Durable road wheels?

Quoted message said:

What's my best solution for durable wheels at $300-400 for pair
(shimano compatible)?

In my 15-years and 120,000 miles on the bike, I have nearly always
built my own wheels. I always start with an Ultegra or Dura-Ace hub,
then pick the best-value Mavic hoops (Open 4-CD, or whatever was
current at the time), and finish with some DT or Wheelsmith 14-15-14
spokes and brass nipples.

Those can be had for <$200 online with Ultegra hubs... much cheaper
than buying the parts. Then a little "tuning" by you... ie stress
relieving and tension adjustment. I like to put lots of marine grease
in the hubs, too.

BTW... using a heavier rim than the Open Pro on the back should help.

Quoted message said:

The problem is that my rear wheels only last about 18 months.

They always fail at a drive-side spoke bend, or if I don't have
eyelets, maybe a drive-side spoke hole.

A broken spoke is no big deal after 18 months (12,000 miles?)... just
replace it. Even with a perfectly built wheel you can have a
"defective" spoke.

I don't know of anybody on boutique wheels who has ridden that many
miles without incident! But... maybe we will hear from some?

Are you and the shop properly destressing the wheels after tensioning
them up? Might help those spokes to get properly seated. 😉

I'd go for traditional wheels as the previous poster recommended. Throw
a 36 spoker back there if you're not a weight weenie.

Even though I run Mavics yet again, as the sales are too tempting--I've
heard lots of good stuff about other basic rims like Velocity and Sun.
I've even had a set of Alex rims that went years without a
touch-up--even though many grumble about them. Next time I build a set
for bumping around town, it's going to be plain jane Sun silver CR-18s.
Cheaper than dirt. :P

Another thing you might consider is to use one of the offset rims for the
rear. I know Velocity makes them and there may be other manufacturers. If
you're not familiar with them, they have an offset in them that evens out
the spoke lengths while leaving the tire centered, thus offsetting most of
the problems with dishing the wheel (the lower tension on the non-drive
side). If you are actually putting load on both sides of the rear spokes,
that would have to strengthen them a lot.
Lyle
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What's my best solution for durable wheels at $300-400 for pair
(shimano compatible)?

Would I be better off building my own 3-cross bent-spoke wheels, or
buying some of the boutique wheels like entry-level mavic ksyriums or
the like? Or can I find some straight-pull hubs and build up a set of
those? (I can't locate any for sale online).

In my 15-years and 120,000 miles on the bike, I have nearly always
built my own wheels. I always start with an Ultegra or Dura-Ace hub,
then pick the best-value Mavic hoops (Open 4-CD, or whatever was
current at the time), and finish with some DT or Wheelsmith 14-15-14
spokes and brass nipples.

The problem is that my rear wheels only last about 18 months. I weigh
185 lbs. and do A LOT of hill repeats and sprint workouts in Austin.
This means vigorously climbing hills that max out at 26% (the steep
parts of Ladera Norte), and average between 10% and 14% for 300 feet of
elevation. I'm not the most powerful or fastest rider around, but I am
very tough on rear wheels.

They always fail at a drive-side spoke bend, or if I don't have
eyelets, maybe a drive-side spoke hole.

My front wheels last about 5 years before a spoke breaks at a bend, so
I'm just worried about the rear.

I'm proabably just a mediocre wheelbuilder. I don't use a tensiometer,
but pluck and listen for consistent tone instead. I maintain them
reasonably well, but only mess with them when I hear, see, or feel a
problem -- I'm lazy in this respect. I use three-cross both sides,
front and back (Shimano says radial is a no-no, and I couldn't care
less about the grams).

Nevertheless, the shop-built wheels I've ridden don't last any longer
than my own, so I'm not a bad builder.

So, I was thinking that straight-pull might be the way to go, but I
understand that they often just fail at the spoke head. It seems like
mavic ksyriums last people a really long time, but I don't know anyone
who rides the same gear as long as I do. I'm on only my 2nd road bike,
for instance, expecting to get 10 years out of a frame.

Any recommendations?

Thanks for reading all this,
Mike

Mike said:

I have nearly always built my own wheels. I always start with an Ultegra or Dura-Ace hub, then pick the best-value Mavic hoops (Open 4-CD, or whatever was current at the time), and finish with some DT or Wheelsmith 14-15-14 spokes and brass nipples.

Quoted message said:

The problem is that my rear wheels only last about 18 months. I weigh 185 lbs. and do A LOT of hill repeats and sprint workouts in Austin.

How many spokes in these wheels? If less than 36, consider upgrading to
36. When you say the wheels only last 18 months, do you mean they are
not repairable? Please elaborate.

You say the spokes break at the DS spoke bend.

Three suggestions:

1) Make sure you don't have the long elbow DT spokes that were around a
few years ago.
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm

2) Press the outbound spokes so they lay flat against the hub flange
before tensioning (as described in The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt).

3) Make sure you stress relieve the wheels.

I would certainly stay away from boutique wheels. Convertional handmade
wheels built with skill and good materials should last you a long time.
The quality of "shop built" wheels will depend on the shop.

Art Harris

Art Harris said:

Mike wrote:
How many spokes in these wheels? If less than 36, consider upgrading to
36. When you say the wheels only last 18 months, do you mean they are
not repairable? Please elaborate.

Thanks everyone for the responses. I'm running 32s, I've only ever had
36s on my MTBs. I guess I should bump that up. It seems logical -- I
guess I've always bought pairs of hubs that are 32 each.

Usually I rebuild the wheel after the third spoke break because the
last two usually occur pretty close together. That seems to happen
around 18 months, with the first spoke break around 15 months.

Quoted message said:

You say the spokes break at the DS spoke bend.

Three suggestions:

1) Make sure you don't have the long elbow DT spokes that were around a
few years ago.
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm

Yeah, that's not it. Good info though.

Quoted message said:

2) Press the outbound spokes so they lay flat against the hub flange
before tensioning (as described in The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt).

Yep.

Quoted message said:

3) Make sure you stress relieve the wheels.

Yep.

Quoted message said:

I would certainly stay away from boutique wheels.

That seems to be the concensus in this thread.

Thanks everyone for the responses so far.

Quoted message said:

What's my best solution for durable wheels at $300-400 for pair
(shimano compatible)?

Would I be better off building my own 3-cross bent-spoke wheels, or
buying some of the boutique wheels like entry-level mavic ksyriums or
the like? Or can I find some straight-pull hubs and build up a set of
those? (I can't locate any for sale online).

Straight pull spokes are not going to fix your 'problem', proper
wheelbuilding will.

Invest in a tensionometer and make sure you stress relieve well. Also
do a 36h rear, build well with good components. Since you buiold your
own, ultegra hubs, 14/15 DT spokes, a Velocity Fusion rim...36/3 cross
rear. NO wheel oputta a box will work as well as a well made handbuilt.
Crappy hubs(particularly the rear of Mavic wheels) and more money.

Quoted message said:

In my 15-years and 120,000 miles on the bike, I have nearly always
built my own wheels. I always start with an Ultegra or Dura-Ace hub,
then pick the best-value Mavic hoops (Open 4-CD, or whatever was
current at the time), and finish with some DT or Wheelsmith 14-15-14
spokes and brass nipples.

The problem is that my rear wheels only last about 18 months. I weigh
185 lbs. and do A LOT of hill repeats and sprint workouts in Austin.
This means vigorously climbing hills that max out at 26% (the steep
parts of Ladera Norte), and average between 10% and 14% for 300 feet of
elevation. I'm not the most powerful or fastest rider around, but I am
very tough on rear wheels.

They always fail at a drive-side spoke bend, or if I don't have
eyelets, maybe a drive-side spoke hole.

My front wheels last about 5 years before a spoke breaks at a bend, so
I'm just worried about the rear.

I'm proabably just a mediocre wheelbuilder. I don't use a tensiometer,
but pluck and listen for consistent tone instead. I maintain them
reasonably well, but only mess with them when I hear, see, or feel a
problem -- I'm lazy in this respect. I use three-cross both sides,
front and back (Shimano says radial is a no-no, and I couldn't care
less about the grams).

Nevertheless, the shop-built wheels I've ridden don't last any longer
than my own, so I'm not a bad builder.

So, I was thinking that straight-pull might be the way to go, but I
understand that they often just fail at the spoke head. It seems like
mavic ksyriums last people a really long time, but I don't know anyone
who rides the same gear as long as I do. I'm on only my 2nd road bike,
for instance, expecting to get 10 years out of a frame.

We sell none but do a brisk business manitaining these Ksyriums. Rear
hub, rim, truing maintanance..for $800+, not sure what anybody is
getting.

Quoted message said:

Any recommendations?

Thanks for reading all this,
Mike

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem is that my rear wheels only last about 18 months. I
weigh 185 lbs. and do A LOT of hill repeats and sprint workouts in
Austin. This means vigorously climbing hills that max out at 26%
(the steep parts of Ladera Norte), and average between 10% and 14%
for 300 feet of elevation. I'm not the most powerful or fastest
rider around, but I am very tough on rear wheels.

But perhaps not as tough as someone doing, for example, loaded
touring. Although on those steep hills, your rear wheel is bearing a
lot of weight. I imagine you chew through rear tires pretty quickly
as well.

I'm 210-220 lbs and have broken only one spoke in probably 8-9 years
of riding 6000-7000 mile a year (racing, touring, JRA and brevets),
and that one broke under braking at the start of the threads.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They always fail at a drive-side spoke bend, or if I don't have
eyelets, maybe a drive-side spoke hole.

Sounds like you need to stress-relieve your spokes. Get a copy of
_The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt, which will explain the procedure
and rationale in detail. And of course, read the inevitable
"rebuttal" from jim beam which will be posted shortly, since Jobst's
name is like bacon to a bear for jim.

[quote="Quoted message"][I]do A LOT of hill repeats and sprint workouts in Austin.
This means vigorously climbing hills that max out at 26% (the steep
parts of Ladera Norte), and average between 10% and 14% for 300 feet of
elevation. I'm not the most powerful or fastest rider around, but I am
very tough on rear wheels.[/quote]

Ladera Norte, 26%? Where does this figure come from, please? (I could
start feeling better about life here..)

Quoted message said:

Nevertheless, the shop-built wheels I've ridden don't last any longer
than my own, so I'm not a bad builder.

Mike said:

Usually I rebuild the wheel after the third spoke break because the last two usually occur pretty close together. That seems to happen around 18 months, with the first spoke break around 15 months.

Only a few possible reasons for multiple spoke breakage like that: Bad
batch of spokes, lack of proper stress relieving, or excess/uneven
spoke tension. You want the right side spokes to be just tight enough
so that the left side spokes don't go slack. One trick is to use
lighter gauge spokes on the left (e.g., 15-16-15) so that they will be
less likely to go slack for a given tension.

Art Harris

In article
<[email hidden]>,

maxo said:

Are you and the shop properly destressing the wheels after tensioning
them up? Might help those spokes to get properly seated. 😉

I'd go for traditional wheels as the previous poster recommended. Throw
a 36 spoker back there if you're not a weight weenie.

Even though I run Mavics yet again, as the sales are too tempting--I've
heard lots of good stuff about other basic rims like Velocity and Sun.
I've even had a set of Alex rims that went years without a
touch-up--even though many grumble about them. Next time I build a set
for bumping around town, it's going to be plain jane Sun silver CR-18s.
Cheaper than dirt. :P

And still available in 27 inch! (630)

--
Michael Press

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem is that my rear wheels only last about 18 months. I
weigh 185 lbs. and do A LOT of hill repeats and sprint workouts in
Austin. This means vigorously climbing hills that max out at 26%
(the steep parts of Ladera Norte), and average between 10% and 14%
for 300 feet of elevation. I'm not the most powerful or fastest
rider around, but I am very tough on rear wheels.

But perhaps not as tough as someone doing, for example, loaded
touring. Although on those steep hills, your rear wheel is bearing a
lot of weight. I imagine you chew through rear tires pretty quickly
as well.

I'm 210-220 lbs and have broken only one spoke in probably 8-9 years
of riding 6000-7000 mile a year (racing, touring, JRA and brevets),
and that one broke under braking at the start of the threads.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They always fail at a drive-side spoke bend, or if I don't have
eyelets, maybe a drive-side spoke hole.

Sounds like you need to stress-relieve your spokes. Get a copy of
_The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt, which will explain the procedure
and rationale in detail. And of course, read the inevitable
"rebuttal" from jim beam which will be posted shortly, since Jobst's
name is like bacon to a bear for jim.

I think another thing to mention is when a rim becomes deformed, either
thru low tension or wacking something, that spot on the wheel the
tension becomes low and breaking a spoke there is not uncommon. I think
he is seeing the results of too light of a rim, too low of tension, too
few spokes.

Tim McNamara said:

I imagine you chew through rear tires pretty quickly
as well.

Yep. 4-to-1 rear replacement rate vs. front :P

Quoted message said:

I'm 210-220 lbs and have broken only one spoke in probably 8-9 years
of riding 6000-7000 mile a year (racing, touring, JRA and brevets),
and that one broke under braking at the start of the threads.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They always fail at a drive-side spoke bend, or if I don't have
eyelets, maybe a drive-side spoke hole.

Sounds like you need to stress-relieve your spokes. Get a copy of
_The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt, which will explain the procedure
and rationale in detail. And of course, read the inevitable
"rebuttal" from jim beam which will be posted shortly, since Jobst's
name is like bacon to a bear for jim.

Yeah, I've probably not stress relieved well enough in the past. I also
haven't yet invested in Jobst's book. I ought to if I'm going to stick
out this wheelbuilding thing. Pretty silly. I've probably built 10
wheels (road and MTB) and never read it. Come to think of it, I just
got a 30% coupon for Borders...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:
Ladera Norte, 26%? Where does this figure come from, please? (I could
start feeling better about life here..)

That's from measuring the distances and elevations using Google Earth.
I have a spreadsheet that takes start and end elevation, and distance,
converts to rise and run and gives a % grade.

The two steep sections of LDN are 26% (the one at the bottom, before
the Backtrail intersection, and the one at the top, approaching the
stop sign). Crazy huh?

You tried Smokey Valley near the bottom of LDN? I need to find out what
that peaks out at with GEarth, but it's steeper than LDN at its top...

Quoted message said:

Which shop(s) are you using to build for you? Only from new bike purchases. Most recent was Excel Sports when I ordered my Ritchey Road Logic (my current bike, and I love it to death). Previously, I had a Bridgestone RB-1, and I had bought a pair of wheels from Colorado Cyclist for it.

Quoted message said:

IME (I used to race at about your weight), using 36h wheels will help.

Yeah, it seems the right way to go.

Thanks,
Mike

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Invest in a tensionometer and make sure you stress relieve well. Also
do a 36h rear, build well with good components. Since you buiold your
own, ultegra hubs, 14/15 DT spokes, a Velocity Fusion rim...36/3 cross
rear

Well, looking at the Fusions, there are no eyelets. Every rear rim I've
had without eyelets has failed at the spoke hole. I'm sure I wasn't
maintaining the wheel properly, but I'll happily take the added weight
for peace of mind here.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

I think another thing to mention is when a rim becomes deformed,
either thru low tension or wacking something, that spot on the wheel
the tension becomes low and breaking a spoke there is not
uncommon. I think he is seeing the results of too light of a rim,
too low of tension, too few spokes.

Well, he said:

In my 15-years and 120,000 miles on the bike, I have nearly always
built my own wheels. I always start with an Ultegra or Dura-Ace
hub, then pick the best-value Mavic hoops (Open 4-CD, or whatever
was current at the time), and finish with some DT or Wheelsmith
14-15-14 spokes and brass nipples.

So I'd doubt that the rim is too light, and he's made good choices in
hubs, spokes and nipples. He didn't say how many spokes, but 32 is
pretty common. So the candidates for the cause are fairly limited:
overall spoke tension too low, spoke tension on just one or two spokes
too low, or lack of stress relieving.

In any event, he should still read _The Bicycle Wheel_ and try higher
tension and stress relieving.

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

maxo said:

Next time I build a set
for bumping around town, it's going to be plain jane Sun silver CR-18s.
Cheaper than dirt. :P

And still available in 27 inch! (630)

--

And in 26x 1 3/8--I've thought about putting them on momma's old German
single speed.

Quoted message said:

The two steep sections of LDN are 26% (the one at the bottom, before
the Backtrail intersection, and the one at the top, approaching the
stop sign). Crazy huh?

You tried Smokey Valley near the bottom of LDN? I need to find out what
that peaks out at with GEarth, but it's steeper than LDN at its top...

Well, like I said, I can feel better about life now <g>.

I think I climbed Smokey, slowly, once by bike. It's hard on motor
vehicles, too.
--D-y

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The two steep sections of LDN are 26% (the one at the bottom, before
the Backtrail intersection, and the one at the top, approaching the
stop sign). Crazy huh?

You tried Smokey Valley near the bottom of LDN? I need to find out what
that peaks out at with GEarth, but it's steeper than LDN at its top...

Well, like I said, I can feel better about life now <g>.

I think I climbed Smokey, slowly, once by bike. It's hard on motor
vehicles, too.

I'm glad I could help 🙂

Yeah, it's amazing to see how many more oil stains there are on Smokey
Valley. The cars are at such freak angles that the oil is resting on
gaskets overnight. I've slipped my rear a couple times on the oil.

-Mike

Art Harris said:

Mike said:

Usually I rebuild the wheel after the third spoke break because the last two usually occur pretty close together. That seems to happen around 18 months, with the first spoke break around 15 months.

Only a few possible reasons for multiple spoke breakage like that: Bad
batch of spokes, lack of proper stress relieving, or excess/uneven
spoke tension. You want the right side spokes to be just tight enough
so that the left side spokes don't go slack. One trick is to use
lighter gauge spokes on the left (e.g., 15-16-15) so that they will be
less likely to go slack for a given tension.

Art Harris

I thought you wanted pretty high tension on the drive side. I really do
need to read TBW. I've been greasing nipples and threads and getting
things pretty tight. Not crazy tight, but certainly beyond what you
describe.