Challenge: Find a roundabout design that works

If it's one lane, not much engineering can be better than
'claim the lane' riding.
If it's multilane it's a whole new ball game...

Interesting lil' demo here:

waterloo council demo

Vicroads take on cycling roundabouts:

tinyurl.comb384rOpen ↗

vicroads.vic.gov.auTR2005253v2.pdfOpen ↗

NZ study which ahs some good recommendations (refer fig 8.2)

NZ study

Peter

Michael Yeates might be able to advise - old hand on road design in
Brissie.
michaelm AT@ myoffice DOT net DOT au
or via bikeqld list.

Donga

flyingdutch said:

If it's one lane, not much engineering can be better than
'claim the lane' riding.
If it's multilane it's a whole new ball game...

Interesting lil' demo here:

'waterloo council demo'
(http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/cycle?OpenPage)

Vicroads take on cycling roundabouts:

http://tinyurl.com/b384r

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrpdf/trum/TR2005253v2.pdf

NZ study which ahs some good recommendations (refer fig 8.2)

'NZ study' (http://www.bikenz.org.nz/Advocacy/Resource.aspx?ID=461)

Thanks. The Vicroads stuff has some good ideas.

The problem we have here is that the council has placed "islands" on the
left of the entry of the single lane roundabouts. The bicycle lanes end
abruptly at the islands. Cyclists can either merge with the traffic or
attempt to travel to the left of the island in the gutter, which is what
the council engineers recommend. This is probably the worst option
because the cyclist is out of the vision of a motorist scanning to the
right for traffic already in the roundabout.

The Vicroads idea of having the bikelane continue up to the roundabout
is one option, however there is still the problem of cyclists riding
side by side with motorists. What I suggested was that we provide
signage and roadmarkings that indicate that cyclists should merge with
traffic on the approach and become part of the traffic stream.

P

--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA

flyingdutch said:

If it's one lane, not much engineering can be better than
'claim the lane' riding.
If it's multilane it's a whole new ball game...

Interesting lil' demo here:

'waterloo council demo'
(http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/cycle?OpenPage)

Vicroads take on cycling roundabouts:

http://tinyurl.com/b384r

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrpdf/trum/TR2005253v2.pdf

NZ study which ahs some good recommendations (refer fig 8.2)

'NZ study' (http://www.bikenz.org.nz/Advocacy/Resource.aspx?ID=461)

Some good thought in those designs. I wonder how they'd cope with
this little beauty:
http://www.swindonweb.com/life/lifemagi0.htm

DeF

--
e-mail: [email hidden]
To reply, you'll have to remove finger.

Donga said:

Peter

Michael Yeates might be able to advise - old hand on road design in
Brissie.
michaelm AT@ myoffice DOT net DOT au
or via bikeqld list.

Donga

good idea. i'll drop him a line.

peter
--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA

DeF said:

I wonder how they'd cope with
this little beauty:
http://www.swindonweb.com/life/lifemagi0.htm

DeF

Better not produce that image at the next meeting, they will be
salivating too much to speak.

P

--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA

DeF said:

Some good thought in those designs. I wonder how they'd cope with
this little beauty:
http://www.swindonweb.com/life/lifemagi0.htm

Ah, yes the fabled Magic Roundabout!

Back to topic, I attended a BV LATM workshop last year with traffic engineers, here's some course notes:
http://www.bv.com.au/file/Cycle_Safe_LATMS_low_res.pdf
http://www.bv.com.au/inform.php?a=7&b=175&c=1473

This BV one shows some good examples (bad and good). worth having on hand when next you speak so you can illustrate why certain half-concieved suggestions wont work.

bv.com.auExamples%20of%20roundabouts.pdfOpen ↗

As the doc shows the best place to be for a cyclist entering a roundabout is in the middle of the lane, not 'tucked away' on the left

The only sensible place for a cyclist on a roundabout is smack bang in the middle of the lane you intend to exit from. Anything else is inviting grevious bodily harm.

On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:19:15 +1000, Peter McCallum said (and I quote):

Quoted message said:

I've just returned from Mackay City Council's Traffic Advisory Committee
meeting.

Many of the small roundabouts in this city have bike lanes on the
approaches and departures but they end abruptly at the concrete barriers
at the roundabouts. I suggested that there should be signage saying
something like "Bike lane ends. Merge In Turn" so that cyclists can use
the roundabout like any other vehicle.

This is a great example of the problems caused by bike lanes. They lead
people (both motorists and cyclists) to think in terms of "car" lanes
and "bike" lanes, and this model falls down at all intersections (not
just roundabouts).

I find single-lane roundabouts very easy to negotiate on a bicycle. I
much prefer them to alternatives such as stop signs or traffic lights.
What's the problem?

Quoted message said:

The Police representative suggested that I find a solution that works
and that the council agree to impliment it as a trial.

The solution is to use the roundabout in exactly the same way as all
other vehicles. No special infrastructure is needed.

Quoted message said:

So I'm looking for any examples you have of good roundabout design (yes
I know this is basically a contradiction in terms).

I prefer the lanes to narrow before the roundabout so as to discourage
cyclists and motorists from trying to enter the roundabout alongside
each other.
--
What was I thinking?

As mentioned by many other people the best way to deal with roundabouts whether single or multi lane is to behave as it you are in control of any other vehicle.

But there is the problem of giving way to other traffic if you are in the left lane and continuing on around the r'bout in being obliged to give way to traffic turnign left. Have a look at http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrne/vrne5nav.nsf/FirstChild/-0FFFDE1079575E47CA256FD300241C36 for a clearer explanation.

Still better of taking the lane as you would in a car.

CC

[email hidden] (Peter McCallum) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

flyingdutch

Quoted message said:

If it's one lane, not much engineering can be better than
'claim the lane' riding.
If it's multilane it's a whole new ball game...

Interesting lil' demo here:

'waterloo council demo'
(http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/cycle?

Open

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Page)

Vicroads take on cycling roundabouts:

http://tinyurl.com/b384r

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrpdf/trum/TR2005253v2.pdf

NZ study which ahs some good recommendations (refer fig
8.2)

'NZ study'
(http://www.bikenz.org.nz/Advocacy/Resource.aspx?ID=461)

Thanks. The Vicroads stuff has some good ideas.

The problem we have here is that the council has placed
"islands" on the left of the entry of the single lane
roundabouts. The bicycle lanes end abruptly at the islands.
Cyclists can either merge with the traffic or attempt to
travel to the left of the island in the gutter, which is
what the council engineers recommend. This is probably the
worst option because the cyclist is out of the vision of a
motorist scanning to the right for traffic already in the
roundabout.

The Vicroads idea of having the bikelane continue up to the
roundabout is one option, however there is still the
problem of cyclists riding side by side with motorists.
What I suggested was that we provide signage and
roadmarkings that indicate that cyclists should merge with
traffic on the approach and become part of the traffic
stream.

P

I'm just waiting to see if you come up with a good idea here.
From a traffic engineering perspective roundabouts have two
disadvantages: -

1. Peds and cyclists aren't catered for easily
2. Cost to remove them when they run out of capacity

Of course the small ones councils tend to use are the worst.

You might be interested to know that the signs you suggest
(Merge in Turn) were supposed to be removed with the
introduction of the Road Rules reg. Mackay was about the
only place that Main Roads had many of them. We took one
down and it was complete chaos suddenly nobody knew how to
merge. We fairly quickly decided to leave them alone.

The island you refer to is intended to slow approaching
vehicles. It would be possible to cut the island back to
provide a bike lane on the entry but you might have an issue
with traffic speed (more apparent width). The sign idea
probably got knocked back because there are some many signs
associated with roundabouts but if done properly probably has
some merit.

Then there is the issue of how to accomodate the turning
cyclist and if you try a circulating cycle lane, the exiting
vehicle.

Solution - avoid roundabouts and use seagulls and signals
when possible (expensive though).

Cheers

BrettM

cogcontrol said:

As mentioned by many other people the best way to deal with roundabouts
whether single or multi lane is to behave as it you are in control of
any other vehicle.

But there is the problem of giving way to other traffic if you are in
the left lane and continuing on around the r'bout in being obliged to
give way to traffic turnign left. Have a look at
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrne/vrne5nav.nsf/FirstChild/-0FFFDE1079575E47CA256FD300241C36
for a clearer explanation.

Still better of taking the lane as you would in a car.

CC

I read recently about a new type of roundabout. I can't remember exactly
how it worked but it was like a cluster of small roundabouts and you
turned in the opposite direction to what you would normally. Apparently
it works very well. I think they were implemented in Britain somewhere.

marty

BrettM said:

Of course the small ones councils tend to use are the worst.

The small single lane roundabouts used by local councils in residential
streets are the easiest to cope with as a cyclist IMHO. Just take possession
of your lane 30-50 metres before you reach it and control the road space on
the roundabout to do your turn. Treat the roundabout as you would if you
were driving a car and you'll get through very happily.

Quoted message said:

You might be interested to know that the signs you suggest
(Merge in Turn) were supposed to be removed with the
introduction of the Road Rules reg. Mackay was about the
only place that Main Roads had many of them. We took one
down and it was complete chaos suddenly nobody knew how to
merge. We fairly quickly decided to leave them alone.

Recent section on ABC's Catalyst (?) about a roundabout in a Dutch city that
was a blackspot. Traffic engineers removed _all_ signs and most road
markings. It forced motorists to slow down and actually engege in a process
of 'negotiation' with other road users to proceed. Accident rates have
dropped markedly and safety for peds and cyclists is much enhanced.

Quoted message said:

snip>

Quoted message said:

Solution - avoid roundabouts and use seagulls and signals
when possible (expensive though).

What are these 'seagulls' you refer to?

Cheers
Peter

This roundabout in Hemel Hempstead in the UK is fun. The first time Euan and I drove through it we were gobsmacked but it really works. Not sure if it's going to help the bicycle problem much but I do find traffic goes through this type of roundabout much slower.
bbc.co.ukA381089Open ↗
galactic-guide.com2R64.htmlOpen ↗
en.wikipedia.orgMagic Roundabout (Hemel Hempstead)Open ↗

Some info on the psychology of roundabouts:
bbc.co.ukA112339Open ↗

On 2005-12-02, Baka Dasai (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:19:15 +1000, Peter McCallum said (and I quote):

Quoted message said:

I've just returned from Mackay City Council's Traffic Advisory Committee
meeting.

Many of the small roundabouts in this city have bike lanes on the
approaches and departures but they end abruptly at the concrete barriers
at the roundabouts. I suggested that there should be signage saying
something like "Bike lane ends. Merge In Turn" so that cyclists can use
the roundabout like any other vehicle.

This is a great example of the problems caused by bike lanes. They lead
people (both motorists and cyclists) to think in terms of "car" lanes
and "bike" lanes, and this model falls down at all intersections (not
just roundabouts).

I find single-lane roundabouts very easy to negotiate on a bicycle. I
much prefer them to alternatives such as stop signs or traffic lights.
What's the problem?

One problem, which has a solution, is vehicle speed. It was only my
attention to the fact that the car wasn't slowing down, that I didn't
get smacked by a 50km/h car when I was right turning in a roundabout.

I had my arm out signalling, and I should have been as clear as day,
but the stupid idiot in shiny black mercedes just went on straight
through without braking at all. Missed my front wheel by about 30cm.
And I was trying to be as car like and predictable as possible.

Quoted message said:

I prefer the lanes to narrow before the roundabout so as to discourage
cyclists and motorists from trying to enter the roundabout alongside
each other.

Keeping in mind emergency vehicles, I hope. I guess the reason why
the roundabouts around my place can be negotiated so quickly is
because it is a bus route, and the bus needs to get around them.
Which of course means all the 4WDing idiots just drive over the
roundabout all the time.

--
TimC
As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.

flyingdutch said:

If it's one lane, not much engineering can be better than
'claim the lane' riding.

Exactly.

Why on earth would you want to ride on the outside of cars where the
driver has no visibility at all of where you are?

People really struggle to keep track of multiple objects in different
locations doing different speeds. That's the entire point of
roundabouts: so that all the traffic is going in one direction and
speed and drivers only have to keep track of what is infront of them,
right in the middle of their field of vision.

At a single lane roundabout a cyclist isn't travelling much slower
than a car should be, and would be going faster than a turning bus or
truck, so what's teh problem with just merging with the traffic?

I like the way engineers expect the cyclists to ride through the
gutter, branches and glass and then enter the roundabout seperately in
a manner drivers never expect in their worst blind spot. And engineers
are supposed to be pragmatic people.

Quoted message said:

If it's multilane it's a whole new ball game...

The NZ paper's approach that the only way to make them safer for
cyclists is to slow down all traffic to 30km/h.

I would never try ride around in the outside lane for right hand turn,
drivers just don't expect that so tend to try and enter and exit
through you. Theoretically you are supposed to slow down or stop in
the middle of the roundabout to give a car exiting right-of-way, but
that is hardly safe either. Better to act like a car would then you
just have to worry about the cars entering on your left at the turn
before your exit (and do a loop if needed).

dewatf.

Cairns has the best roundabouts that I have seen outside Amsterdam.
Please take a trip and study them....

I had the misfortune of having to negotiate this roundabout for the first
time when taking my driving test a number of years ago!! I failed! The
monster 2-way roundabout and its satelite mini roundabouts weren't there
when I used to cycle through Hemel Hempstead in previous years. It was a
shocker!

Graeme

"SuzieB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This roundabout in Hemel Hempstead in the UK is fun. The first time Euan
and I drove through it we were gobsmacked but it really works. Not sure
if it's going to help the bicycle problem much but I do find traffic
goes through this type of roundabout much slower.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A381089
http://www.galactic-guide.com/articles/2R64.html
'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempstead)'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_%28Hemel_Hempstead%29)

Some info on the psychology of roundabouts:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A112339

--
SuzieB