How cycle friendly is the UK?

Try cycling in Southern Ireland, I lived there 3 years, riding a bike
is suicidal, a quarter of the drivers have never had to pass a test, a
quarter are drunk, a quarter on a never ending provisional license, the
rest think what is that nutcase doing on 2 wheels. I am lucky, I now
live in Hull, plenty of cycle lanes, possibly the best cycle city in UK
apart from York. But the motorists in Hull another story. As for Ann
Wiiddecombe you could do with a little exercise so get on a bike,
reduce the chance of heart attack and save the health service some
pounds.

col said:

I am lucky, I now
live in Hull, plenty of cycle lanes, possibly the best cycle city in UK
apart from York. But the motorists in Hull another story.

Ha, I second that!

Timo said:

Is it really true that the UK is the most cycle-unfriendly country in
Europe?
Or do Bristish cyclists just like to moan?

I'd like to know your opinion.

I've cycled in Austria, France, The Netherlands, Denmark, Germany,
Italy, and Sweden. I'm not British, so when I first moved to this
country I had no prejudices, and I must admit - my impression was not
all that bad. True, cycling here is a long way from cycling in The
Netherlands. But I wouldn't say Britain is the worst country for
cycling. In my opinion it comes somewhere in the middle of the list.

Unfortunately, cycling facilities in the UK are appalling. At best the
so-called cycle lanes in British towns and cities are a bad joke. At
worst, they're outright dangerous. And all those roundabouts don't help
either.

But the behaviour of British drivers makes up for that disadvantage. In
my experience British drivers are the most considerate in Europe apart
from Sweden. If you don't believe me you should try cycling in Italy!
Idiot drivers are a minority, and you get them everywhere in the world.
Am I just lucky because there aren't many chavs on the roads around
where I live (Cambridge)? How is the situation in your town?

I must admit that London drivers are a lot more aggressive (maybe it's
just all the foreigners from hot countries who live there - curiously,
there seems to be a correlation between latitude and how cycle-friedly
a country is :-) )

What I also like about cycling in Britain is that the weather is almost
ideal for it. When you're exerting
yourself you don't want it too warm, neither do you want to cycle in
the frost. By and large, cycling in
the UK is very pleasurable as long as you avoid big roads.

Do you agree?

Cambridge is atypical. There's a critical mass (small "c", small "m"😉
of cyclists so drivers expect them and behave accordingly. Round here
there ar a lot of charvers and psychos.

"Timo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is it really true that the UK is the most cycle-unfriendly country in
Europe?
Or do Bristish cyclists just like to moan?

I'd like to know your opinion.

What I find most dangerous is that drivers here often insist on overtaking
against oncoming traffic when there is not enough room. I've done a lot of
cycling in France and find that drivers there will nearly always wait until
there is no oncoming traffic and then pass wide. I'm not really interested
in cycling facilities and would rather most were removed so that it would be
better understood that cyclists have equal status with other vehicles.
Saying that I think that most motorists here take good care and that bad
driving examples represent a very small percentage.

Ken.

You're right about the cycling facilities. It's a case of
all-or-nothing. Poor cycling facilities are worse than none at all.
There is a big cycle path debate in Germany. Opponents claim that cycle
paths don't avoid accidents because most collisions happen at
junctions. Probably true, but I do think that cycle paths increase the
perception of safety at least, and therefore encourage more people to
cycle. The only country where cycle paths have been a great success is
the Netherlands, but that's because there are no gaps and cyclists
normally have priority at junctions. Would be hard to achieve in the UK.

Timo,

The casualty figures show that, on a per km ridden or per trip basis,
the UK is one of the most dangerous place in Europe to cycle. There is
plenty of research showing that on the whole UK driver attitudes to
cyclists are pretty appalling and what's more many motorists let these
attitudes influence the way they drive. (See the Scottish Office report
'Drivers and cyclists as equal road users, for example). It seems
demonising and marginalising 'dangerous' cyclists, or come to that any
cyclists, is a favourite pass-time of the UK media. (Lycra louts,
two-wheeled terrorists', 'tree hugging muesli munchers' etc etc ad
nauseam). Cycle sport has always being marginalised in the UK as
opposed to Continental Europe. UK cyclists (and pedestrians) injured by
drivers are the least well served in Europe by the justice system. (An
EU/ European Federation of Road Traffic Victims report called 'Impact
of road death and injury' found that UK victims of road crashes and
driving crime were the least satisfied in Europe with both the
financial compensation provided and the sentence the driver received).
The police and 'Community warden's in the UK seem to make a sport out
of fining 'pavement cyclists' in contravention of Home Office
guidelines on the use of fixed-penalty notices, and do so in areas
where in countries such as Holland or Denmark or France no one would
even think of fining a cyclist.

However, moving to France this year has been a revelation and I no
longer go out on my bike with a ball of fear in my stomach.

I would like to add my vote to Hull being particularly cycling
unfriendly. There are regular assaults on cyclists in Hull, many of the
motorists there drive like lunatics, according to the police 1 in 5
Hull drivers have no insurance and currently over half of all crashes
there leading to death or injury result in the driver doing a 'hit and
run'.

Perhaps you are just very tolerant. I notice that on another thread you
complain that you've had "people actually taking the trouble to slow
down and lower the window just to shout obscenities at me - on several
occasions."

Quoted message said:

Timo,

The casualty figures show that, on a per km ridden or per trip basis,
the UK is one of the most dangerous place in Europe to cycle. There is
plenty of research showing that on the whole UK driver attitudes to
cyclists are pretty appalling and what's more many motorists let these
attitudes influence the way they drive. (See the Scottish Office report
'Drivers and cyclists as equal road users, for example). It seems
demonising and marginalising 'dangerous' cyclists, or come to that any
cyclists, is a favourite pass-time of the UK media. (Lycra louts,
two-wheeled terrorists', 'tree hugging muesli munchers' etc etc ad
nauseam). Cycle sport has always being marginalised in the UK as
opposed to Continental Europe. UK cyclists (and pedestrians) injured by
drivers are the least well served in Europe by the justice system. (An
EU/ European Federation of Road Traffic Victims report called 'Impact
of road death and injury' found that UK victims of road crashes and
driving crime were the least satisfied in Europe with both the
financial compensation provided and the sentence the driver received).
The police and 'Community warden's in the UK seem to make a sport out
of fining 'pavement cyclists' in contravention of Home Office
guidelines on the use of fixed-penalty notices, and do so in areas
where in countries such as Holland or Denmark or France no one would
even think of fining a cyclist.

However, moving to France this year has been a revelation and I no
longer go out on my bike with a ball of fear in my stomach.

I would like to add my vote to Hull being particularly cycling
unfriendly. There are regular assaults on cyclists in Hull, many of the
motorists there drive like lunatics, according to the police 1 in 5
Hull drivers have no insurance and currently over half of all crashes
there leading to death or injury result in the driver doing a 'hit and
run'.

Perhaps you are just very tolerant. I notice that on another thread you
complain that you've had "people actually taking the trouble to slow
down and lower the window just to shout obscenities at me - on several
occasions."

Jesus a bit heavy on Hull, the city council are very cycle friendly
doing lots to encourage cycling, yes the motorists are fast, ignorant
of cyclists. Have to say in 20 yrs of cycling in UK had a lot of near
hits but never ben knocked off my bike, however 3 yrs in Ireland
knocked off once and browned my pants a few times.

"I notice that on another thread you
complain that you've had "people actually taking the trouble to slow
down and lower the window just to shout obscenities at me - on several
occasions."

Well, aggression doesn't bother me that much as long as it remains
verbal.

Having worked in a professional capacity alongside Hull City Council I
would argue that whilst their old 'cycling officer' (Andy Mayo) was
very good, they have now completely lost the plot when it comes for
cycling. What's more their senior 'road safety' officer is about as
car-centric as they come and a real 'cyclist safety = polystyrene hats'
guru. He has also seriously argued to me that when cyclists are run
down and killed or injure it is almost always their own fault...

Hull City Council are continuing to refuse to do anything about Spring
bank Level Crossing, despite the huge number of casualties that occur
there. They can't be bothered to put up signs indicating that the
bridge by 'The Deep is a cycle bridge (and paid for as such out of
Millennium Commission money) they have recently created a deathtrap of
a 'cycle route' on the footway leading to St. Andrews Quay, they love
putting advertising signs in front of drivers on roundabouts, the list
goes one.

On top of all that Humberside Police are a disgrace. Good at fining
beggars and pavement cyclists but not much else. No wonder they are
rated as being the worst police force in the country. On doing a day of
'spot checks' and finding that 1 in 5 drivers had no insurance it took
them 10 months to go out again and do a similar check. Guess what?
Nothing had changed. Hardly surprising with that level of
'enforcement'!

However, at least going by the figures, Ireland is even worse, as are
Portugal and Greece.

" ... aggression doesn't bother me that much as long as it remains
verbal."

Well, having motorists shout abuse and threats at me when I cycle does
not equate in my mind with living in a 'cycle friendly' country. I
certainly have experienced nothing of the sort here in France!

Also where 'verbal' aggression is common this is usually an expression
of a wider prejudice or hostility in society. Generally, where it is
thought acceptable for a significant number of people to behave in a
verbally aggressive manner towards a particular social group and
smaller but still significant proportion of these will see nothing
wrong with taking that aggression further.

Timo said:

Is it really true that the UK is the most cycle-unfriendly country in
Europe? Or do Bristish cyclists just like to moan?

I'd like to know your opinion.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But the behaviour of British drivers makes up for that disadvantage.
In my experience British drivers are the most considerate in Europe
apart from Sweden. If you don't believe me you should try cycling in
Italy! Idiot drivers are a minority, and you get them everywhere in
the world. Am I just lucky because there aren't many chavs on the
roads around where I live (Cambridge)? How is the situation in your
town?

German drivers are ace. That's because they are going to get right
royally screwed if they hit you, it makes them courteous and aware. Add
to this the fact the Germans cycle a lot themselves makes for a pleasant
experience.

English drivers are idiots imho.

Timo said:

Is it really true that the UK is the most cycle-unfriendly country in
Europe? Or do Bristish cyclists just like to moan?

I'd like to know your opinion.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But the behaviour of British drivers makes up for that disadvantage.
In my experience British drivers are the most considerate in Europe
apart from Sweden. If you don't believe me you should try cycling in
Italy! Idiot drivers are a minority, and you get them everywhere in
the world. Am I just lucky because there aren't many chavs on the
roads around where I live (Cambridge)? How is the situation in your
town?

German drivers are ace. That's because they are going to get right
royally screwed if they hit you, it makes them courteous and aware. Add
to this the fact the Germans cycle a lot themselves makes for a pleasant
experience.

English drivers are idiots imho.

Timo said:

Unfortunately, cycling facilities in the UK are appalling. At best the
so-called cycle lanes in British towns and cities are a bad joke. At
worst, they're outright dangerous. And all those roundabouts don't
help either.

I don't find much need for cycling facilities, so the fact that they're
appalling doesn't bother me if I'm not using them

Quoted message said:

What I also like about cycling in Britain is that the weather is
almost ideal for it. When you're exerting
yourself you don't want it too warm, neither do you want to cycle in
the frost. By and large, cycling in
the UK is very pleasurable as long as you avoid big roads.

I agree. I love the weather in the UK.
--
Ambrose

Having worked in a professional capacity alongside Hull City Council I
would argue that whilst their old 'cycling officer' (Andy Mayo) was
very good, they have now completely lost the plot when it comes for
cycling. What's more their senior 'road safety' officer is about as
car-centric as they come and a real 'cyclist safety = polystyrene hats'
guru. He has also seriously argued to me that when cyclists are run
down and killed or injure it is almost always their own fault...

Hull City Council are continuing to refuse to do anything about Spring
bank Level Crossing, despite the huge number of casualties that occur
there. They can't be bothered to put up signs indicating that the
bridge by 'The Deep is a cycle bridge (and paid for as such out of
Millennium Commission money) they have recently created a deathtrap of
a 'cycle route' on the footway leading to St. Andrews Quay, they love
putting advertising signs in front of drivers on roundabouts, the list
goes one.

On top of all that Humberside Police are a disgrace. Good at fining
beggars and pavement cyclists but not much else. No wonder they are
rated as being the worst police force in the country. On doing a day of
'spot checks' and finding that 1 in 5 drivers had no insurance it took
them 10 months to go out again and do a similar check. Guess what?
Nothing had changed. Hardly surprising with that level of
'enforcement'!

However, at least going by the figures, Ireland is even worse, as are
Portugal and Greece.

Tosspot said:

Timo said:

Is it really true that the UK is the most cycle-unfriendly country in
Europe? Or do Bristish cyclists just like to moan?

I'd like to know your opinion.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But the behaviour of British drivers makes up for that disadvantage.
In my experience British drivers are the most considerate in Europe
apart from Sweden. If you don't believe me you should try cycling in
Italy! Idiot drivers are a minority, and you get them everywhere in
the world. Am I just lucky because there aren't many chavs on the
roads around where I live (Cambridge)? How is the situation in your
town?

German drivers are ace. That's because they are going to get right
royally screwed if they hit you, it makes them courteous and aware. Add
to this the fact the Germans cycle a lot themselves makes for a pleasant
experience.

English drivers are idiots imho.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, we are not all idiots though.

Timo said:

You're right about the cycling facilities. It's a case of
all-or-nothing. Poor cycling facilities are worse than none at all.
There is a big cycle path debate in Germany. Opponents claim that cycle
paths don't avoid accidents because most collisions happen at
junctions. Probably true, but I do think that cycle paths increase the
perception of safety at least, and therefore encourage more people to
cycle. The only country where cycle paths have been a great success is
the Netherlands, but that's because there are no gaps and cyclists
normally have priority at junctions. Would be hard to achieve in the UK.

Not a great succss in Denmark ?

In message id <[email hidden]>
on 1 Dec 2005 10:07:28 -0800, Timo wrote in uk.rec.cycling :

Quoted message said:

Is it really true that the UK is the most cycle-unfriendly country in
Europe?
Or do Bristish cyclists just like to moan?

I'd like to know your opinion.

I've been lurking in aus.bicycle (call it a Usenet holiday) for a few
months. The volume of Usenet traffic in there is comparable to here.
Occasionally it is heavier. Similar types of content.

Vastly different population numbers.

The UK is host to about 60 million. I don't know how many of that
subset are cyclists, within that, regular cyclists, within that
regular cyclists with regular access to the Internet, in particular
Usenet.

Oz hosts about 18 million and with their geographic spread (3,000 mile
coast to coast whilst Coast to Coast is a regular ride in the UK),
cyclists I would guess would be a smaller percentage of the total
population. And then within that the subsets as above.

So what I am getting at, is that for a smaller population, with likely
smaller numbers in Usenet, they moan a lot more than the whinging
pommies!

Understandably, Oz is outside your sphere of reference (Europe), but
seeing as so many Europeans have made Oz there home, I thought it
loosely connected.

If you think we moan, there is somewhere worse!

On 1 Dec 2005 10:07:28 -0800, "Timo" <[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Is it really true that the UK is the most cycle-unfriendly country in
Europe?

Not to my knowledge

Quoted message said:

Or do Bristish cyclists just like to moan?

I think the answer is in the question here :-)

Quoted message said:

I've cycled in Austria, France, The Netherlands, Denmark, Germany,
Italy, and Sweden. I'm not British, so when I first moved to this
country I had no prejudices, and I must admit - my impression was not
all that bad. True, cycling here is a long way from cycling in The
Netherlands. But I wouldn't say Britain is the worst country for
cycling. In my opinion it comes somewhere in the middle of the list.

That is probably about right. Rural France is better than rural UK,
urban France (IMO) worse than urban UK. Denmark and Netherlands have
nice laws making it pretty much the driver's responsibility not to hit
people (novel idea, why has nobody tried it here?).

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, cycling facilities in the UK are appalling. At best the
so-called cycle lanes in British towns and cities are a bad joke. At
worst, they're outright dangerous. And all those roundabouts don't help
either.

Do you mean they are infested with cagers? Or is it the potholes
you're talking about? The cycle facilities around here are fine, they
grit the bus routes in winter and the traffic is sufficiently snarled
up that it can't move quick enough to cause much danger, so the
facilities are quite usable. Elsewhere they are less so - there is
one near where I work where the drivers want you off the cycle
facility and on the pavement, which has a stupid white line painted on
it.

Ah, wait, I can see we might be at cross-purposes here....

Quoted message said:

But the behaviour of British drivers makes up for that disadvantage. In
my experience British drivers are the most considerate in Europe apart
from Sweden.

No, give me rural French drivers over any British driver any day.

Quoted message said:

I must admit that London drivers are a lot more aggressive (maybe it's
just all the foreigners from hot countries who live there - curiously,
there seems to be a correlation between latitude and how cycle-friedly
a country is :-) )

See, I never find London a problem. My 11-year-old son found it a bit
intimidating at first, riding through the West End and the City, but
soon got used to it.

Quoted message said:

What I also like about cycling in Britain is that the weather is almost
ideal for it. When you're exerting
yourself you don't want it too warm, neither do you want to cycle in
the frost. By and large, cycling in
the UK is very pleasurable as long as you avoid big roads.

Yes, for the most part.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken