Spoke Tension Measuring Devices

A shy person said:

Can any one recommend a spoke tensioning tool? I know of the Park TM
1 and DT Swiss Tensio. The Park is cheaper and more basic than the
DT tool, can any one list the pros and cons of either?

The instrument is known as a tensiometer (not tension-ometer) and most
of the ones offered have significant failings.

I see four criteria that good tensiometers should meet:

1. Use a test load small enough that it doesn't affect initial tension
of the spoke to be measured.

2. To meet the first objective requires a precision gauge with 0.01mm
resolution.

3. To enable using a light test load requires zeroing the instrument
on the spoke to be measured, both because it might have a kink or
is being measured across its butted and slender portion.

4. Support of the spoke and measurement must be from the same side
instead of across the thickness of the spoke (something nearly all
do including spoke thickness in the reading).

With the above design criteria, readings of spokes from 1/5mm to 2.0mm
diameter follow nearly the same curve so that corrections for
different spokes need not be invoked.

In addition, the instrument should be one handed in use and zeroing on
the fly in that one hand. Spoke support should be on ball bearings to
avoid longitudinal friction between support and depressor.

Quoted message said:

Are there any others readily available?

Yes.

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=162

Jobst Brandt

I use the FSA one and it is great.
Works on all shapes of spoke,
and is very consistent.

Ted

[email hidden] wrote:> Are there any others readily
available?

Quoted message said:

Yes.

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=162

Jobst Brandt

And one can purchase them on line, from which source? Price
(approximately)?

Thanks! :-)

Ken
Canada

Ken Pisichko said:

[email hidden] wrote:> Are there any others readily
available?

Quoted message said:

Yes.

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=162

Jobst Brandt

And one can purchase them on line, from which source? Price
(approximately)?

US$249

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?tc=Tension%20Meters&item_id=FS-STM

alternate URL:

http://tinyurl.com/buwb9
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Can any one recomend a spoke tensioning tool? I know of the Park TM 1
and DT Swiss Tensio. The Park is cheaper and more basic than the DT
tool, can any one list the pros and cons of either?

Are there any others readily available?

CC

Wheelsmith and Park for the garage wheelbuilder. FSA or DT for shop
use.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I use the FSA one and it is great.
Works on all shapes of spoke,
and is very consistent.

How much did it cost?
--------------
Alex

[email hidden] wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Yes.

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=162

Jobst Brandt

ah, the tensiometer whose designer considers spoke thickness irrelevant
to the deflection equation. that's in the same league as the spokes
whose fatigue is attributed to residual stress [that can be "cured" by
witchcraft] rather than being a fundamentally manifest by non-axial loading.

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=162

ah, the tensiometer whose designer considers spoke thickness irrelevant
to the deflection equation.

Dude. You should get another hobby besides slagging Jobst. It's
proving to be way more noise than signal.

I don't know whether Jobst does or doesn't consider spoke gauge
irrelevant to spoke tension measurement, but I am certain that spoke
thickness is taken into account in the conversion charts that come with
the FSA tensiometer. Are you disputing the ability of the FSA device
to deliver an accurate measurement?

Chalo Colina

Chalo said:

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=162

ah, the tensiometer whose designer considers spoke thickness irrelevant
to the deflection equation.

Dude. You should get another hobby besides slagging Jobst. It's
proving to be way more noise than signal.

I don't know whether Jobst does or doesn't consider spoke gauge
irrelevant to spoke tension measurement, but I am certain that spoke
thickness is taken into account in the conversion charts that come with
the FSA tensiometer. Are you disputing the ability of the FSA device
to deliver an accurate measurement?

Chalo Colina

you must be thinking of one of the other tensiometers - because if you
check the link above it proclaims: "Unique deflection system gives
universal readings irrespective of spoke gauge". which accords with
jobst's deflection equation in his book which similarly absent any
reference to spoke gauge.

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

Can any one recomend a spoke tensioning tool? I know of the Park TM 1
and DT Swiss Tensio. The Park is cheaper and more basic than the DT
tool, can any one list the pros and cons of either?

Are there any others readily available?

CC

Wheelsmith and Park for the garage wheelbuilder....

Hey Peter,

I need some new wheels for my garage. How much do you charge per set?
😉

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

Jobst Brandt said:

A shy person said:

Can any one recommend a spoke tensioning tool? I know of the Park TM
1 and DT Swiss Tensio. The Park is cheaper and more basic than the
DT tool, can any one list the pros and cons of either?

The instrument is known as a tensiometer (not tension-ometer) and most
of the ones offered have significant failings.

I see four criteria that good tensiometers should meet:

1. Use a test load small enough that it doesn't affect initial tension
of the spoke to be measured.

2. To meet the first objective requires a precision gauge with 0.01mm
resolution.

3. To enable using a light test load requires zeroing the instrument
on the spoke to be measured, both because it might have a kink or
is being measured across its butted and slender portion.

4. Support of the spoke and measurement must be from the same side
instead of across the thickness of the spoke (something nearly all
do including spoke thickness in the reading).

With the above design criteria, readings of spokes from 1/5mm to 2.0mm
diameter follow nearly the same curve so that corrections for
different spokes need not be invoked.

In addition, the instrument should be one handed in use and zeroing on
the fly in that one hand. Spoke support should be on ball bearings to
avoid longitudinal friction between support and depressor....

One could also solder a strain gauge to each spoke before tensioning
the wheel. 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

quote=''A shy person said:

Can any one recommend a spoke tensioning tool? I know of the Park TM
1 and DT Swiss Tensio. The Park is cheaper and more basic than the
DT tool, can any one list the pros and cons of either?

The instrument is known as a tensiometer (not tension-ometer) and most
of the ones offered have significant failings.

I see four criteria that good tensiometers should meet:

1. Use a test load small enough that it doesn't affect initial tension
of the spoke to be measured.

2. To meet the first objective requires a precision gauge with 0.01mm
resolution.

3. To enable using a light test load requires zeroing the instrument
on the spoke to be measured, both because it might have a kink or
is being measured across its butted and slender portion.

4. Support of the spoke and measurement must be from the same side
instead of across the thickness of the spoke (something nearly all
do including spoke thickness in the reading).

With the above design criteria, readings of spokes from 1/5mm to 2.0mm
diameter follow nearly the same curve so that corrections for
different spokes need not be invoked.

In addition, the instrument should be one handed in use and zeroing on
the fly in that one hand. Spoke support should be on ball bearings to
avoid longitudinal friction between support and depressor.

Quoted message said:

Are there any others readily available?

Yes.

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=162

Jobst Brandt[/QUOTE]

Please explain why item 4 is such an issue.
For reference please use a 14/15 DB spoke where the ends of the device like the Wheelsmith or Park tool rest within the butted section and the goal is to tension balance within 5%.
Please explain the real benefit of the FSA device in attaining the same tension balance. Also, since the FSA Web Page doesn't make it clear, how does one take the deflection measurement and translate it to a tension number in kgf.

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can any one recommend a spoke tensioning tool? I know of the Park
TM 1 and DT Swiss Tensio. The Park is cheaper and more basic than
the DT tool, can any one list the pros and cons of either?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The instrument is known as a tensiometer (not tension-ometer) and
most of the ones offered have significant failings.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I see four criteria that good tensiometers should meet:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Use a test load small enough that it doesn't affect initial
tension of the spoke to be measured.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. To meet the first objective requires a precision gauge with
0.01mm resolution.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. To enable using a light test load requires zeroing the
instrument on the spoke to be measured, both because it might have
a kink or is being measured across its butted and slender portion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. Support of the spoke and measurement must be from the same side
instead of across the thickness of the spoke (something nearly all
do including spoke thickness in the reading).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With the above design criteria, readings of spokes from 1/5mm to
2.0mm diameter follow nearly the same curve so that corrections for
different spokes need not be invoked.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In addition, the instrument should be one handed in use and zeroing
on the fly in that one hand. Spoke support should be on ball
bearings to avoid longitudinal friction between support and
depressor...

Quoted message said:

One could also solder a strain gauge to each spoke before tensioning
the wheel.

That has been tried and proves to be more difficult that it first
appears. Spoke twist enters into the readings to make them not as
diagnostic as mechanical tensiometer measurements. It is the light
test load and the one sided measurement that makes spoke gauge almost
irrelevant to the readings.

Comparison charts made on a tensile tester show that curves for 1.6,
1.8 and 2.0mm diameter spokes are close enough to make no practical
difference, especially when desired tension for similar wheels lies in
a narrow band so that the differences in the high tension region where
deflections are small, bending hardly enters the measurement.

Rick Hjertberg, who lead the design team at FSA has used such a
tensiometer since the earliest days of his Palo Alto bicycle shop
where Wheelsmith originated. He also has my two first prototypes of
that device. Using is ti far more convincing than talking about it,
especially if another manufacturer's unit is there fore comparison.

Jobst Brandt

jim beam said:

Chalo said:

jim beam said:

>http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=162

ah, the tensiometer whose designer considers spoke thickness irrelevant
to the deflection equation.

Dude. You should get another hobby besides slagging Jobst. It's
proving to be way more noise than signal.

I don't know whether Jobst does or doesn't consider spoke gauge
irrelevant to spoke tension measurement, but I am certain that spoke
thickness is taken into account in the conversion charts that come with
the FSA tensiometer. Are you disputing the ability of the FSA device
to deliver an accurate measurement? Chalo Colina

you must be thinking of one of the other tensiometers - because if you
check the link above it proclaims: "Unique deflection system gives
universal readings irrespective of spoke gauge". which accords with
jobst's deflection equation in his book which similarly absent any
reference to spoke gauge.

http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/showphoto.php?photo=1123&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=500

or http://tinyurl.com/75glz

Dave Ornee said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can any one recommend a spoke tensioning tool? I know of the Park TM
1 and DT Swiss Tensio. The Park is cheaper and more basic than the
DT tool, can any one list the pros and cons of either?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The instrument is known as a tensiometer (not tension-ometer) and most
of the ones offered have significant failings.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I see four criteria that good tensiometers should meet:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Use a test load small enough that it doesn't affect initial tension
of the spoke to be measured.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. To meet the first objective requires a precision gauge with 0.01mm
resolution.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. To enable using a light test load requires zeroing the instrument
on the spoke to be measured, both because it might have a kink or
is being measured across its butted and slender portion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. Support of the spoke and measurement must be from the same side
instead of across the thickness of the spoke (something nearly all
do including spoke thickness in the reading).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With the above design criteria, readings of spokes from 1/5mm to 2.0mm
diameter follow nearly the same curve so that corrections for
different spokes need not be invoked.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In addition, the instrument should be one handed in use and zeroing on
the fly in that one hand. Spoke support should be on ball bearings to
avoid longitudinal friction between support and depressor.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are there any others readily available?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://tinyurl.com/7ogpr

Quoted message said:

Please explain why item 4 is such an issue.

All other instruments measure across the spoke thickness so that if
the spoke being measured is 1.5mm in diameter, its reading differs
mainly from that of a 2.0mm spoke by 0.5mm, a larger value than the
deflection if the instrument is using an appropriately light test load.

Getting back to the light test load, the Hozan gauge uses a load large
enough to show a slack spoke to have tension close to the desired
because the test load tensions the spoke. This is especially true
with small diameter wheels.

Quoted message said:

For reference please use a 14/15 DB spoke where the ends of the
device like the Wheelsmith or Park tool rest within the butted
section and the goal is to tension balance within 5%.

I think you can deduce why supporting the spoke from the same side is
important if you realize that zeroing the instrument on the spoke
being tested before applying the test load. I don't see a convenient
way of doing that is the measurement probe is the one that applies the
load (across the spoke).

Quoted message said:

Please explain the real benefit of the FSA device in attaining the
same tension balance. Also, since the FSA Web Page doesn't make it
clear, how does one take the deflection measurement and translate it
to a tension number in kgf.

A conversion graph is supplied but a user soon thinks of proper spoke
tension in MM deflection. On my uncalibrated instrument, 0.013" is
appropriate tension for right rear spokes on my 36-spoke wheels.
Putting the instrument on spokes and zeroing the dial with the thumb
before applying the load is not noticeable by an observer who hasn't
used the device.

This is to measure tension but balancing tension, for a person who is
not tone deaf, is far faster and simpler by plucking spokes for tone.
Sampling several spokes to determine whether the wheel is up to proper
tension is done with the tensiometer but as most wheel builders will
tell you, tone is the easiest and quickest way to balance tension.

Jobst Brandt

jim beam said:

Chalo said:

I don't know whether Jobst does or doesn't consider spoke gauge
irrelevant to spoke tension measurement, but I am certain that spoke
thickness is taken into account in the conversion charts that come with
the FSA tensiometer. Are you disputing the ability of the FSA device
to deliver an accurate measurement?

you must be thinking of one of the other tensiometers - because if you
check the link above it proclaims: "Unique deflection system gives
universal readings irrespective of spoke gauge". which accords with
jobst's deflection equation in his book which similarly absent any
reference to spoke gauge.

You miss what I am saying. The gauge on the FSA tensiometer reads in
..01 mm increments, not in kgf increments. There is a conversion table
involved. Whether spoke gauge influences the reading because it
significantly affects deflection, because the simple thickness of the
spoke is measured, or whether spoke gauge has no effect on measurement,
is irrelevant-- the tool in question is a gauge, not a scientific
experiment. All that matters is that the values in the supplied
conversion table have a good correlation to actual spoke tension.

Are you are suggesting that FSA's conversion table is inaccurate? If
you have a good reason to think so, I'm sure that many of us would like
to know what it is.

Chalo Colina

Someone said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

Can any one recomend a spoke tensioning tool? I know of the Park TM 1
and DT Swiss Tensio. The Park is cheaper and more basic than the DT
tool, can any one list the pros and cons of either?

Are there any others readily available?

CC

Wheelsmith and Park for the garage wheelbuilder....

Hey Peter,

I need some new wheels for my garage. How much do you charge per set?

Depends on the components of course, but $45 labor per wheel.

Someone said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

Can any one recomend a spoke tensioning tool? I know of the Park TM 1
and DT Swiss Tensio. The Park is cheaper and more basic than the DT
tool, can any one list the pros and cons of either?

Are there any others readily available?

CC

Wheelsmith and Park for the garage wheelbuilder....

Hey Peter,

I need some new wheels for my garage. How much do you charge per set?

Ohh I get it...gotta be less subtle than that.....

Quoted message said:

😉

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

Chalo said:

jim beam said:

Chalo said:

I don't know whether Jobst does or doesn't consider spoke gauge
irrelevant to spoke tension measurement, but I am certain that spoke
thickness is taken into account in the conversion charts that come with
the FSA tensiometer. Are you disputing the ability of the FSA device
to deliver an accurate measurement?

you must be thinking of one of the other tensiometers - because if you
check the link above it proclaims: "Unique deflection system gives
universal readings irrespective of spoke gauge". which accords with
jobst's deflection equation in his book which similarly absent any
reference to spoke gauge.

You miss what I am saying. The gauge on the FSA tensiometer reads in
.01 mm increments, not in kgf increments. There is a conversion table
involved.

ok, and thanks to andrew for pointing that out as well.

Quoted message said:

Whether spoke gauge influences the reading because it
significantly affects deflection, because the simple thickness of the
spoke is measured, or whether spoke gauge has no effect on measurement,
is irrelevant-- the tool in question is a gauge, not a scientific
experiment. All that matters is that the values in the supplied
conversion table have a good correlation to actual spoke tension.

Are you are suggesting that FSA's conversion table is inaccurate? If
you have a good reason to think so, I'm sure that many of us would like
to know what it is.

Chalo Colina

i was under the impression from the marketing blurb ["No more need for
elaborate conversion charts"] that there was no conversion table. even
so, from what i can see, the table makes allowance for only two steel
spoke gauges, 14 and <14. that may be argued on the basis of
diminishing accuracy percentage, but that in turn makes you wonder why
it's worth it's bothering with other features like ball bearing anvils
on a $250 instrument when a $50 instrument with a decent conversion
table can be just as good.