Max HR

Bob Creasote said:

Hi,

Does one have a different Max heart Rate for cycling, running and Swimming or is there an absolute
max rate that the heart can beat at and that's it?

thanks

Bob

Most people train at different HR zones in the three disciplines. This is due to several
factors such as fitness, body position, involvement of larger/smaller muscle groups etc.
This however is not based on a true Max HR. True Max HR is the rate at which ones heart can
no longer beat any faster. Many/Most physiology books dictate this point via a rather severe
treadmill test. Frankly I suspect that TRUE max HR is significantly beyond that point. I
also think that point is nearly impossible to pin down without some sort of destructive
testing, which would not be so good when dealing with ones heart. I believe this is
partially the reason that many of the current methods for training are based around Lactate
turning point rather than max HR.

~Matt

I'd say (and incur the wrath of others) that despite the fact that they are different, for a newbie
it's not such a big deal until so/he is more interested in fine-tuning performance.

Is that sacrilege?

Tom

"Bob Creasote" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Does one have a different Max heart Rate for cycling, running and Swimming or is there an absolute
max rate that the heart can beat at and that's it?

thanks

Bob

Tom G said:

I'd say (and incur the wrath of others) that despite the fact that they are different, for a newbie
it's not such a big deal until so/he is more interested in fine-tuning performance.

Is that sacrilege?

Tom

Breaking out the cross.... Why yes it is! Repent now.

In my experinace finding and workout out in ones proper HR zones is helpfull for most but
particularly for the newbies. I've seen alot of people who are starting a new sport that
have no idea how hard or easy they are running, biking or swimming. Alot of people I see run
too hard too often and bike to easy to often. It's fairly easy to do as running even at a
slow pace for a beginneer is taxing adn it's easy to shoot the old HR way high. OTOH
biking/Bikers tend to be a bit more relaxed, particularly in a "social" group. Spin, spin,
rest rest, spin spin, talk talk, makes for a very low HR. Of course someone who is fairly
intuned with their bodies will be able to tell roughly were LT is at without a HR monitor.
However alot of beginners have not learned that skill yet. Another aspect of this the
difference between the HR in various people. We have alot of good runners that are
converting over to tri's. They have very little experiance with HR on the bike or swim.
Basing their biking HR on their running HR could be very detrimental as their running HR
coudl be very high VS their biking HR. When I first started biking my running LT was
appoximately 23 bpm from my running LT. Although that changed pretty rapidly had I started
out using the old 10 beats less than your running rule of thumb I would have been way off.
Just my experiances.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

"Bob Creasote" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Does one have a different Max heart Rate for cycling, running and Swimming or is there an
absolute max rate that the heart can beat at and that's it?

thanks

Bob

If you train well enough, the HRmax in cycling and running will probably get pretty close. I have
not seen swimmers come all that close to the same HRmax they get when running, but the swimming data
I have is not all that deep.

If someone has just starting cycling, I would bet that they stop at a lower HR than they would
if they ran.

If someone has been cycling and starts to run, I would bet the HRmax will be pretty close.

"Tom G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd say (and incur the wrath of others) that despite the fact that they

are

Quoted message said:

different, for a newbie it's not such a big deal until so/he is more interested in fine-tuning
performance.

Is that sacrilege?

Tom

"Bob Creasote" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Does one have a different Max heart Rate for cycling, running and

Swimming

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or is there an absolute max rate that the heart can beat at and that's

it?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thanks

Bob

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Creasote said:

Hi,

Does one have a different Max heart Rate for cycling, running and

Swimming

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or is there an absolute max rate that the heart can beat at and that's

it?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thanks

Bob

Most people train at different HR zones in the three disciplines. This is due to several factors
such as fitness, body position, involvement of larger/smaller muscle groups etc. This however is
not based on a true Max HR. True Max HR is the rate at which ones heart can no longer beat any
faster. Many/Most physiology books dictate this point via a rather severe treadmill test. Frankly
I suspect that TRUE max HR is significantly beyond that point. I also think that point is nearly
impossible to pin down without some sort of destructive testing

Destructive testing is not necessary, and in fact a "rather severe" treadmill test will reveal a
person's "true" max HR. This has been demonstrated by studies showing that engaging additonal muscle
(via arm cranking) while running uphill on a treadmill at max HR does not result in any further
increase. Unless very well-trained in cycling or swimming, however, most individuals will not be
able to drive their HR all the way to maximum in these other sports - hence, the HR measured under
these conditions is better termed HR peak.

Andy Coggan

Andy Coggan said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Creasote said:

Hi,

Does one have a different Max heart Rate for cycling, running and

Swimming

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or is there an absolute max rate that the heart can beat at and that's

it?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thanks

Bob

Most people train at different HR zones in the three disciplines. This is due to several factors
such as fitness, body position, involvement of larger/smaller muscle groups etc. This however is
not based on a true Max HR. True Max HR is the rate at which ones heart can no longer beat any
faster. Many/Most physiology books dictate this point via a rather severe treadmill test. Frankly
I suspect that TRUE max HR is significantly beyond that point. I also think that point is nearly
impossible to pin down without some sort of destructive testing

Destructive testing is not necessary, and in fact a "rather severe" treadmill test will reveal a
person's "true" max HR. This has been demonstrated by studies showing that engaging additonal
muscle (via arm cranking) while running uphill on a treadmill at max HR does not result in any
further increase.

I don't doubt that for most practical purposes this is true. I do doubt that it is
impossible to raise ones HR beyond a MaxHR treadmill test. It seems to me, of course purely
speculatory, that certain input, either chemical or physical would allow ones heart to beat
faster. The thing that comes to mind would be to scare the [censored] out of someone while they
are at a previous known MaxHR. The other "theory" that would seem to logically oppose the
idea that a true maxHR is achieved during any physical activity is the ideology of a
protected system. Seems to me that the body would have limiters in place to keep the heart
from reaching a true max just as the skelatal muscles have limiters to keep them from
overstraining. Particularly on a system that does not have a backup and is mission critical.
I've read several physiology books that state that MaxHR is achieved via "X" text. I'm sure
within reason this is probably true and for all practical purposes usefull. As you state
below I'm not wondering if a better term for all physcial activities wouldn't be HR peak. It
would be interesting to do a study on a heart(s) and see what maximum HR could be reach out
of body via mechanical means. Of course non of the above is scientific by any means merely
speculation on my part. It could very well be that the heart is a system that can repeatably
be brought to nearly 100% capacity without ill effect. I guess I'm just used to those
2.5-5.0 safety factors.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Unless very well-trained in cycling or swimming, however, most individuals will not be able to
drive their HR all the way to maximum in these other sports - hence, the HR measured under these
conditions is better termed HR peak.

Andy Coggan

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andy Coggan said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:47:02 +0200, "Bob Creasote" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Does one have a different Max heart Rate for cycling, running and

Swimming

Quoted message said:

>or is there an absolute max rate that the heart can beat at and that's

it?

Quoted message said:

>
>thanks
>
>Bob
>
Most people train at different HR zones in the three disciplines. This is due to several
factors such as fitness, body position, involvement of larger/smaller muscle groups etc. This
however is not based on a true Max HR. True Max HR is the rate at which ones heart can no
longer beat any faster. Many/Most physiology books dictate this point via a rather severe
treadmill test. Frankly I suspect that TRUE max HR is significantly beyond that point. I also
think that point is nearly impossible to pin down without some sort of destructive testing

Destructive testing is not necessary, and in fact a "rather severe" treadmill test will reveal a
person's "true" max HR. This has been demonstrated by studies showing that engaging additonal
muscle (via arm cranking) while running uphill on a treadmill at max HR does not result

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

any further increase.

I don't doubt that for most practical purposes this is true. I do doubt that it is impossible to
raise ones HR beyond a MaxHR treadmill test. It seems to me, of course purely speculatory, that
certain input, either chemical or physical would allow ones heart to beat faster. The thing that
comes to mind would be to scare the [censored] out of someone while they are at a previous known MaxHR.
The other "theory" that would seem to logically oppose the idea that a true maxHR is achieved
during any physical activity is the ideology of a protected system. Seems to me that the body
would have limiters in place to keep the heart from reaching a true max just as the skelatal
muscles have limiters to keep them from overstraining. Particularly on a system that does not have
a backup and is mission critical. I've read several physiology books that state that MaxHR is
achieved via "X" text. I'm sure within reason this is probably true and for all practical purposes
usefull. As you state below I'm not wondering if a better term for all physcial activities
wouldn't be HR peak. It would be interesting to do a study on a heart(s) and see what maximum HR
could be reach out of body via mechanical means. Of course non of the above is scientific by any
means merely speculation on my part. It could very well be that the heart is a system that can
repeatably be brought to nearly 100% capacity without ill effect.

In a healthy person, it is.

Andy Coggan

Although max HR has a lot of genetics builtin as well as cardiorespiratory efficency It is harder to
reach Max HR in swimming, because the accumulation of lactate and the lack of gravity. Hence it is
usually 80% of expected. Similar problem with cycling. Ken Burres MD FitCentric

"Bob Creasote" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Does one have a different Max heart Rate for cycling, running and Swimming or is there an absolute
max rate that the heart can beat at and that's it?

thanks

Bob

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