Why so few spokes?

[email hidden said:

"]Why do modern bikes have so few spokes? Surely this must mean that the
wheels have less strength? I have a very old bike that has 40 spokes on
the real wheel and two bikes with 36 spokes but many bikes have just 32
spokes. On the other hand, very expensive wheels now have only 20
spokes or maybe less! Is it to reduce labour costs during construction
or just a way of reducing weight at the expense of strength?

Doug.

They're typically more aerodynamic especially when they are bladed.

Quoted message said:

Why do modern bikes have so few spokes?

Because marketing people know that there are buyers who can be
convinced to pay more for bikes with wheels like that because they're
kewl.

Quoted message said:

Surely this must mean that the
wheels have less strength?

The rims have to be stronger in order for the design to work, and
typically the spokes are thicker, but the resulting wheel's "strength"
is a characteristic that's difficult to quantify...and as for whether
they're stronger that older wheels, there is no blanket comparison
that's meaningful. Yes, it's possible to find comparisons in which
the minimally-spoked unit is demonstrably more resistant to some forms
of damage or deflection than high-spoke-count wheel...but the reverse
is also possible. One thing which has been noted many times, however,
is that low-spoke-count wheels tend to have one significant drawback;
break a spoke, and you may find yourself walking home due to the
wobble that results.

Quoted message said:

I have a very old bike that has 40 spokes on
the real wheel and two bikes with 36 spokes but many bikes have just 32
spokes. On the other hand, very expensive wheels now have only 20
spokes or maybe less! Is it to reduce labour costs during construction
or just a way of reducing weight at the expense of strength?

The change from 40 to 36 to 32 reflects both improvements in materials
and the profit-driven impetus to reduce manufacturing costs. The
further reductions below 28 are largely style-driven. The desire for
the appearance was not what produced them, though. It should be noted
that while the development of deep-vee rims was driven by the pursuit
of reductions in aerodynamic drag, the resulting rims were found to be
sufficiently stiff that they could be used with fewer spokes. As is
often true in such a situation, the limits of reasonable practice were
approached and exceeded in the quest for the ultimate reduction in
spoke count once the presence of a market for minimal-spoke wheels was
discovered.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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I have moved into a set of mavic open pros and found them to be a
wonderful wheel. I am at a level where weight doesn't matter as much
as durability, and a nice 32-spoke cross3 wheelset works fine.

Quoted message said:

Why do modern bikes have so few spokes? Surely this must mean that the
wheels have less strength? I have a very old bike that has 40 spokes on
the real wheel and two bikes with 36 spokes but many bikes have just 32
spokes. On the other hand, very expensive wheels now have only 20
spokes or maybe less! Is it to reduce labour costs during construction
or just a way of reducing weight at the expense of strength?

A bit of each, and advances in metallurgy and wheel construction have made
modern low-spoke-count wheels at least as strong as older wheels with more
spokes.

--

John ([email hidden])

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Why do modern bikes have so few spokes?

Fashion and to a lesser degree, better aerodynamics.

Quoted message said:

Surely this must mean that the wheels have less strength?

Not necessarily. Strength is related to spoke tension. So for a wheel with
less spokes, you can get the same strength by raising the spoke tension. You
can only do this to a point.

-------------------
Alex

I saw one time here that Sheldon Brown builds a one spoke wheel, might
want to check that out. If the spoke and wheel are strong enough that's all
you would need.

Claudius Vitalis said:

I saw one time here that Sheldon Brown builds a one spoke wheel, might
want to check that out. If the spoke and wheel are strong enough that's all
you would need.

He builds it in his photoshop...
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

John Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

Why do modern bikes have so few spokes? Surely this must mean that
the wheels have less strength? I have a very old bike that has 40
spokes on the real wheel and two bikes with 36 spokes but many
bikes have just 32 spokes. On the other hand, very expensive wheels
now have only 20 spokes or maybe less! Is it to reduce labour costs
during construction or just a way of reducing weight at the expense
of strength?

Quoted message said:

A bit of each, and advances in metallurgy and wheel construction
have made modern low-spoke-count wheels at least as strong as older
wheels with more spokes.

The modulus of elasticity of aluminum hasn't changed significantly
over the last 20 years but the number of spokes and weight have.
Today if one spoke breaks the wheel is usually not ridable, but even
if it were, frame clearances have been reduced to a point where a
wobbly wheel won't turn anyway but just in case that doesn't stop you,
dual pivot brakes cannot track an out of true wheel as former side
pull brakes did.

That's progress!

On long rides, I haver ridden all day and then some with one failed
spoke with those ancient components that are hard to find on anyone's
bicycle today. The assumption seems to be that we are all sponsored
racers with a follow car to bail us out whenever something goes amiss.

There is no valid excuse for the majority of riders and their choice
of this flimsy equipment. The trouble is that so many riders are
buying this stuff without complaint that more reliable, far less
expensive products are no longer sold. One is lead to believe that
because an otherwise 25mph TT rider can improve his ET by almost a
minute that the average rider will experience an equal improvement.

That is like the spoilers on the backs of cars that emulate but do not
function as those on 150mph racing cars, will improve commute times as
well as road holding at speeds one might attain on a deserted public
road.

Even 32 spoke wheels don't do well with one spoke failure but then
they are 4/36th less air drag (of the spokes) than a 36-spoke wheel.
No mentions what the rest of the wheel drag is or the whole bicycle
and rider, for that matter. It's similar to V12 Ferraris cruising the
streets, noisy (inside) rough riding and expensive cars that cannot go
faster than the prevailing traffic, offering mainly image rather than
substance, not to mention the frustration of perpetually being stuck
at the rear of a column of cars. All that expensive hardware does not
improve the experience.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Why do modern bikes have so few spokes? Surely this must mean that the
wheels have less strength? I have a very old bike that has 40 spokes on
the real wheel and two bikes with 36 spokes but many bikes have just 32
spokes. On the other hand, very expensive wheels now have only 20
spokes or maybe less! Is it to reduce labour costs during construction
or just a way of reducing weight at the expense of strength?

Doug.

It's all about looks and marketing, not about performance. Some wheel
designers will go so far as to say their design(like paired spoke
'technology' is superior...which is just plain BS.

These low spoke count wheels, to offer even a sliver of reliability,
have to have heavier rims. They reduce the weight of spokes by 120g (16
spokes) but to make the wheel reliable they add 200 grams to the weight
of the rim....

It's all such crappola, it just wears me out.

John Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

Why do modern bikes have so few spokes? Surely this must mean that the
wheels have less strength? I have a very old bike that has 40 spokes on
the real wheel and two bikes with 36 spokes but many bikes have just 32
spokes. On the other hand, very expensive wheels now have only 20
spokes or maybe less! Is it to reduce labour costs during construction
or just a way of reducing weight at the expense of strength?

A bit of each, and advances in metallurgy and wheel construction have made
modern low-spoke-count wheels at least as strong as older wheels with more
spokes.

Balderdash...A 16 spoke wheel regardless of 'advances in metallurgy and
wheel construction' has not become as relaible as a similar weight,
well built 32 or 36 spoke wheel.

Modern rims, like Velocity and some Mavic have the same 'metallurgy' as
these 16 spoke 'wonders', and the buoid quality from a wheel factory is
typically awful....

'Older wheels', we are not comparing wheels from that 1960 Puegeot, ya
know. Rims and spokes and hubs are still available and some of us still
build wheels.

Quoted message said:

--

John ([email hidden])

Quoted message said:

It's similar to V12 Ferraris cruising the
streets, noisy (inside) rough riding and expensive cars that cannot go
faster than the prevailing traffic, offering mainly image rather than
substance, not to mention the frustration of perpetually being stuck
at the rear of a column of cars. All that expensive hardware does not
improve the experience.

You'd better hope there are no traffic bumps, either.

Jasper

Quoted message said:

That is like the spoilers on the backs of cars that emulate but do not
function as those on 150mph racing cars, will improve commute times as
well as road holding at speeds one might attain on a deserted public
road.

I always enjoy seeing spoilers on front wheel drive cars.

Quoted message said:

Even 32 spoke wheels don't do well with one spoke failure but then
they are 4/36th less air drag (of the spokes) than a 36-spoke wheel.

I've broken spokes on 32 spoke Open Pro/Reflex wheels and they do OK.
A fairly quick and simple job with a spoke wrench on the side of the
road allows you to continue the ride, even with wonderful to squeeze
dual pivot brakes. 36 would probably be better. But I also broke an
Open Pro rim in a crash at the end of a two day ride and it was very
simple to just buy a 32 spoke Open Pro rim from the supporting bicycle
shop's trailer. It is highly unlikely the trailer had 36 spoke rims.
So in this case, and probably most others, having 32 spoke wheels
allowed me to continue the ride while having a 36 spoke wheel would
have meant riding in a car on the second day. On a week long ride a
person broke a Ksyrium spoke. The supporting bike shop had a
replacement spoke for the Ksyrium and was able to fix the wheel and get
the person back on the road the next day. Ksyrium wheels have become
so common that their replacement parts are common. Whereas the old
time 36 spoke rims may be much harder to find when you need one now.

Quoted message said:

Why do modern bikes have so few spokes? Surely this must mean that the
wheels have less strength? I have a very old bike that has 40 spokes on
the real wheel and two bikes with 36 spokes but many bikes have just 32
spokes. On the other hand, very expensive wheels now have only 20
spokes or maybe less! Is it to reduce labour costs during construction
or just a way of reducing weight at the expense of strength?

Doug.

the original reason for high spoke counts was that they had very poor
fatigue lives. reducing individual loads by increasing count helped
mitigate the problem. now, spoke wire quality is much improved,
therefore fatigue lives have increased significantly; ergo spoke count
can be reduced. real simple.

Quoted message said:

I've broken spokes on 32 spoke Open Pro/Reflex wheels and they do OK.
A fairly quick and simple job with a spoke wrench on the side of the
road allows you to continue the ride, even with wonderful to squeeze
dual pivot brakes. 36 would probably be better. But I also broke an
Open Pro rim in a crash at the end of a two day ride and it was very
simple to just buy a 32 spoke Open Pro rim from the supporting bicycle
shop's trailer. It is highly unlikely the trailer had 36 spoke rims.
So in this case, and probably most others, having 32 spoke wheels
allowed me to continue the ride while having a 36 spoke wheel would
have meant riding in a car on the second day.

Hmm. You broke both spokes and a rim on 32 spoke wheels, but they're
better than 36 because the SAG had 32 spoke rims?

Could it be the SAG doesn't bother carrying 36 spoke rims because they
don't break?

I run 36 spokes on most bikes. I prefer having things not break,
partly because I almost never have a SAG wagon following me.

- Frank Krygowski

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've broken spokes on 32 spoke Open Pro/Reflex wheels and they do OK.
A fairly quick and simple job with a spoke wrench on the side of the
road allows you to continue the ride, even with wonderful to squeeze
dual pivot brakes. 36 would probably be better. But I also broke an
Open Pro rim in a crash at the end of a two day ride and it was very
simple to just buy a 32 spoke Open Pro rim from the supporting
bicycle shop's trailer. It is highly unlikely the trailer had 36
spoke rims. So in this case, and probably most others, having 32
spoke wheels allowed me to continue the ride while having a 36 spoke
wheel would have meant riding in a car on the second day.

Hmm. You broke both spokes and a rim on 32 spoke wheels, but they're
better than 36 because the SAG had 32 spoke rims?

Why stop there ? Why not 40 or 48 ? What's so magic about 36 ?
Actually, nothing.

Quoted message said:

Could it be the SAG doesn't bother carrying 36 spoke rims because they
don't break?

No. Probably not the reason. They treat common types of wheels on
contemporary bikes. They probably don't have 22 spoke rims, either. Or
even spokes for Spox.

It's a sag wagon, not a distribution center.
--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
--
Sandy
--
S'endormir au volant, c'est très dangereux.
S'endormir à vélo, c'est très rare.
S'endormir à pied, c'est très con.
- Geluck, P.

Sandy said:

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Hmm. You broke both spokes and a rim on 32 spoke wheels, but they're
better than 36 because the SAG had 32 spoke rims?

Why stop there ? Why not 40 or 48 ? What's so magic about 36 ?
Actually, nothing.

Actually, I've got 48 on the rear of our tandem, so no need to stop at
36. But 36 spokes was long the default number, and in my experience,
well-built 36 spoke wheels are extremely reliable.

The major point is, of course, that increasing spoke count leads to a
stronger and more robust wheel. One can choose whatever spoke count
satisfies their personal balance of benefit vs. detriment. But as in
many bike related choices, the fashionable and supposedly "racy"
benefits are exaggerated, and the detriments are downplayed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Could it be the SAG doesn't bother carrying 36 spoke rims because they
don't break?

No. Probably not the reason. They treat common types of wheels on
contemporary bikes. They probably don't have 22 spoke rims, either. Or
even spokes for Spox.

It's a sag wagon, not a distribution center.

Ah well. I've driven sag many, many times (the last about three months
ago) and I've never carried spare rims at all. It would seem odd to
replace a rim in the middle of a ride, anyway.

BTW, on one long tour out in the American west, my family passed a
supported charity ride heading cross country in the opposite direction.
Two of the college kids were waiting by the side of the desolate road
for their support vehicle. Seems the rear low-spoke-count wheel on one
bike had broken a spoke. The rim would no longer clear the brakes.

I offered to help with one of my spares, but my old-fashioned stainless
steel spokes wouldn't fit the high-tech wheel, and my standard spoke
wrench wouldn't turn that wheel's fancy spoke nipples. All I could do
at the time was spread the rear brake wide (a simple operation that
impressed the college kid) and tell him how far the next town was.
Later, we spotted their support vehicle and alerted them to the
problem.

We were carrying camping gear. They were unladen. Our 36 spoke wheels
carried us reliably down the road, as usual.

- Frank Krygowski

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Sandy said:

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why stop there ? Why not 40 or 48 ? What's so magic about 36 ?
Actually, nothing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Could it be the SAG doesn't bother carrying 36 spoke rims because
they don't break?

No. Probably not the reason. They treat common types of wheels on
contemporary bikes. They probably don't have 22 spoke rims, either.
Or even spokes for Spox.

It's a sag wagon, not a distribution center.

That's right - nothing special about 36, as you point out. A broken rim
would not typically find a replacement rim, but a replacement wheel, or a
bus ticket, no matter if it's 22, 32 or 48.

With all the self-congratulatory words in this forum about proper spoke
tensioning, et c., I'm surprised that there's even a minor controversy over
the number of spokes, since they can expect 100 000 miles of use, anyway.
It's more likely the pothole-eaten rim that will stop a ride. But why
follow logic .....

--
Sandy
--
Mobilité et stabilité ne sont pas antinomiques :
un cycliste n'est stable sur sa bicyclette
qu'en avançant.
- Chirac, J (who must have read Einstein)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've broken spokes on 32 spoke Open Pro/Reflex wheels and they do OK.
A fairly quick and simple job with a spoke wrench on the side of the
road allows you to continue the ride, even with wonderful to squeeze
dual pivot brakes. 36 would probably be better. But I also broke an
Open Pro rim in a crash at the end of a two day ride and it was very
simple to just buy a 32 spoke Open Pro rim from the supporting bicycle
shop's trailer. It is highly unlikely the trailer had 36 spoke rims.
So in this case, and probably most others, having 32 spoke wheels
allowed me to continue the ride while having a 36 spoke wheel would
have meant riding in a car on the second day.

Hmm. You broke both spokes and a rim on 32 spoke wheels, but they're
better than 36 because the SAG had 32 spoke rims?

Could it be the SAG doesn't bother carrying 36 spoke rims because they
don't break?

As explained in the text, it was a crash. This crash would have broken
the rim of 48, 40, 36, 32, or 28 spoke wheels. It is very possible
that a deep V rim such as I have on my Campagnolo Vento wheels would
not have broken because that is a very heavy, stiff, strong rim.

The supporting bicycle shop's trailer did not carry 36 spoke rims
because no one rides them so they would have no hope of selling them.
Bicycle shops who support rides tend to carry what the riders are
using. A supporting bicycle shop isn't very supporting if it does not
have the parts the riders need. Seems kind of logical, doesn't it.

Quoted message said:

I run 36 spokes on most bikes. I prefer having things not break,
partly because I almost never have a SAG wagon following me.

You've never been on a ride that had a bicycle shop supporting it? Why
don't you participate in organized rides? Every organized ride I've
ever been on, RAGBRAI, BAK, TRIRI, CNC, BRAT, CANDISC, HHH, Pedal
Peaks, etc. has always had a supporting bicycle shop along.

Quoted message said:

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Sandy said:

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Hmm. You broke both spokes and a rim on 32 spoke wheels, but they're
better than 36 because the SAG had 32 spoke rims?

Why stop there ? Why not 40 or 48 ? What's so magic about 36 ?
Actually, nothing.

Actually, I've got 48 on the rear of our tandem, so no need to stop at
36. But 36 spokes was long the default number, and in my experience,
well-built 36 spoke wheels are extremely reliable.

The major point is, of course, that increasing spoke count leads to a
stronger and more robust wheel. One can choose whatever spoke count
satisfies their personal balance of benefit vs. detriment. But as in
many bike related choices, the fashionable and supposedly "racy"
benefits are exaggerated, and the detriments are downplayed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Could it be the SAG doesn't bother carrying 36 spoke rims because they
don't break?

No. Probably not the reason. They treat common types of wheels on
contemporary bikes. They probably don't have 22 spoke rims, either. Or
even spokes for Spox.

It's a sag wagon, not a distribution center.

Ah well. I've driven sag many, many times (the last about three months
ago) and I've never carried spare rims at all. It would seem odd to
replace a rim in the middle of a ride, anyway.

You don't seem to understand very well. Driving a sag vehicle is not
the same as being the bicycle shop that provides repairs and support on
organized rides. Organized rides are ones that hundreds to thousands
of people participate in. Extending from one day to one week usually.
The event sponsor organizes the overnight stops, route, food, etc. And
insurance. The event organizer also arranges for a bicycle shop to go
along and provide nightly repair facitlities. And usually the bike
shop also drives along the course during the day to repair bicycles. A
world apart from driving a sag as you claim.

I encourage you to get out and ride with other bicyclists. Take part
in rides near your place of residence. Many rides are quite enjoyable.
And if someone crashes into you and breaks your bike, the supporting
bike shop may be able to patch you up to continue the ride.

Quoted message said:

BTW, on one long tour out in the American west, my family passed a
supported charity ride heading cross country in the opposite direction.
Two of the college kids were waiting by the side of the desolate road
for their support vehicle. Seems the rear low-spoke-count wheel on one
bike had broken a spoke. The rim would no longer clear the brakes.

I offered to help with one of my spares, but my old-fashioned stainless
steel spokes wouldn't fit the high-tech wheel, and my standard spoke
wrench wouldn't turn that wheel's fancy spoke nipples. All I could do
at the time was spread the rear brake wide (a simple operation that
impressed the college kid) and tell him how far the next town was.
Later, we spotted their support vehicle and alerted them to the
problem.

We were carrying camping gear. They were unladen. Our 36 spoke wheels
carried us reliably down the road, as usual.

- Frank Krygowski