spoke nipples?

G? Daniels said:

my nipples are killing me! ow ow ow ow!

Wear pasties.

It's not just the contrived illiteracy but the content that makes me wonder what grade education
stopped or never took place. The vocabulary is out of synch with the awkward attempt at misspelling
and grammar.

Quoted message said:

I'm not getting the turns per nipple i think I shud be getting. the nipples were out too soon. I
have uh Park's triangle tool that sez i get maybe five-six turns before the nipple sides burn off
and the irrevocable slide toward the file begins. this is not good. look's like five-six major rim
adjusts before a nipple gives up and i gotta take it apart to replace an expletive deleted nipple
or two or three.. that is not good it is not time efffective. is there a remedy?? a better nipple
than the standard dt or a better tool- how 'bout the nippple tool that vices down on the nipple
and costs $30 plus ??? expletive deleted.

What's the goal here?

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

1. /ensure/ you are properly lubed. lube and leave overnight if necessary.

2. use a proper tool. spokey is cheap and grips the flats on 3 sides, not just 2 like park.

3. use a tensiometer. park make one for about $50. spokes that are too tight get hard to turn.

4. make sure your spokes are the correct length. once you run out of thread, they get very hard to
turn indeed!

5. you should not have to be doing "major adjusts" like this. if the wheel is properly built, with
quality components, properly tensioned, and correctly "stress relieved", you should be pretty
much set for the life of the wheel.

6. enjoy.

g.daniels said:

my nipples are killing me! ow ow ow ow! I'm not getting the turns per nipple i think I shud be
getting. the nipples were out too soon. I have uh Park's triangle tool that sez i get maybe
five-six turns before the nipple sides burn off and the irrevocable slide toward the file begins.
this is not good. look's like five-six major rim adjusts before a nipple gives up and i gotta take
it apart to replace an expletive deleted nipple or two or three.. that is not good it is not time
efffective. is there a remedy?? a better nipple than the standard dt or a better tool- how 'bout
the nippple tool that vices down on the nipple and costs $30 plus ??? expletive deleted.

jim beam arranged the electrons to say:

Quoted message said:

1. /ensure/ you are properly lubed. lube and leave overnight if necessary.

2. use a proper tool. spokey is cheap and grips the flats on 3 sides, not just 2 like park.

3. use a tensiometer. park make one for about $50. spokes that are too tight get hard to turn.

4. make sure your spokes are the correct length. once you run out of thread, they get very hard to
turn indeed!

5. you should not have to be doing "major adjusts" like this. if the wheel is properly built, with
quality components, properly tensioned, and correctly "stress relieved", you should be pretty
much set for the life of the wheel.

6. enjoy.

That's all good advice, but I'd be interested in knowing why Jim is skeptical about stress relief,
as demonstrated by the quotation marks here and his arguments with Jobst Brandt elsewhere.

I'm no materials guy, as Jim seems to be. But the theory makes some sense to me and wide experience
confirm the benefits of stress relieving spokes. Is it improper terminology? Or is Jim simply
exasperated with guys who just unwind their spokes and call it "stress relieved"?

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

In article said:

G? Daniels said:

my nipples are killing me! ow ow ow ow!

Wear pasties.

It's not just the contrived illiteracy but the content that makes me wonder what grade education
stopped or never took place. The vocabulary is out of synch with the awkward attempt at
misspelling and grammar.

Quoted message said:

I'm not getting the turns per nipple i think I shud be getting. the nipples were out too soon. I
have uh Park's triangle tool that sez i get maybe five-six turns before the nipple sides burn
off and the irrevocable slide toward the file begins. this is not good. look's like five-six
major rim adjusts before a nipple gives up and i gotta take it apart to replace an expletive
deleted nipple or two or three.. that is not good it is not time efffective. is there a remedy??
a better nipple than the standard dt or a better tool- how 'bout the nippple tool that vices
down on the nipple and costs $30 plus ??? expletive deleted.

I think it's clear that G. Daniels has done too much Instant Messaging, and it affected his brain.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

my nipples are killing me! ow ow ow ow! I'm not getting the turns per nipple i think I shud be
getting. the nipples were out too soon. I have uh Park's triangle tool that sez i get maybe
five-six turns before the nipple sides burn off and the irrevocable slide toward the file begins.
this is not good. look's like five-six major rim adjusts before a nipple gives up and i gotta take
it apart to replace an expletive deleted nipple or two or three.. that is not good it is not time
efffective. is there a remedy?? a better nipple than the standard dt or a better tool- how 'bout
the nippple tool that vices down on the nipple and costs $30 plus ??? expletive deleted.

Two things. Make sure you oil the threads and the rim socket. You might also want to get a Spokey
spoke wrench. Under $10 and it works well.
------------
Alex

Quoted message said:

Is it improper terminology?

i guess "stress relief" is ok terminology because it's the common usage for the practice of
over-stressing individual spokes, but it's something of a misnomer. but let me be clear, there is
absolutely no doubt that it is /excellent/ wheel building practice!

my skepticism is for the reason commonly given on this group for why it works. spokes that stay
properly tensioned do not usually fatigue unless there is a reason [e.g. chain derailment gouging
notches from which cracks can grow].

from the failures i've examined, spokes that fatigued at the hub most commonly did so because they
were not properly tight and they started to move around in the spoke hole rather than staying put
through tension. that movement started a [fatigue] stress cycle at tiny surface defects in the spoke
elbow [left over from manufacture] which nucleated classic metal fatigue.

so, to avoid loosening, you momentarily over-tension individual spokes using the various methods
described in the books & web sites, you get a little yielding in the hub hole and the rim eyelet,
then you can tension up the wheel properly pretty much eliminating subsequent de-tensioning in use.

hey presto! you eliminate the primary source of fatigue initiation and thus broken spokes!

"stress relief" does *NOT* magically "change the crystal structure" of the spoke, does *NOT*
mystically erase the cold work history of the spoke and does *NOT* seek and destroy phantom internal
stress concentrations. neither does it sacrifice virgins on the 7th sunday of the month. it merely
allows the hub, spoke, nipple & rim to become *and remain* "intimate" in a way that prevents
subsequent loosening. just like proper torquing of the lug nuts on your car prevents them working
loose while driving. [improperly torqued lug nuts fatigue too...]

and that's it.

jb

Jim Beam said:

i guess "stress relief" is ok terminology because it's the common usage for the practice of
over-stressing individual spokes, but it's something of a misnomer. but let me be clear, there is
absolutely no doubt that it is /excellent/ wheel building practice!

Quoted message said:

my skepticism is for the reason commonly given on this group for why it works. spokes that stay
properly tensioned do not usually fatigue unless there is a reason [e.g. chain derailment gouging
notches from which cracks can grow].

Well go back to your metallurgy lab and perform a fatigue life test, take two spokes and give them
a manual kink in the middle. Then after stretching one to yield in situ and the other one as is,
perform a life test with a reasonable load. The one that was taken to yield before the fatigue
test will be completely stress free while the other will have residual stress from the manually
induced kink.

Just the same, it is highly possible that the un-yielded spoke will not break at the kink but at the
elbow or threads because they both have fairly high residual stress. You'll note that the spoke that
was stretched to yield will be perfectly straight on removal from the tester.

This has all been done in researching "the Bicycle Wheel."

Quoted message said:

from the failures i've examined, spokes that fatigued at the hub most commonly did so because they
were not properly tight and they started to move around in the spoke hole rather than staying put
through tension. that movement started a [fatigue] stress cycle at tiny surface defects in the
spoke elbow [left over from manufacture] which nucleated classic metal fatigue.

What causes these surface defects?

Quoted message said:

so, to avoid loosening, you momentarily over-tension individual spokes using the various methods
described in the books & web sites, you get a little yielding in the hub hole and the rim
eyelet, then you can tension up the wheel properly pretty much eliminating subsequent
de-tensioning in use.

Quoted message said:

hey presto! you eliminate the primary source of fatigue initiation and thus broken spokes!

I see no proof of that contention. That's a lot of "hand waving."

Quoted message said:

"stress relief" does *NOT* magically "change the crystal structure" of the spoke, does *NOT*
mystically erase the cold work history of the spoke and does *NOT* seek and destroy phantom
internal stress concentrations. neither does it sacrifice virgins on the 7th sunday of the month.
it merely allows the hub, spoke, nipple & rim to become *and remain* "intimate" in a way that
prevents subsequent loosening. just like proper torquing of the lug nuts on your car prevents them
working loose while driving. [improperly torqued lug nuts fatigue too...]

Stress relief relieves stress. There is an article in the FAQ that I don't care to rewrite every
time one of your ilk comes on the scene. It has happened often in the past but slowly ebbing. You
are a diehard.

draco.acs.uci.edu8c.1.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

and that's it.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

jim beam said:

from the failures i've examined, spokes that fatigued at the hub most commonly did so because they
were not properly tight and they started to move around in the spoke hole rather than staying put
through tension. that movement started a [fatigue] stress cycle at tiny surface defects in the
spoke elbow [left over from manufacture] which nucleated classic metal fatigue.

Interesting. That would explain how under-tensioned spokes, such as ones on the non-drive side, fail
when the higher tensioned spokes on the drive side don't. This problem ought to be fixed by
"improving the spoke like", as Jobst calls it.

Off to the garage to replace my rear rim (it was struck by a car this morning).
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

What's the goal here?

osteoporosis?

harumph??

one wonders if a serious touring vector lies somewhat above the purveyed world grade nipples
and spokes?

and if a solution can be had??

and, off course one wud have more fun without surf nazis and withering nipples !! not that down
time is without reward butt butt butt zuviel est, no?

yes. I have a spokey and an excellent tool it is as is the Parks triangle withah let's see 1-2 SIX!!
measures. yeah buitt butt the problem is not stress relief. The nipples are made of too soft
material for the adjustments necessary. The flippin nipples wear down thru the Parks adjustment
range and soon I'm at zero. So, i file the 6mm nipples. but the remedy must lie in a harder nipple
or a better tool. there are other tools, once seen in the third hand catalog, one is a parks? with a
screw/vise grip and the othet a butterfly handled? gizmo that vices from two sides? i wuz seeking
experience with these tools or suggestions for a general upgrade to a better nipple-maybe japanese
sources make stronger nipples than DT??

and i ran into-or explained another nipple ow ow ow ow problem this morn when two more spokes pulled
out whilst trying to align after another unseen session of vandalism at the rack. spare rim and
cluster(clack clack). on the road commuting i conjured a reason-the in shop made spokes were made
with a worn tol head?? thus less thread percentage and more probable pullout??

back to the distributor's cut spokes??

sorry jobst zooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmm!!!!

Quoted message said:

The one that was taken to yield before the fatigue test will be completely stress free while the
other will have residual stress from the manually induced kink.

"completely stress free"??? what is cold work? what is dislocation density? how are spoke wires
drawn? are they annealed before deployment? this claim does not accord with even a basic
understanding of materials.

Quoted message said:

What causes these surface defects?

drawing dies, bending mandrels, inclusions, grain texture... it's a long list. are you asking a
serious question? if you are, i'm glad to answer, but it worries me that someone with their own
individual theories for material behavior would ask such a thing. surely you've examined broken
spokes under a microscope and studied the fracture surface? it would give you chapter & verse on how
the component failed.

Quoted message said:

Stress relief relieves stress. There is an article in the FAQ that I don't care to rewrite every
time one of your ilk comes on the scene.

no, "stress relief" does *NOT* relieve stress in the way you keep saying. high tensile wire [spoke
wire] is fundamentally /full/ of residual stress. it's called "cold work". repetition does not make
you any more correct today than the first day you said it. nor will it in the future. why do you
think "my ilk" keep popping up? why don't you read a good materials book? you'd not only enlighten
yourself, you'd not give "my ilk" anything to complain about.

ISBN: 0070168938

it'll tell you all about fatigue jobst. it'll tell you about nucleation, growth and fracture. it'll
tell you about surface defects. it'll tell you about high tensile materials and dislocations too.

jb

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

yes. I have a spokey and an excellent tool it is as is the Parks triangle withah let's see 1-2
SIX!! measures. yeah buitt butt the problem is not stress relief. The nipples are made of too soft
material for the adjustments necessary. The flippin nipples wear down thru the Parks adjustment
range and soon I'm at zero. So, i file the 6mm nipples. but the remedy must lie in a harder nipple
or a better tool. there are other tools, once seen in the third hand catalog, one is a parks? with
a screw/vise grip and the othet a butterfly handled? gizmo that vices from two sides? i wuz seeking
experience with these tools or suggestions for a general upgrade to a better nipple-maybe japanese
sources make stronger nipples than DT??

Uh, I think you missed the tool recommedation. The brand name of the tool is Spokey. Not a spoke
key, which is what you call the tool. Using a good tool on well lubed nipples, I have never damaged
the nipples. Something is a miss.

-----------------
Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:20:49 -0400, Alex Rodriguez did issue forth:

Quoted message said:

Two things. Make sure you oil the threads and the rim socket. You might also want to get a Spokey
spoke wrench. Under $10 and it works well.

Seconded. Costs next to nothing, grips the nipple well and it's comfortable to use.

Huw "LBS sold me a second hand one for a quid" Pritchard

(g.daniels) said:

Quoted message said:

What's the goal here?

osteoporosis?

harumph??

one wonders if a serious touring vector lies somewhat above the purveyed world grade nipples and
spokes?

and if a solution can be had??

and, off course one wud have more fun without surf nazis and withering nipples !! not that down
time is without reward butt butt butt zuviel est, no?

Time to check your medication level, G.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

g.daniels said:

Quoted message said:

What's the goal here?

osteoporosis?

harumph??

one wonders if a serious touring vector lies somewhat above the purveyed world grade nipples and
spokes?

and if a solution can be had??

Brass is a good choice for nipples and the job they must do. Namely, enable a small fine-pitched
screw to turn with small adjustments while under great tension, with a minimum of weight and decent
corrosion/seize resistance. The problem of nipple rounding can be minimized by adequate lubrication
of the threads and of the nipple-rim interface. If you encounter a recalcitrant nipple; rather than
trying to force it to succumb to your desires it may be more productive (and certainly more kind) to
loosen it and try some lubricant first. If that still doesn't work, a replacement is not all that
difficult. A more durable nipple could be made but I think would result in a much larger/heavier
piece. And the extra mechanical advantage would soon come to naught when/if you encounter a firmly
stuck spoke because then the spoke becomes the weak part and this hypothetical big nipple would just
allow you to twist the spoke to destruction. I'm also leery of the "vise" mechanisms you mention.
While these might help in getting an already-unusable nipple off the bike, I don't know that they're
the proper tools for normal adjustment. Squeezing the nipple too hard is going to lead to early
failure. I've done it with locking pliers. p.s. I'm not one of these folks who claim to NEVER have
rounded a nipple. In addition to proper lube, a good wrench helps. Like other posters, I find the
"spokey(tm)" to be very effective.

Quoted message said:

and, off course one wud have more fun without surf nazis and withering nipples !! not that down
time is without reward butt butt butt zuviel est, no?

Perhaps just enough to learn the fixes. Keep spare nipples and spokes on hand, lube where needed,
and hone your wheel-truing skills. This will prevent most of the problems and allow you to fix the
exceptions quickly.

--------------090304070107030801090606 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <title></title>
</head> <body> <br> <br>
h.daniels wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite"
cite="[email hidden]"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre
wrap="">What's the goal here? </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> osteoporosis?

harumph??

one wonders if a serious touring vector lies somewhat above the purveyed world grade nipples
and spokes?

and if a solution can be had??</pre> </blockquote> Brass is a good choice for nipples and the job
they must do. Namely, enable a small fine-pitched screw to turn with small adjustments while
under great tension, with a minimum of weight and decent corrosion/seize resistance. The
problem of nipple rounding can be minimized by adequate lubrication of the threads and of the
nipple-rim interface. If you encounter a recalcitrant nipple; rather than trying to force it
to succumb to your desires it may be more productive (and certainly more kind) to loosen it and
try some lubricant first. If that still doesn't work, a replacement is not all that
difficult. A more durable nipple could be made but I think would result in a much
larger/heavier piece. And the extra mechanical advantage would soon come to naught when/if
you encounter a firmly stuck spoke because then the spoke becomes the weak part and this
hypothetical big nipple would just allow you to twist the spoke to destruction. I'm also
leery of the "vise" mechanisms you mention. While these might help in getting an
already-unusable nipple off the bike, I don't know that they're the proper tools for normal
adjustment. Squeezing the nipple too hard is going to lead to early failure. I've done
it with locking pliers. p.s. I'm not one of these folks who claim to NEVER have
rounded a nipple. In addition to proper lube, a good wrench helps. Like other posters,
I find the "spokey(tm)" to be very effective. <blockquote type="cite"
cite="[email hidden]"> <pre wrap=""> and, off course one wud
have more fun without surf nazis and withering nipples !! not that down time is without reward
butt butt butt zuviel est, no? </pre> </blockquote> Perhaps just enough to learn the fixes.
Keep spare nipples and spokes on hand, lube where needed, and hone your wheel-truing skills.
This will prevent most of the problems and allow you to fix the exceptions quickly.<br>
</body> </html>

--------------090304070107030801090606--

"Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Interesting. That would explain how under-tensioned spokes, such as ones on the non-drive side,
fail when the higher tensioned spokes on the drive side don't.

Total horsesh&t.

Everyone knows that the driveside spokes break more often, because that forces you to REMOVE THE
CASSETTE to replace 'em!

Bill "all too familiar with this phenomenon" S.

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The one that was taken to yield before the fatigue test will be completely stress free while the
other will have residual stress from the manually induced kink.

"completely stress free"??? what is cold work? what is dislocation density? how are spoke wires
drawn? are they annealed before deployment? this claim does not accord with even a basic
understanding of materials.

Quoted message said:

Stress relief relieves stress. There is an article in the FAQ that I don't care to rewrite every
time one of your ilk comes on the scene.

no, "stress relief" does *NOT* relieve stress in the way you keep saying. high tensile wire [spoke
wire] is fundamentally /full/ of residual stress. it's called "cold work".

Well, you are right that stress relieving will not make it "completely" stress free . See
lanl.govalum.htmlOpen ↗ , in that case the residual stresses were only 90% relieved,
which is about the best you can do with that type of aluminum alloy plate.

Stresses are stored elastically in the crystal lattice. Under tensile stress, the lattice planes are
farther apart, etc. Basic elasticity. That is why x-ray and neutron diffraction can measure residual
stress by only measuring the lattice spacing without having to measure information about
dislocations.

When you anneal or thermally stress relieve a material you will reduce both stresses and
dislocations. But when you stress relieve by putting in uniform plastic deformation, you can relive
stress at the same time you increase cold work.

There is a vast literature on stress relief BY cold work. They are most certainly not the
same thing.

Mike Prime

My opinions, not my employer's.

Sorni said:

Terry Morse said:

Interesting. That would explain how under-tensioned spokes, such as ones on the non-drive side,
fail when the higher tensioned spokes on the drive side don't.

Total horsesh&t.

Everyone knows that the driveside spokes break more often, because that forces you to REMOVE THE
CASSETTE to replace 'em!

Sorni's Law?

I guess I'm living a charmed life. All the spoke breaks I've had in the last several years have been
on the non-drive side. On machine-built wheels only.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

"Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sorni said:

Terry Morse said:

Interesting. That would explain how under-tensioned spokes, such as ones on the non-drive
side, fail when the higher tensioned spokes on the drive side don't.

Total horsesh&t.

Everyone knows that the driveside spokes break more often, because that forces you to REMOVE THE
CASSETTE to replace 'em!

Sorni's Law?

I guess I'm living a charmed life. All the spoke breaks I've had in the last several years have
been on the non-drive side. On machine-built wheels only.

Yes, Sorni's Law 🙂

I had an anodized Mavic 517 built with black 14g spokes (don't ask me why; guy recommended 'em).
Wheel lasted about two months before I started breaking spokes every other ride, and they were
almost always drive side. (This was a mtb, of course; my road bike is new so no experience yet.)

Finally bought some Crossmax XL's and haven't had to touch 'em once (~3 months or so).

Bill "$$$" S.