
Peter
Website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Hi to all and Happy New Year.

I'm back again on low-carb for about the fifth or sixth time. Just
started today so as not to jump on the New Year bandwagon; two day's
grace and all.

I've tried a zillion times to lose weight every way imaginable;
low-carb has been the most effective method for me since I first tried
it in early 2002.

So why do I keep washing-out of LC? It's all about the fat. Each
previous time on this diet---or WOE if you prefer---I reached the point
where I could not stand the smell of cooking meat, especially fried,
and I coul not look at an egg, which normally I like a lot.

The banishment of sugar and starch works for me, as does the
restriction on carb intake. I love green vegetables, chicken, most
fish, cheese, etc....but my system can tolerate just so much fat,
especially animal fat. I'm one of those folks who actually likes the
leanest possible cuts of meat, 93% lean burgers, skinless chicken
breast with the fat trimmed, etc. The fatty foods I do like----heavy
cream, cheese, NSA peanut butter---are _loaded_ with calories, too.

Now before you all jump on me with the Atkins mantra "you can't do
low-fat and low-carb at the same time" let me say I do not intend to
eat a LOW-fat diet. There will always be a place for meat and cheese at
my table. My plan is more like cut out all sugar and processed starch,
get most of my carbs from veggies, have eggs, cheese and cream in
moderation, drink plenty of water and eat all the meat I want....but
the leanest, lowest-calorie meat I can get.

This way maybe I won't be nauseated by eggs and frying meat in a month
or two. I'll let you know how it goes.

Hi Eric, welcome back to the group!

It sounds like you know what to do. You don't HAVE to eat fatty meats
on low-carb. If you are getting your fats from cheeses and oils, I
don't see a problem with that. I don't eat a lot of red meat, either.
I just don't care for it all that much and eat mostly chicken, seafood
and fish for protein, although with poultry I prefer the dark meat (and
skin -- that's another thing I really like about going low-carb -- I
have free reign to eat chicken skin again :-) and can't stand the white
meat unless it's slathered in mayo like I used to do as a kid with
sandwiches -- it's just too dry for my tastes. I think that's a part of
why I don't eat much red meat, either -- to me, it's a chore to chew it.
One exception that I've been making for that over the last year is beef
tongue -- it is SOOO flavorful and INCREDIBLY tender. I have to go to a
special store to get it, though (they also carry sheep heads, pigs feet,
etc.)

I've been posting here since mid-2003, so I probably missed your
previous posts, but I've stayed low carb the entire time. Part of that
is that I haven't quite reached my goal weight yet, but a big part of it
is that I've made a commitment to STAYING low carb. That's because I
FEEL so much better while eating that way, and it's a powerful incentive
for me in that way. It sounds like you need to make a commitment to a
WOE, low-carb or otherwise, and stick to it even after you lose the
weight.

--
Saffire
205/132/125
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

*** This post originated in alt.support.diet.low-carb -- its appearance
in any other forum is deceptive and unauthorized. ***

Fat doesn't have to come with meat. A little heavy cream goes a long way
and there are lots of things you can do with it, ranch dressing, mayo type
dressings, butter on your veggies, cheese, olives, avocadoes.... Here's a
treat I've been making lately. Put a handful (1/4 to 1/3 cup) of frozen
berries in a dish. I use the Triple Berry Blend from Costco. Pour about an
equal amount of heavy cream on and add a bit of Splenda, stir a bit to
soften the berries, then crush them with the back of the spoon and stir some
more, add more cream if needed to make a lovely berry ice cream. Takes less
than five minutes and is delicious.

In news:[email hidden],
Eric <[email hidden]> stated
| Hi to all and Happy New Year.
|
| I'm back again on low-carb for about the fifth or sixth time. Just
| started today so as not to jump on the New Year bandwagon; two day's
| grace and all.
|
| I've tried a zillion times to lose weight every way imaginable;
| low-carb has been the most effective method for me since I first tried
| it in early 2002.
|
| So why do I keep washing-out of LC? It's all about the fat. Each
| previous time on this diet---or WOE if you prefer---I reached the
| point where I could not stand the smell of cooking meat, especially
| fried, and I coul not look at an egg, which normally I like a lot.
|
| The banishment of sugar and starch works for me, as does the
| restriction on carb intake. I love green vegetables, chicken, most
| fish, cheese, etc....but my system can tolerate just so much fat,
| especially animal fat. I'm one of those folks who actually likes the
| leanest possible cuts of meat, 93% lean burgers, skinless chicken
| breast with the fat trimmed, etc. The fatty foods I do like----heavy
| cream, cheese, NSA peanut butter---are _loaded_ with calories, too.
|
| Now before you all jump on me with the Atkins mantra "you can't do
| low-fat and low-carb at the same time" let me say I do not intend to
| eat a LOW-fat diet. There will always be a place for meat and cheese
| at my table. My plan is more like cut out all sugar and processed
| starch, get most of my carbs from veggies, have eggs, cheese and
| cream in moderation, drink plenty of water and eat all the meat I
| want....but the leanest, lowest-calorie meat I can get.
|
| This way maybe I won't be nauseated by eggs and frying meat in a month
| or two. I'll let you know how it goes.
|
| Regards,
| Eric M
| 252/252/210
| Peak weight 269; height 6'1.75"

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi to all and Happy New Year.

I'm back again on low-carb for about the fifth or sixth time. Just
started today so as not to jump on the New Year bandwagon; two day's
grace and all.

I've tried a zillion times to lose weight every way imaginable;
low-carb has been the most effective method for me since I first tried
it in early 2002.

So why do I keep washing-out of LC? It's all about the fat. Each
previous time on this diet---or WOE if you prefer---I reached the point
where I could not stand the smell of cooking meat, especially fried,
and I coul not look at an egg, which normally I like a lot.

The banishment of sugar and starch works for me, as does the
restriction on carb intake. I love green vegetables, chicken, most
fish, cheese, etc....but my system can tolerate just so much fat,
especially animal fat. I'm one of those folks who actually likes the
leanest possible cuts of meat, 93% lean burgers, skinless chicken
breast with the fat trimmed, etc. The fatty foods I do like----heavy
cream, cheese, NSA peanut butter---are _loaded_ with calories, too.

Now before you all jump on me with the Atkins mantra "you can't do
low-fat and low-carb at the same time" let me say I do not intend to
eat a LOW-fat diet. There will always be a place for meat and cheese at
my table. My plan is more like cut out all sugar and processed starch,
get most of my carbs from veggies, have eggs, cheese and cream in
moderation, drink plenty of water and eat all the meat I want....but
the leanest, lowest-calorie meat I can get.

This way maybe I won't be nauseated by eggs and frying meat in a month
or two. I'll let you know how it goes.

Regards,
Eric M
252/252/210
Peak weight 269; height 6'1.75"

Have you looked at South Beach? SB is not a true low-carb diet. They call
it "good carbs not no carbs," but SB also emphasizes low-fat cheese and lean
meats. It calls for certain kinds of fats, such as olive oil and nuts
(limited quantity). If you try SB, it's important to stick very closely to
Phase 1 (first two weeks) first.

MaryL

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi to all and Happy New Year.

I'm back again on low-carb for about the fifth or sixth time. Just
started today so as not to jump on the New Year bandwagon; two day's
grace and all.

I've tried a zillion times to lose weight every way imaginable;
low-carb has been the most effective method for me since I first tried
it in early 2002.

So why do I keep washing-out of LC? It's all about the fat. Each
previous time on this diet---or WOE if you prefer---I reached the point
where I could not stand the smell of cooking meat, especially fried,
and I coul not look at an egg, which normally I like a lot.

The banishment of sugar and starch works for me, as does the
restriction on carb intake. I love green vegetables, chicken, most
fish, cheese, etc....but my system can tolerate just so much fat,
especially animal fat. I'm one of those folks who actually likes the
leanest possible cuts of meat, 93% lean burgers, skinless chicken
breast with the fat trimmed, etc. The fatty foods I do like----heavy
cream, cheese, NSA peanut butter---are _loaded_ with calories, too.

Now before you all jump on me with the Atkins mantra "you can't do
low-fat and low-carb at the same time" let me say I do not intend to
eat a LOW-fat diet. There will always be a place for meat and cheese at
my table. My plan is more like cut out all sugar and processed starch,
get most of my carbs from veggies, have eggs, cheese and cream in
moderation, drink plenty of water and eat all the meat I want....but
the leanest, lowest-calorie meat I can get.

Add some nuts and fish, such as tuna and salmon. Watch the total amounts of
food you eat and make sure you're a bit hungry before eating.

Tp me, the Atkins diet ended up as follows.

A) Cut out all of those starchy good tasting things you love... cookies,
french fries, baked potatos, cake, pie, heavenly bread, pasta, pizza,...

B) Feel good about eating meat.

C) Learn to eat fix and eat some wonderful colorful low carb veggies.

D) Feel great about using butter.

E) Feel great about using sour cream, French onion dip, and other dairy.

F) Feel great about eating cheese guilt free again.

G) Avocados are pretty nice, and previously I always avoided them.

H) Learn to use a bicycle for recreation, shopping and commuting to work.

I) Continue making New Years Resolutins to MAYBE take up jogging this year.

AND.....

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

Eric said:

Hi to all and Happy New Year.

I'm back again on low-carb for about the fifth or sixth time. Just
started today so as not to jump on the New Year bandwagon; two day's
grace and all.

I've tried a zillion times to lose weight every way imaginable;
low-carb has been the most effective method for me since I first tried
it in early 2002.

So why do I keep washing-out of LC? It's all about the fat. Each
previous time on this diet---or WOE if you prefer---I reached the point
where I could not stand the smell of cooking meat, especially fried,
and I coul not look at an egg, which normally I like a lot.

The banishment of sugar and starch works for me, as does the
restriction on carb intake. I love green vegetables, chicken, most
fish, cheese, etc....but my system can tolerate just so much fat,
especially animal fat. I'm one of those folks who actually likes the
leanest possible cuts of meat, 93% lean burgers, skinless chicken
breast with the fat trimmed, etc. The fatty foods I do like----heavy
cream, cheese, NSA peanut butter---are _loaded_ with calories, too.

Now before you all jump on me with the Atkins mantra "you can't do
low-fat and low-carb at the same time" let me say I do not intend to
eat a LOW-fat diet. There will always be a place for meat and cheese at
my table. My plan is more like cut out all sugar and processed starch,
get most of my carbs from veggies, have eggs, cheese and cream in
moderation, drink plenty of water and eat all the meat I want....but
the leanest, lowest-calorie meat I can get.

This way maybe I won't be nauseated by eggs and frying meat in a month
or two. I'll let you know how it goes.

Regards,
Eric M
252/252/210
Peak weight 269; height 6'1.75"

--
1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

jbuch said:

A) Cut out all of those starchy good tasting things you love... cookies,
french fries, baked potatos, cake, pie, heavenly bread, pasta, pizza,...

If it tastes good, it isn't good for you :-)

Marsha/Ohio

You may want to try something more along the
lines of the Zone. You can get some of your
fat supplementally via fish oil and olive oil
while simultaneously improving your omega 3 to
omega 6 fatty acid ratio. With only 42 pounds
to lose, a Zone type of diet may be a good fit
for you not only now (while losing weight) but
for the rest of your life (life long maintenance).
See if you can fine either of the two latest
Zone books (Omega-Rx Zone, Anti-Inflammation Zone)
at your local library. The first one, while it
doesn't get into fatty acids like the latest ones,
is also a good one to read to get up to speed on
the basics of what is basically iso-caloric diets.
In a word, if you read the first one and the last
(latest) one, you'll have a very good idea of
how it works.
--

Eric said:

Hi to all and Happy New Year.

I'm back again on low-carb for about the fifth or sixth time. Just
started today so as not to jump on the New Year bandwagon; two day's
grace and all.

I've tried a zillion times to lose weight every way imaginable;
low-carb has been the most effective method for me since I first tried
it in early 2002.

So why do I keep washing-out of LC? It's all about the fat. Each
previous time on this diet---or WOE if you prefer---I reached the point
where I could not stand the smell of cooking meat, especially fried,
and I coul not look at an egg, which normally I like a lot.

The banishment of sugar and starch works for me, as does the
restriction on carb intake. I love green vegetables, chicken, most
fish, cheese, etc....but my system can tolerate just so much fat,
especially animal fat. I'm one of those folks who actually likes the
leanest possible cuts of meat, 93% lean burgers, skinless chicken
breast with the fat trimmed, etc. The fatty foods I do like----heavy
cream, cheese, NSA peanut butter---are _loaded_ with calories, too.

Now before you all jump on me with the Atkins mantra "you can't do
low-fat and low-carb at the same time" let me say I do not intend to
eat a LOW-fat diet. There will always be a place for meat and cheese at
my table. My plan is more like cut out all sugar and processed starch,
get most of my carbs from veggies, have eggs, cheese and cream in
moderation, drink plenty of water and eat all the meat I want....but
the leanest, lowest-calorie meat I can get.

This way maybe I won't be nauseated by eggs and frying meat in a month
or two. I'll let you know how it goes.

Regards,
Eric M
252/252/210
Peak weight 269; height 6'1.75"

Doug Freyburger said:

Eric said:

Now before you all jump on me with the Atkins mantra "you can't do
low-fat and low-carb at the same time" let me say I do not intend to
eat a LOW-fat diet. There will always be a place for meat and cheese at
my table. My plan is more like cut out all sugar and processed starch,
get most of my carbs from veggies, have eggs, cheese and cream in
moderation, drink plenty of water and eat all the meat I want....but
the leanest, lowest-calorie meat I can get.

For the same total calories less protein and more fat means more
loss. For the same total calories more protein and less fat means
less loss. It's the glucagon that controls fat withdrawal from
storage and glucagon is indirectly driven by dietary fat. So expect
your loss rates to be a bit less than before. But think about it.
The biggest open secret out there is the ones who don't quit are
the sucessfull ones. If it means you don't quit then loss rates
don't matter.

Calorie for calorie both fat and protein are more satiating than carbs.
Calorie for calorie fat is more satiating than protein. Expect to get
somewhat less appetite suppression. Ketosis should keep it under
control but you'll need to put a bit more effort into portion control.

Please do call it a plan of your own creation, not Atkins, though.
Atkins is something specific, a process that might lead you to what
you describe but likely will not.

OK, it's not Atkins, though I expect to be close to Induction-level
carbs for the first week or 10 days as I 'shock' my system. It was
never clear to me, at least after Induction was over, exactly what it
meant to be "on Atkins OWL" as opposed to "on Protein Power" or
whatever.

South Beach, of course, is a different story. That's not really
low-carb. I tried it briefly last fall. It's even harder to tell if you
are "on" SBD and doing it properly.

To me it's not so much that fat satiates me or curbs my appetite as it
is that carbs, especially processed stuff, _really_ spike my appetite.
Of course that's a different kind of "desire for food" that's related
to but not the same thing as true hunger.

Whether fat or protein is more filling is not clear to me; I just know
that bread, cereal, pretzels, pasta, pizza potatoes, etc. turns me into
an insatiable non-stop eating machine. Anything that starts with "p" is
bad, it seems....

Eric M

Marengo said:

Eric wrote:
|| Hi to all and Happy New Year.
<snip>
I do not intend to
|| eat a LOW-fat diet. There will always be a place for meat and cheese
|| at my table. My plan is more like cut out all sugar and processed
|| starch, get most of my carbs from veggies, have eggs, cheese and
|| cream in moderation, drink plenty of water and eat all the meat I
|| want....but the leanest, lowest-calorie meat I can get.
||
|| This way maybe I won't be nauseated by eggs and frying meat in a
|| month or two. I'll let you know how it goes.
||
|| Regards,
|| Eric M
|| 252/252/210
|| Peak weight 269; height 6'1.75"

Sounds like a great plan, if that's what works for you.

By simply cutting out sugar and starches you'll automatically increase the
ratio of fats and proteins to carbs, and that's what's important.

Good luck this go-around.

Thanks, Peter. I will do my best this time....ERM

Saffire wrote:

Hi Eric, welcome back to the group!

Quoted message said:

It sounds like you know what to do. You don't HAVE to eat fatty meats
on low-carb. If you are getting your fats from cheeses and oils, I
don't see a problem with that. I don't eat a lot of red meat, either.
I just don't care for it all that much and eat mostly chicken, seafood
and fish for protein, although with poultry I prefer the dark meat (and
skin -- that's another thing I really like about going low-carb -- I
have free reign to eat chicken skin again :-) and can't stand the white
meat unless it's slathered in mayo like I used to do as a kid with
sandwiches -- it's just too dry for my tastes. I think that's a part of
why I don't eat much red meat, either -- to me, it's a chore to chew it.
One exception that I've been making for that over the last year is beef
tongue -- it is SOOO flavorful and INCREDIBLY tender. I have to go to a
special store to get it, though (they also carry sheep heads, pigs feet,
etc.)

I've been posting here since mid-2003, so I probably missed your
previous posts, but I've stayed low carb the entire time. Part of that
is that I haven't quite reached my goal weight yet, but a big part of it
is that I've made a commitment to STAYING low carb. That's because I
FEEL so much better while eating that way, and it's a powerful incentive
for me in that way. It sounds like you need to make a commitment to a
WOE, low-carb or otherwise, and stick to it even after you lose the
weight.

Thanks for the advice, Saffire. Also your progress photos are
impressive.

I've posted here maybe a dozen times over the past three or four years,
from at least three email addresses, so I'm not surprised my name is
not familiar. I've lurked semi-regularly most of that time and have
noticed your posts.

What's your take on the "fat curbs your hunger" theory?

Regards,
Eric M
252/252/210 (269 peak)

FOB said:

Fat doesn't have to come with meat. A little heavy cream goes a long way
and there are lots of things you can do with it, ranch dressing, mayo type
dressings, butter on your veggies, cheese, olives, avocadoes.... Here's a
treat I've been making lately. Put a handful (1/4 to 1/3 cup) of frozen
berries in a dish. I use the Triple Berry Blend from Costco. Pour about an
equal amount of heavy cream on and add a bit of Splenda, stir a bit to
soften the berries, then crush them with the back of the spoon and stir some
more, add more cream if needed to make a lovely berry ice cream. Takes less
than five minutes and is delicious.

Thanks. This sounds yummy; I'll think about trying it once I detox off
the taste of anything sweet. One of the best things about low-carb is
heavy cream....ERM

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the advice, Saffire. Also your progress photos are
impressive.

You're welcome, and thank you!

Quoted message said:

What's your take on the "fat curbs your hunger" theory?

I think it DOES help as far as hunger goes, although I don't generally
use it for that specific purpose -- I figure I get enough calories and
fat in a day without going overboard. I know that there have been
occasions where I've succumbed to temptation and eaten way too much
bacon at one time (like cooking a package of "ends and pieces" for the
rendered fat and then nibbling non-stop on what's left, which still had
plenty of fat in it), and I felt stuffed for HOURS afterward.

--
Saffire
205/132/125
Atkins since 6/14/03
Progress photo: http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

*** This post originated in alt.support.diet.low-carb -- its appearance
in any other forum is deceptive and unauthorized. ***

"Doug Freyburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Eric said:

Now before you all jump on me with the Atkins mantra "you can't do
low-fat and low-carb at the same time" let me say I do not intend to
eat a LOW-fat diet. There will always be a place for meat and cheese at
my table. My plan is more like cut out all sugar and processed starch,
get most of my carbs from veggies, have eggs, cheese and cream in
moderation, drink plenty of water and eat all the meat I want....but
the leanest, lowest-calorie meat I can get.

For the same total calories less protein and more fat means more
loss. For the same total calories more protein and less fat means
less loss. It's the glucagon that controls fat withdrawal from
storage and glucagon is indirectly driven by dietary fat. So expect
your loss rates to be a bit less than before. But think about it.
The biggest open secret out there is the ones who don't quit are
the sucessfull ones. If it means you don't quit then loss rates
don't matter.

Calorie for calorie both fat and protein are more satiating than carbs.
Calorie for calorie fat is more satiating than protein.

For me this is simply not true. I find no difference between skim milk
cheese and whole milk cheese in terms of satiety. I switched to low(er) fat
because I will last longer this way and it's less calories, period.

I still eat fat but try to eat as much mono fat as I can stand and limit
saturated fat.

Eric said:

It was
never clear to me, at least after Induction was over, exactly what it
meant to be "on Atkins OWL" as opposed to "on Protein Power" or
whatever.

Dr A was a poor writer. He used ketosis and loss interchangably
when they clearly aren't. You can be in ketosis for years on end
without loss if you do it sufficiently wrong. And he defines a
stall as a month without a new low but doesn't seem to jive that
wih the OWL plan. Conclusion - Look in the 1972 book and he's
explicit that he means ketosis not new lows on the scale. There
are several other examples in his books of topics he words poorly.

Also Atkins is two conceptual parts done at the same time.
One is using carbs as a tool to trigger loss (not as an enemy to
be avoided). The other is an elimination system to isolate and
identify problem foods - binge triggers, symptom causes, slippery
slope tempters and such.

So in OWL there is a schedule of carb quotas to be followed by
week until you're out of ketosis. 20, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 ... and so
on until you're out of ketosis for a full week. Anything short of a
full week isn't enough because of uncertain counts, old sticks,
random flucuation, you name it. The the initial goal of OWL is
to get *out* of ketosis, very counter-intuitive for people with a
fixed idea of what low carb is. Then a week low to get back into
ketosis then cruise at 5-10 below the amount that kicked you out.
The principle is the less the carbs the more the body will trigger
starvation mode so the highest carb intake that triggers loss will
give the fewest stalls. Also higher carb intakes mean more
veggies and veggies are good. The principle is also that while
losing so long as you're in ketosis the fact that you're in ketosis
is more important than the exact carb intake. So just barely in
ketosis gives roughly the same month-to-month loss rates as
any level below, but it also gives fewer stalls. The driving hormones
are thyroid T3 and leptin - Both drop in response to carb intake
that's too low, whatever too low means. Of course vast numbers
want there to be no such thing as too low. By the way, CCLLs
range from 15 to 150 but they cluster near 50. You can't know
yours from learning anyone else's any more than you can tell
how tall your kids will be by looking at other kids so you have
to go through the process to find out, but don't be surprised if
you fall out of ketosis somewhere near 60. At least it gives you
a good idea of how many weeks it *usually* takes marching up
in the quota numbers, but you never know for real until that
week out of ketosis.

The isolation principle is built into the carb ladder. Once in
week 3+ you add a 5 carb-gram serving of something from the
next rung of the ladder for half a week. Then for the other
half of the week you add a 5 carb-gram serving of something
else. In both cases you observe your body's reaction closely
and if you get any type of reaction that food becomes suspect.
Since you're trying two items per week you can't test
everything but once you know your CCLL you'll have all the time
in the world to try anything you like against your final OWL
CCLL.

Quoted message said:

Whether fat or protein is more filling is not clear to me; I just know
that bread, cereal, pretzels, pasta, pizza potatoes, etc. turns me into
an insatiable non-stop eating machine. Anything that starts with "p" is
bad, it seems....

Pike bad, salmon good. Parsnips bad, carrots good. ;^)

Doug Freyburger said:

Eric said:

It was
never clear to me, at least after Induction was over, exactly what it
meant to be "on Atkins OWL" as opposed to "on Protein Power" or
whatever.

Dr A was a poor writer. He used ketosis and loss interchangably
when they clearly aren't. You can be in ketosis for years on end
without loss if you do it sufficiently wrong. And he defines a
stall as a month without a new low but doesn't seem to jive that
wih the OWL plan. Conclusion - Look in the 1972 book and he's
explicit that he means ketosis not new lows on the scale. There
are several other examples in his books of topics he words poorly.

Also Atkins is two conceptual parts done at the same time.
One is using carbs as a tool to trigger loss (not as an enemy to
be avoided). The other is an elimination system to isolate and
identify problem foods - binge triggers, symptom causes, slippery
slope tempters and such.

So in OWL there is a schedule of carb quotas to be followed by
week until you're out of ketosis. 20, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 ... and so
on until you're out of ketosis for a full week. Anything short of a
full week isn't enough because of uncertain counts, old sticks,
random flucuation, you name it. The the initial goal of OWL is
to get *out* of ketosis, very counter-intuitive for people with a
fixed idea of what low carb is. Then a week low to get back into
ketosis then cruise at 5-10 below the amount that kicked you out.
The principle is the less the carbs the more the body will trigger
starvation mode so the highest carb intake that triggers loss will
give the fewest stalls. Also higher carb intakes mean more
veggies and veggies are good. The principle is also that while
losing so long as you're in ketosis the fact that you're in ketosis
is more important than the exact carb intake. So just barely in
ketosis gives roughly the same month-to-month loss rates as
any level below, but it also gives fewer stalls. The driving hormones
are thyroid T3 and leptin - Both drop in response to carb intake
that's too low, whatever too low means. Of course vast numbers
want there to be no such thing as too low. By the way, CCLLs
range from 15 to 150 but they cluster near 50. You can't know
yours from learning anyone else's any more than you can tell
how tall your kids will be by looking at other kids so you have
to go through the process to find out, but don't be surprised if
you fall out of ketosis somewhere near 60. At least it gives you
a good idea of how many weeks it *usually* takes marching up
in the quota numbers, but you never know for real until that
week out of ketosis.

The isolation principle is built into the carb ladder. Once in
week 3+ you add a 5 carb-gram serving of something from the
next rung of the ladder for half a week. Then for the other
half of the week you add a 5 carb-gram serving of something
else. In both cases you observe your body's reaction closely
and if you get any type of reaction that food becomes suspect.
Since you're trying two items per week you can't test
everything but once you know your CCLL you'll have all the time
in the world to try anything you like against your final OWL
CCLL.

Thanks for the informed explanation, Doug. Sounds like you have studied
the science behnd Atkins in depth. That's kind of the reason I don't
plan to "do Atkins" again, apart from a brief Induction-style system
shock. (No problems with that so far, knocking on wood.)

I'm not interested in keto sticks and tracking everything I eat down to
the last ounce and gram. While it's important to understand the science
of nutrition---maybe better to say the science "behind" nutrition---I
suspect that for most of us with weight/body fat challenges the
psychological/emotional aspect is at least as important. At least I
know it is for me.

The one "scientific" piece of the Atkins puzzle I could never reconcile
is the conflict between
1. Eat all-natural foods like our ancestors thousands of years ago; and

2. Make sure to take nutritional supplements every day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Whether fat or protein is more filling is not clear to me; I just know
that bread, cereal, pretzels, pasta, pizza potatoes, etc. turns me into
an insatiable non-stop eating machine. Anything that starts with "p" is
bad, it seems....

Pike bad, salmon good. Parsnips bad, carrots good. ;^)

Carrots are not low-carb.

Thanks for the advice.

Regards,
Eric M
252/252/210 (Peak 269)