Avoiding catabolism

andy141 said:

What tips apart from increased protein intake are there to avoid catabolism in endurance cycling.

I thought greater carb intake is what prevents catabolism. Increasing protein intake just provides more fuel for it, right? 😕

Well i guess its a different process in aerobic exercise compared to anerobic.

my understanding of catabolism is the breaking down of protein in muscle to provide fuel for energy. increased protein intake will allow the body to use the supplied protein instead of the stored protein. however i think in aerobic exercise (cycling) the body prefers to use carbs for energy?
and after the body has used up its gycogen storage, it then burns protein is that correct?

this is what im stuck on, if it is indeed true then you are correct and an increased carb intake is the solution

andy141 said:

What tips apart from increased protein intake are there to avoid catabolism in endurance cycling.

i am a bodybuilder and want to start cycling (road) to become leaner. i currently consume around 4-5000 calories a day 200-300g of protein (maintenance).

I would suggest rides at fairly low intensity for 2+ hours, with a carb based drink to keep you both hydrated, and also to keep your energy levels up. This will eat into your fat reserves, which will help you become more lean. If you ride at a higher intensity, you will burn glycogen only, whether aerobic or anaerobic, and it is at these high intensities that catabolism can occur. Maybe try taking a weak carb solution/drink, and an energy/carb bar, but only use the energy bar if you feel you cant complete the ride without consuming it. This is also governed by how much you have consumed before your ride.
When you've fininshed your ride, dont over do it with a large meal, as this may over-compensate for the energy you have actually used during your ride.
Smaller quantities are easier on the metabolism, and requires a degree of 'feel' as to how much you really need to quantify the energy consumed.
Hope this helps.

Quoted post said:

I would suggest rides at fairly low intensity for 2+ hours, with a carb based drink to keep you both hydrated, and also to keep your energy levels up. This will eat into your fat reserves, which will help you become more lean.

Interesting subject, staying lean is one of my primary motivations to cycle and I dont want to lose muscle, i'm thin enough.

Are low intensity Fasted-State AM rides likely to be any more or less catabolic / fat-burning?
.. I think the idea is you'd be into fat-burning mode quicker so the time on the bike is more 'productive' toward that goal, (and the carb drink would again be worthwhile if going >1hr).

I gathered large amounts of cardio (multiple hours per day) are frowned upon in BBing circles ? but does that apply to LOW intensity as mentioned here ?

A couple of years back after christmass feeling very lardy & still having holidays from work I did basically spend large amounts of time on the stationary bike (3hrs/day at only 500-600kcal/hour ) taking on carb drinks.

I was going on the mental formula that roughly 50% of the energy burned is carbohydrate. The motivation for the low intensity was the knowledge that I could definitely burn more total cals by pacing myself, mimicking the effect of going for a long walk.. i hoped i was burning off ~ 800 kcals/day directly from bodyfat on the bike without a 'starvation effect' (but a calorie deficit obviously)
The fat did indeed melt away quicky but i'm not sure if that was Catabolic too, i have no measurements to confirm i didn't lose muscle.. i didn't feel like i did.

I'd read on some other forum that WALKING can burn up to 90% of its requirement direct from fat .. is that REALLY true ? doesn't sound right, every other source gives this figure of burning up to 360kcal/hour from fat with some falloff, with increased carb burning with increased intensity.
Then again in my experience walking has worked very well to stay lean: Prior to taking up cycling, i used to be able to balance the fattening effect of binge-drinking ( even including late night curries.. yuk .. never again, i've lost that habit ) by walking to work, 2x4-5miles/day,uphill in am.

After an office move I figured cycling should be able to do the same job and also be far more interesting 🙂

Another picture i have in my head is some graph explaining no fat is burned for the first 15mins, then fatburning increases with time & gets significant at 30mins, but reaches it's peak at 1hr.. obviously conflicting with the fixed percentages rule of thumb; That would tally with the recomendation to go longer than 1 hour to make the time on the bike most productive. I think the fasted state puts you further ahead in that graph at the start. Again.. does that graph correspond with catabolism?
I've read you're only supposed to start taking on carb drinks past the 15min mark to ensure you enter fatburning mode, then the carbs just help sustain it longer.

ebola said:

I
I'd read on some other forum that WALKING can burn up to 90% of its requirement direct from fat .. is that REALLY true ? doesn't sound right, every other source gives this figure of burning up to 360kcal/hour from fat with some falloff, with increased carb burning with increased intensity.

It's hard to burn much more than around 400kcal/hr walking; the rule of thumb that a 150lb athlete burns 100kcals/mile from running also applies to walking. Going much faster than 4mph isn't really "walking"' anymore.

Note that at higher intensities of cycle exerise, you burn more fat calories as well; it's just that glyccogen use increases faster, so fat as a percentage of calories burned goes down. But since most people just want to burn fat, bring along a source of carbohydrates and hammer away!

andy141 said:

What tips apart from increased protein intake are there to avoid catabolism in endurance cycling.

i am a bodybuilder and want to start cycling (road) to become leaner. i currently consume around 4-5000 calories a day 200-300g of protein (maintenance).

I'm in the iron game too and 300 grams of protein is just plain nuts. You can maintain a positive nitrogen balance with far less than that.

As far as catabolism goes, aerobic exercise is very catabolic compared to resistance training so you're going to cross that line regardless of your training regimen. You can minimize it by keeping the workouts between 45 & 75 minutes though, same as when lifting. You may want to go as short as 30 minutes and just keep the intensity higher.

Keep in mind though that unless your lollygagging around at 65% to 70% max heart rate you are going to make inroads into your recuperative abitlities. I've tried brief but intense 20 minute cycling sessions twice a week mixed with resistance training 3 out of 5 days a week and it didn't take very long before I had chronic fatigue syndrome. Of course, youre mileage may vary depending on training years and genetic abilities and performance enhancing substances.

One way to lean up without taking the chance on cutting into your energy reserves is to cut back on that 4000+ calorie a day diet. That's going to be the most efficient way to lose the weight. Basically, do the road cycling if you want to become fitter and cut the food intake if you want to lean up. With that many calories you can cut back quite a bit and not be on a starvation diet.

Check out www.t-nation.com and see what Christian Thibaudeau did to lean up.

andy141 said:

My understanding of catabolism is the breaking down of protein in muscle to provide fuel for energy. increased protein intake will allow the body to use the supplied protein instead of the stored protein. however i think in aerobic exercise (cycling) the body prefers to use carbs for energy?
and after the body has used up its gycogen storage, it then burns protein is that correct?

Well, I don't think it is that simple. Not at all in fact.

Bottom line though, is that protein should not be used as a substrate during bodybuilding or endurance activity. Supplied protein are useful for muscle repair, not as a substrate.

If you want to do endurance activity (such as ergocycle), keep the intensity low, in order to keep the glycogen level high, allowing for better performances in your main activity, which is weight lifting. And adapt your diet.

And I agree with you. If you cycle, while having very low supply of glycogen, that is a bad thing. When the supply is very low, you should rest and wait until it replenish.

🙂

Doctor Morbius said:

One way to lean up without taking the chance on cutting into your energy reserves is to cut back on that 4000+ calorie a day diet. That's going to be the most efficient way to lose the weight. Basically, do the road cycling if you want to become fitter and cut the food intake if you want to lean up. With that many calories you can cut back quite a bit and not be on a starvation diet

That's what I was thinking. 4000 calories a day? 300 Grams of Protien? Good Greif!!! I want to see a picture.

L

Lonnie Utah said:

That's what I was thinking. 4000 calories a day? 300 Grams of Protien? Good Greif!!!

Two words ... obsessive compulsive.

Much of this stems back to the myths perpetuated in the 60's and 70's on volume training (which Arnold and Bill Pearl popularized) and the advertising of supplement companies, such as Joe Weider's. Back then the more is better philosophy prevailed even though that methodology of training doesn't work in the vast majority of people. The extra protein is just excreted out by the kidneys. Wastefull training methods and wasteful supplementation.

Even though it's been proven that athletes do need slightly higher protein intakes, our Western culture provides this in our daily food intake. Most people from the States and Europe consume more than enough protein for any bodybuilding or powerlifting training unless they are also consuming large amounts of steroids.

thanks a lot doc.

A good friend of mine is relying heavily on Arnold's book, and I do have a copy of Pearl's book on my desk (and I work in computing:o )...

Seriously, I use Pearl's book for the images, when I setup plans for my friends, I use those images to illustrate the exercices.

I like your thoughts on the subject.

🙂