Campy/Shimano rear derailleur spring differences?

Phil said:

Why do Campy rear derailleurs have such a more direct, stronger, more
effective return spring that overcomes cable friction far better than
Shimano rear derailleurs?

Troll.

<eg>

Phil said:

Why do Campy rear derailleurs have such a more direct, stronger, more
effective return spring that overcomes cable friction far better than
Shimano rear derailleurs? Is it to overcome cable/housing friction from the
housing wrapped under the bartape? Shimano's springs are always so weak in
comparison with that big, high-turn-number accordion spring. It makes
upshifting slow and unresponsive as it ages.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Well, shimano prides itself on soft, low effort shifting and it has
been said the best a shimano STI will work is the first day.
Campagnolo, by comparison, use stronger springs and even with the
'watch' spring in the lever to make the shift 'softer', still is
clunkier than shimano.

I think it's just a difference in philosophy, kinda like BMW m/c
transmissions which last forever but are always clunky, particulalry
when going into first gear.

A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who are
running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing your
$50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.

If you do run decent cables, Shimano's shifting is quicker and easier.
It is a philosophy difference: better but needs more maintenance, or
not quite as good but more consistent with poor maintenance. Your
choice.

A lot of the perceived difference in BMW transmissions is because of
the dry clutch. Ducati transmissions have some of the same quirks. It
is true that the BMW gears and dogs themselves are heavier than most
other manufacturers - so they are harder to move, but last longer. Very
much like Campagnolo.

"sunderland" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who are
running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing your
$50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.

If you do run decent cables, Shimano's shifting is quicker and easier.

Shimano doesn't shift quicker or better. Maybe easier for some but not
quicker.

Lou

An apprentice cephalopod said:

Why do Campy rear derailleurs have such a more direct, stronger, more
effective return spring that overcomes cable friction far better than
Shimano rear derailleurs? Is it to overcome cable/housing friction from the
housing wrapped under the bartape? Shimano's springs are always so weak in
comparison with that big, high-turn-number accordion spring. It makes
upshifting slow and unresponsive as it ages.

Shimano has always placed a premium on providing a "light action" to
their controls.

More recent Campagnolo Ergos also provide this by using a counter-spring
in the brifter (a concept copied from older Shimano bar-end shifters.)

There is also a theory that Shimano deliberately softened the springs in
their derailers in the early '90s in an attempt to make them less
compatible with SRAM GripShifters.

Sheldon "Conspiracy?" Brown
+-----------------------------------------+
| When I cannot sing my heart, |
| I can only speak my mind... |
| --John Lennon |
+-----------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

An apprentice cephalopod said:

Why do Campy rear derailleurs have such a more direct, stronger, more
effective return spring that overcomes cable friction far better than
Shimano rear derailleurs? Is it to overcome cable/housing friction
from the housing wrapped under the bartape? Shimano's springs are
always so weak in comparison with that big, high-turn-number accordion
spring. It makes upshifting slow and unresponsive as it ages.

Shimano has always placed a premium on providing a "light action" to
their controls.

Interesting. I had always thought that "light action" referred to the
shift *levers*, not the derailleurs - IIRC, first (modern) generation
Shimano indexing levers were very stiff and loud (yes, LOUD); I thought
the "light action" idea was to soften the clicks in the indexing. Was I
completely wrong?

Mark

Mark Janeba said:

Sheldon Brown said:

An apprentice cephalopod said:

Why do Campy rear derailleurs have such a more direct, stronger, more
effective return spring that overcomes cable friction far better than
Shimano rear derailleurs? Is it to overcome cable/housing friction
from the housing wrapped under the bartape? Shimano's springs are
always so weak in comparison with that big, high-turn-number accordion
spring. It makes upshifting slow and unresponsive as it ages.

Shimano has always placed a premium on providing a "light action" to
their controls.

Interesting. I had always thought that "light action" referred to the
shift *levers*, not the derailleurs - IIRC, first (modern) generation
Shimano indexing levers were very stiff and loud (yes, LOUD); I thought
the "light action" idea was to soften the clicks in the indexing. Was I
completely wrong?

My experience with the older Shimano stuff would support the "easier
via less spring tension" hypothesis. Many older midrange and low-end
bikes I've seen with the traditional friction shifters would simply
not say put unless the shifter friction setting was rather high. And
with gripshifts it was worse, if anything; the amount of force needed
to shift the stiff-spring units against the combination of cable drag,
gripshift friction and detents, and spring tension was enough to make
me swear off ever having another gripshift...despite the fact that the
more modern setups are significantly less egregious. (I still don't
use them on my own bikes, though.)
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Lou Holtman said:

"sunderland" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who
are running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing
your $50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.

If you do run decent cables, Shimano's shifting is quicker and
easier.

Shimano doesn't shift quicker or better. Maybe easier for some but not
quicker.

Most definitely not quicker. I got used to pedaling a 1/8th turn of the
cranks before the chain would engage the smaller cogs in the back with my
old Shimano DT shifting. With my Campy Centaur derailleur, the upshifting
is so fast that I don't release pressure on the pedals early enough and
accidentally clunk into it because it shifts before I'm used to it shifting.
It just feels like the derailleur is tightly wound and has more spring
tension in both the parallelogram and the derailleur cage. I don't think
it's more *accurate* however. And the shifter feel is pretty poor in Campy
shifters, whereas Shimano's 10-speed shifters (not the derailleurs) are so
smooth and fluid... it's a pleasure to shift. The hood shape on the S10
shifters is narrow and painful, though.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Lou Holtman said:

"sunderland" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who
are running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing
your $50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.

If you do run decent cables, Shimano's shifting is quicker and
easier.

Shimano doesn't shift quicker or better. Maybe easier for some but not
quicker.

Most definitely not quicker. I got used to pedaling a 1/8th turn of the
cranks before the chain would engage the smaller cogs in the back with my
old Shimano DT shifting. With my Campy Centaur derailleur, the upshifting
is so fast that I don't release pressure on the pedals early enough and
accidentally clunk into it because it shifts before I'm used to it shifting.
It just feels like the derailleur is tightly wound and has more spring
tension in both the parallelogram and the derailleur cage. I don't think
it's more *accurate* however. And the shifter feel is pretty poor in Campy
shifters, whereas Shimano's 10-speed shifters (not the derailleurs) are so
smooth and fluid... it's a pleasure to shift. The hood shape on the S10
shifters is narrow and painful, though.

I like the shifter feel of Campy, so once again it comes down to
personal preference. More or less accurate? Click = shift, with Campy
and with Shimano, so again personal preference. There are situations
where Campy shift faster, but not more accurate in the sense of click =
shift.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

Lou Holtman said:

Phil said:

Lou Holtman said:

"sunderland" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

> A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who
> are running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not
> replacing your $50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.
>
> If you do run decent cables, Shimano's shifting is quicker and
> easier.

Shimano doesn't shift quicker or better. Maybe easier for some but
not quicker.

Most definitely not quicker. I got used to pedaling a 1/8th turn of
the cranks before the chain would engage the smaller cogs in the
back with my old Shimano DT shifting. With my Campy Centaur
derailleur, the upshifting is so fast that I don't release pressure
on the pedals early enough and accidentally clunk into it because it
shifts before I'm used to it shifting. It just feels like the
derailleur is tightly wound and has more spring tension in both the
parallelogram and the derailleur cage. I don't think it's more
*accurate* however. And the shifter feel is pretty poor in Campy
shifters, whereas Shimano's 10-speed shifters (not the derailleurs)
are so smooth and fluid... it's a pleasure to shift. The hood shape
on the S10 shifters is narrow and painful, though.

I like the shifter feel of Campy, so once again it comes down to
personal preference. More or less accurate? Click = shift, with Campy
and with Shimano, so again personal preference. There are situations
where Campy shift faster, but not more accurate in the sense of click
= shift.

For me it's easier to over-downshift with the lever on Campy. Click =
doubleshift then quickly back up one gear. I probably just don't have the
finesse with it, but I haven't ridden it all semester due to school.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who are
running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing your
$50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.

$50 cables? Seems damn expensive. I can get the stuff for $1/foot at my
LBS which is not exactly known for selling stuff cheap.
-------------
Alex

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

A lot of the complaints about Shimano shifting come from people who are
running 3-year-old cables. Having a $5000 bike and not replacing your
$50 cables regularly seems like a waste to me.

Alex Rodriguez said:

$50 cables? Seems damn expensive. I can get the stuff for $1/foot at my
LBS which is not exactly known for selling stuff cheap.

Yes some casing is $1/foot.

Shimano brand gear casing costs your dealer close to that.
Complete brake/gear sets with all the little bits range $25
to $50

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Alex Rodriguez said:

$50 cables? Seems damn expensive. I can get the stuff for $1/foot at my
LBS which is not exactly known for selling stuff cheap.

Yes some casing is $1/foot.

Shimano brand gear casing costs your dealer close to that.
Complete brake/gear sets with all the little bits range $25
to $50

My LBS charges $1.99/ft for the cheap black no name stuff. $1/ft What a
deal!
Bought 3ft of brake and shifter cable last week - $12.73!!!!

-Nate