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UK and Europe
Published
18 December 2005
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19 December 2005
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Peter B
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  1. I thought I'd post a report of my ride yesterday on the "classic" Ladybower
    off-road route in Derbyshire. I'll keep it brief as although very pleasant
    it was uneventful and I'm mindful of Michael Palins cycling sketch so will
    try to avoid details of sandwich eating and so on....
    As is normal at this time of year cabin fever is a risk so on Friday eve I
    decided to prepare my kit with an early start planned for the morning, my
    usual riding pals were busy hanging baubles on trees or somesuch so it was
    to be a solo affair, an upside of this being simpler logistics.
    I parked up opposite the angling centre by Ladybower Reservoir at 08:15 just
    as it became light enough to start off without lights and set off in -3c
    clear conditions trailing a long shadow, already the sky was turning blue
    with nary a cloud in sight.
    http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=418500&Y=387500&A=Y&Z=5
    Over the Ladybower dam and a short off-road drop to a disused railway
    track then a bit of road climbing through Thornhill & Aston to pick up the
    Roman road running northward, the last time we did the initial off-road
    climb in the Autumn much walking was needed as the mud caused traction loss
    but, ho-ho, the ground was nicely frozen creating the kind of surface
    normally found after a dry spell in summer.
    On my right the plantations and to the left beautiful views over the Hope
    valley toward Mam. The excellent trail conditions made for an easy climb
    before the rocky descent down to the A57, this being taken more cautiously
    than usual being on my own. Some extra caution was needed anyway as in
    several places the flat stones that create a rough stair effect of drop-offs
    were ice-covered adding a new dimension.
    Caution or not on some part of the descent I bent my outer ring which was
    realigned by use of body weight and foot, a better attempt will be made
    today (or replacement) but the outer ring was not essential to the ride!
    This first section was devoid of all other people, normally you'd expect to
    meet quite a few ramblers, mountainbikers, horsey folks and unfortunately
    the odd trail (motor)bike, almost eerie.
    A suicidal leap across the A57 then a hard tarmac climb on the hairpins
    past Rowlee Farm to Lockerbrok Farm before another exhilerating descent to
    Derwent Reservoir. A short ride along some of the perimeter track, cross the
    reservoirs just below Derwent Dam (of "Dambusters" fame) following the north
    shore southward then a climb up onto Derwent Moor and hey-ho walkers &
    other mountainbikers, more like a normal weekend morning!
    The climb involves a small amount of walking on some of the more raggedy
    sections but at the top its worth stopping for a few minutes to look back at
    the fantasic view of the reservoir a long way down in the valley, cast your
    eyes upward to the top of the plantations and reflect on the climbing
    descending done so far and know it's now downhill nearly all the way back to
    the car.
    The moor was bathed in sunshine and most of the more boggy sections were
    frozen and although rutted generally making for an easy ride with the gentle
    downward gradient, this really couldn't be bettered in mid-summer.
    There are several boggy bits which bury an unwary riders front wheel
    launching them over the bars (first hand experience!), I was treating them
    with respect and just as I was feeling smug that I'd ridden another
    successfully dropped my guard, picked the wrong line and hey presto! over
    the bars!
    All too soon I was back at the car, on the one hand feeling fresh enough to
    carry on, on the other having the sensation that I was quitting while ahead.
    And so home for lunch, the upside of a solo ride being simpler logistics, no
    sitting around drinking tea at rides end and no stopping at the pub on the
    way home, the downside of solo riding being no back-up, no-one to drink tea
    with and no-one to have a pint with ;-)

    And right now the sun's shining again so it's out of this chair and a short
    road ride on the local lanes :-)

    --
    Pete
    http:[email hidden]/Stuff

  2. Peter B came up with the following;:

    Quoted message said:

    This first section was devoid of all other people, normally you'd expect
    to meet quite a few ramblers, mountainbikers, horsey folks and
    unfortunately the odd trail (motor)bike

    Why unfortunately for trail bikes ?

    If the trail is legal for them to ride, what's so different about them and
    you?

    --
    Paul ...
    (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
    ebay 8023391484

  3. "Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Peter B came up with the following;:

    Quoted message said:

    This first section was devoid of all other people, normally you'd expect
    to meet quite a few ramblers, mountainbikers, horsey folks and
    unfortunately the odd trail (motor)bike

    Why unfortunately for trail bikes ?

    If the trail is legal for them to ride, what's so different about them and
    you?

    They're noisy and they tear the ground up?

    Mastiles lane and Long lane (Clapham to Sulber Nick) have had motor vehicles
    banned on them for over a year now. It's really noticable how much better
    the ground is looking. And yes, the damage is primarily from motorbikes, not
    4wds.

    Of course that doesn't stop [censored] ignoring the TROs. The tearing up of long
    lane I saw yesterday by what looked to be about 4 motorbikes was pretty
    obvious - in one pass they made more mess than walkers + MTB riders had done
    in several weeks.

    I should by now be used to the damage they cause. But every time I come
    across another soft patch with the inevitable fan of motorbike-cut
    striations I get reminded of why I dislike them quite as much as I do.

    cheers,
    clive

  4. "Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Peter B came up with the following;:

    Quoted message said:

    This first section was devoid of all other people, normally you'd expect
    to meet quite a few ramblers, mountainbikers, horsey folks and
    unfortunately the odd trail (motor)bike

    Why unfortunately for trail bikes ?

    If the trail is legal for them to ride, what's so different about them and
    you?

    Noise.
    --
    Pete
    http:[email hidden]/Stuff

  5. Clive George came up with the following;:

    Quoted message said:

    "Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Peter B came up with the following;:

    Quoted message said:

    This first section was devoid of all other people, normally you'd expect
    to meet quite a few ramblers, mountainbikers, horsey folks and
    unfortunately the odd trail (motor)bike

    Why unfortunately for trail bikes ?

    If the trail is legal for them to ride, what's so different about them
    and you?

    They're noisy and they tear the ground up?

    Not if they're riding to TRF [1] rules.

    Admittedly it does seem that many trail riders do cut the ground up a lot
    more than they should or need to, unfortunately. It tends to give those of
    us who act responsibly the same bad name.

    Quoted message said:

    Mastiles lane and Long lane (Clapham to Sulber Nick) have had motor
    vehicles banned on them for over a year now. It's really noticable how
    much better the ground is looking. And yes, the damage is primarily from
    motorbikes, not 4wds.

    I agree. Trouble is, many trail riders ride with motocross tyres on
    (illegally I might add) rather than the more 'friendly' but less grippy
    block treaded road/trail tyres. Motocross tyres are made to cut into the
    ground to gain traction on race tracks and are eminently unsuitable for
    trails. I cannot condone this and have had many arguments with 'fellow'
    trail riders about this very subject.

    Quoted message said:

    Of course that doesn't stop [censored] ignoring the TROs. The tearing up of
    long lane I saw yesterday by what looked to be about 4 motorbikes was
    pretty obvious - in one pass they made more mess than walkers + MTB
    riders had done in several weeks.

    See above reply ...

    [1] http://www.trf.org.uk/

    --
    Paul ...
    (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
    ebay 8023391484

  6. Peter B came up with the following;:

    Quoted message said:

    "Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Peter B came up with the following;:

    Quoted message said:

    This first section was devoid of all other people, normally you'd expect
    to meet quite a few ramblers, mountainbikers, horsey folks and
    unfortunately the odd trail (motor)bike

    Why unfortunately for trail bikes ?

    If the trail is legal for them to ride, what's so different about them
    and you?

    Noise.

    Trail bikes that are legal will still be noisier than bicycle or walking,
    but only within approved and legislated guidelines. I suggest if they're
    too loud then you might have a case to complain about.

    If all trail riders adopted the TRF [1] guidelines and stuck to them, then
    we'd have a much better chance of being able to ride trails with less hassle
    than we currently get.

    [1] http://www.trf.org.uk/

    --
    Paul ...
    (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
    ebay 8023391484

  7. "Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Trail bikes that are legal will still be noisier than bicycle or walking,
    but only within approved and legislated guidelines. I suggest if they're
    too loud then you might have a case to complain about.

    I was never questioning the legality of what they're doing and in my book
    it's a bit off to criticsise anothers activity simply because it's not your
    own cup of tea (but being human I do have prejudices :-).
    The trail riders I've encountered in that area seem a responsible & sociable
    enough crowd but there's no getting away from the fact that the Roman road
    in question runs along a highish exposed ridge with Hope Valley below and
    the sound can't help but carry. As it is the riders are few in number and
    naturally transient so any nuisance value is small, in the unlikely event
    their numbers increase to those of mtbers & ramblers then I could see a real
    problem.
    --
    Pete
    http:[email hidden]/Stuff

  8. in message <[email hidden]>, Paul - [censored]

    (') said:

    Peter B came up with the following;:

    Quoted message said:

    This first section was devoid of all other people, normally you'd
    expect to meet quite a few ramblers, mountainbikers, horsey folks and
    unfortunately the odd trail (motor)bike

    Why unfortunately for trail bikes ?

    If the trail is legal for them to ride, what's so different about them
    and you?

    They make a horrible bloody racket, disturb everything for miles around,
    and rip the paths to shreds.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; Human history becomes more and more a race between
    ;; education and catastrophe.
    H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"

  9. in message <[email hidden]>, Paul - [censored]

    (') said:

    Peter B came up with the following;:

    Quoted message said:

    "Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    If the trail is legal for them to ride, what's so different about
    them and you?

    Noise.

    Trail bikes that are legal will still be noisier than bicycle or
    walking,
    but only within approved and legislated guidelines. I suggest if
    they're too loud then you might have a case to complain about.

    I really don't care whether they're legal or not. The sound of one more
    engine (however noisy) on the North Circular Road doesn't really make
    much difference to anyone, but the sound of just one engine (however
    quiet) when you're up some glen fifteen miles from the nearest metalled
    road is a huge disturbance of the peace. Anything that makes that level
    of noise is really out of place in the few remaining peaceful parts of
    this island; but a trail bike is by definition a motor vehicle designed
    to go precisely where motor vehicles are most disturbing, anti-social
    and inappropriate.

    On a mountain bike, you can get close enough to wild deer to touch them
    if they don't see you or smell you first (guess how I know this). On a
    trail bike, they'll have heard you five miles away.

    Fortunately the land reform act agrees with me.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    ; ... of course nothing said here will be taken notice of by
    ; the W3C. The official place to be ignored is on www-style or
    ; www-html. -- George Lund

  10. Simon Brooke said:


    I really don't care whether they're legal or not. The sound of one more
    engine (however noisy) on the North Circular Road doesn't really make
    much difference to anyone, but the sound of just one engine (however
    quiet) when you're up some glen fifteen miles from the nearest metalled
    road is a huge disturbance of the peace. Anything that makes that level
    of noise is really out of place in the few remaining peaceful parts of
    this island; but a trail bike is by definition a motor vehicle designed
    to go precisely where motor vehicles are most disturbing, anti-social
    and inappropriate.

    On a mountain bike, you can get close enough to wild deer to touch them
    if they don't see you or smell you first (guess how I know this). On a
    trail bike, they'll have heard you five miles away.

    Dangerous ground. If they are legal then they should be able to enjoy
    their legal rights. Lots of ramblers think that bicycles shouldn't be
    on off-road rights of way. Its hard to argue with ramblers that we
    should keep our legal rights while turning round and attempting to deny
    them to others.

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

  11. in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

    (') said:
    Simon Brooke said:


    I really don't care whether they're legal or not. The sound of one
    more engine (however noisy) on the North Circular Road doesn't really
    make much difference to anyone, but the sound of just one engine
    (however quiet) when you're up some glen fifteen miles from the
    nearest metalled road is a huge disturbance of the peace. Anything
    that makes that level of noise is really out of place in the few
    remaining peaceful parts of this island; but a trail bike is by
    definition a motor vehicle designed to go precisely where motor
    vehicles are most disturbing, anti-social and inappropriate.

    On a mountain bike, you can get close enough to wild deer to touch
    them if they don't see you or smell you first (guess how I know this).
    On a trail bike, they'll have heard you five miles away.

    Dangerous ground. If they are legal then they should be able to enjoy
    their legal rights. Lots of ramblers think that bicycles shouldn't be
    on off-road rights of way. Its hard to argue with ramblers that we
    should keep our legal rights while turning round and attempting to deny
    them to others.

    Well, as I said, fortunately, in the civilised parts of the world, the
    legislators are on our side. But seriously, it is appropriate that one's
    rights to do things should be moderated and modulated by their impacts
    on others ability to enjoy their lives. In the general scheme of things,
    pedal cycles are extremely unobtrusive and near silent. Motor cycles are
    not. When was the last time you were somewhere where you could not hear
    an internal combustion engine?

    The place for motor sport is in busy places already polluted by noise.

    Note that if you could produce a trail bike which was as quiet in use as
    a pedal cycle (and also low enough weight and low enough horsepower not
    to tip paths up too badly), I would withdraw my objection entirely. I'm
    not objecting to people having fun or enjoying wilderness, just
    objecting to people destroying the peace of the wilderness for everyone
    else.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    Ring of great evil
    Small one casts it into flame
    Bringing rise of Men ;; gonzoron

  12. Simon Brooke said:


    Well, as I said, fortunately, in the civilised parts of the world, the
    legislators are on our side. But seriously, it is appropriate that one's
    rights to do things should be moderated and modulated by their impacts
    on others ability to enjoy their lives. In the general scheme of things,
    pedal cycles are extremely unobtrusive and near silent. Motor cycles are
    not. When was the last time you were somewhere where you could not hear
    an internal combustion engine?

    That's the problem though - the "impact" is in the eye of the beholder.
    Many ramblers think bikes are inappropriate, go too fast and are a
    menace that should be banned from RoWs. You think trail bikes are a
    noisy menace and should be banned. While I am no fan of motorised
    vehicles off-road it is a legitimate activity which has legal access to
    only 1.5% of the RoW network in England and Wales. I am happy to
    concede that 1.5%, responsibly used, in order to be able to defend my
    use of RoWs on a bicycle.

    A large proportion of off-road motorised traffic is farm vehicles anyway
    and I've more often met farm tractors, landrovers and quad bikes than I
    have trail bikes, in part because they are not restricted on rights of
    way on their own land.

    Quoted message said:

    The place for motor sport is in busy places already polluted by noise.

    And many others would say the place for bicycles is on the roads, not on
    RoW where walkers want to enjoy the paths without having to worry about
    high speed cyclists bearing down on them. Its not a position I agree
    with either.

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

  13. in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

    (') said:

    While I am no fan of motorised
    vehicles off-road it is a legitimate activity which has legal access to
    only 1.5% of the RoW network in England and Wales. I am happy to
    concede that 1.5%, responsibly used, in order to be able to defend my
    use of RoWs on a bicycle.

    While, not being in England, this isn't really my problem, if trail bikes
    were limited to 1.5% of the paths I wouldn't be objecting.

    Quoted message said:

    A large proportion of off-road motorised traffic is farm vehicles
    anyway and I've more often met farm tractors, landrovers and quad bikes
    than I have trail bikes, in part because they are not restricted on
    rights of way on their own land.

    Yes, but have you ever heard a trail bike as quiet in absolute decibel
    terms as the noisiest farm machine? Because I never have. Only chainsaws
    come close to trail bikes in terms of sheer row. We had 'mobile
    marshalls' on trail bikes at the last mountain bike race I marshalled,
    and you could hear the scream of engines the whole time, even when they
    were two valleys away. Unbelievable racket.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The place for motor sport is in busy places already polluted by noise.

    And many others would say the place for bicycles is on the roads,

    But fortunately, in civilised countries bicycles have the right to go
    anywhere, whether there's a road, a footpath, or no path at all; and
    motor vehicles, thank God and our legislators, do not.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    -- mens vacua in medio vacuo --

  14. The fact of the matter is that non-motorised users of trails may
    grumble about each other- walkers, MTB'ers, horse riders, bird
    watchers, etc - but the majority are prepared to put up with each
    other. What they are not prepared to put up with is motorised leisure
    use disturbing the peace of the countryside and destroying the trails,
    when our cities are already full of the sound of motors, and areas like
    the Peak District are under pressure from all sides. You'd have to be
    bonkers to put legitimate farm use of vehicles in the same class.
    Fortunately, as Simon says above, it's one thing that the govt is
    addressing.

    Incidentally, Peter B. I'm glad you enjoyed your ride. You can do the
    same thing car-free by taking the Hope Valley local train to Bamford
    and heading up the bridleway, which is the old railway line to the dams
    - turn right out of the station and take the lane about 50 yds along
    on the left.

    Simon G.

  15. Simon Brooke said:


    Yes, but have you ever heard a trail bike as quiet in absolute decibel
    terms as the noisiest farm machine? Because I never have. Only chainsaws
    come close to trail bikes in terms of sheer row. We had 'mobile
    marshalls' on trail bikes at the last mountain bike race I marshalled,
    and you could hear the scream of engines the whole time, even when they
    were two valleys away. Unbelievable racket.

    Which is an argument for noise abatement not banishment from the
    permitted trails. Still beaten hands down in the noise stakes by a
    Tornado on low level manoeuvres

    Quoted message said:


    But fortunately, in civilised countries bicycles have the right to go
    anywhere, whether there's a road, a footpath, or no path at all; and
    motor vehicles, thank God and our legislators, do not.

    Unless driven by the landowners

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

  16. Tony Raven said:
    Simon Brooke said:


    Yes, but have you ever heard a trail bike as quiet in absolute decibel
    terms as the noisiest farm machine? Because I never have. Only chainsaws
    come close to trail bikes in terms of sheer row. We had 'mobile
    marshalls' on trail bikes at the last mountain bike race I marshalled,
    and you could hear the scream of engines the whole time, even when they
    were two valleys away. Unbelievable racket.

    Which is an argument for noise abatement not banishment from the
    permitted trails. Still beaten hands down in the noise stakes by a
    Tornado on low level manoeuvres

    Peak noise, yes. Overall impact to an individual area is loud but
    fleeting. Hearing the harsh noise of an illegally (un)muffled 2-stroke
    accompanying you from 5 miles away up the glen is no way less intrusive
    than a brief flypast from a hawk or tornado.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    But fortunately, in civilised countries bicycles have the right to go
    anywhere, whether there's a road, a footpath, or no path at all; and
    motor vehicles, thank God and our legislators, do not.

    Unless driven by the landowners

    Or with the landowners permission, and even then not necessarily
    (partly depending on the definition of land).

    ...d

  17. in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

    (') said:
    Simon Brooke said:


    Yes, but have you ever heard a trail bike as quiet in absolute decibel
    terms as the noisiest farm machine? Because I never have. Only
    chainsaws come close to trail bikes in terms of sheer row. We had
    'mobile marshalls' on trail bikes at the last mountain bike race I
    marshalled, and you could hear the scream of engines the whole time,
    even when they were two valleys away. Unbelievable racket.

    Which is an argument for noise abatement not banishment from the
    permitted trails. Still beaten hands down in the noise stakes by a
    Tornado on low level manoeuvres

    I'm not going to argue this further. My apologies for boring on for so
    long - pain is making me grumpy.

    BTW, Not Responding (if you're listening), how did you cope while
    recovering from your crash? I don't remember you being a curmudgeon on
    the group.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; Woz: 'All the best people in life seem to like LINUX.'
    ;; <URL:http://www.woz.org/woz/cresponses/response03.html>

  18. Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven
    ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

    I'm not going to argue this further. My apologies for boring on for so
    long - pain is making me grumpy.

    Not boring or grumpy. I'm involved with campaigning for RoW for
    cyclists so I am sensitive to not giving ammunition to others
    campaigning against off-road cycling. Opening up the avenue that other
    legal users should be banned exposes cyclists to the same attack by others.

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

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