Why is SRAM going with a 10s ...

The top three groups of both Shimano (Dura-Ace, Ultegra, 105) and
Campagnolo (Record, Chorus, Centaur) are all 10 speed. In other words,
anything halfway decent that you'd want on your bike is 10 speed. So
why would SRAM build a 9 speed group? The main 9 speed competition are
the Tiagra and Sora groups - not very appealing.

A huge amount of SRAM's business is with existing Shimano customers -
the SRAM and Shimano groups are fully compatible. That means SRAM *has*
to be 10 speed, or lose business.

smiles said:

road group and not just chains and cassettes??

I noticed this recently ... was glad to see them in the 10s biz ... but why
the group?? Don't get me wrong I am happy to see this ... i love anything
other than Shimano ... having Campy on my road bike;-) Just wondering why
they did not do this with the 9s groups??

s
http://chapter11bikes.com
http://chapter11sk8.com

Well, for good or ill, that is the direction that road casettes are a
going and about the limit they will go considering 130mm spacing, hub
design and cog/chain thickness, reliability.

If they were to start at 9s they would be viewed as 'inferior' by those
that care about such things.

Quoted message said:

The top three groups of both Shimano (Dura-Ace, Ultegra, 105) and
Campagnolo (Record, Chorus, Centaur) are all 10 speed

Veloce also, for a few years now....

.. In other words,

Quoted message said:

anything halfway decent that you'd want on your bike is 10 speed. So
why would SRAM build a 9 speed group? The main 9 speed competition are
the Tiagra and Sora groups - not very appealing.

A huge amount of SRAM's business is with existing Shimano customers -
the SRAM and Shimano groups are fully compatible

Not exactly...lots of rear ders and shfiters from Sram are cross
compatible with shimano but their high end is not, from Sram.

.. That means SRAM *has*

Quoted message said:

to be 10 speed, or lose business.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A huge amount of SRAM's business is with existing Shimano customers -
the SRAM and Shimano groups are fully compatible

Not exactly...lots of rear ders and shfiters from Sram are cross
compatible with shimano but their high end is not, from Sram.

Rear derailer cable pull isn't, but front derailer cable pull and cassette
spacing *are*. That means that all that goes together is their shifter and
rear derailer, on the high end only, and all the rest is mix'n'match. I
wouldn't call that being terribly incompatible. Don't the SRAM shifters
use Shimano inner cable ends, as well? And housing's compatible through
all manufacturers, essentially.

Jasper

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The top three groups of both Shimano (Dura-Ace, Ultegra, 105) and
Campagnolo (Record, Chorus, Centaur) are all 10 speed. In other words,
anything halfway decent that you'd want on your bike is 10 speed. So
why would SRAM build a 9 speed group? The main 9 speed competition are
the Tiagra and Sora groups - not very appealing.

Sora is still, and probably will forever be, 8-speed.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

The top three groups of both Shimano (Dura-Ace, Ultegra, 105) and
Campagnolo (Record, Chorus, Centaur) are all 10 speed. In other words,
anything halfway decent that you'd want on your bike is 10 speed.

Sounds like you're a complete sucker for marketing!

Do you _really_ think adding another cog makes you that much faster?
Do you _really_ think anything below the "most the market can bear"
price is junk?

Both ideas are silly.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The top three groups of both Shimano (Dura-Ace, Ultegra, 105) and
Campagnolo (Record, Chorus, Centaur) are all 10 speed. In other words,
anything halfway decent that you'd want on your bike is 10 speed.

Sounds like you're a complete sucker for marketing!

Do you _really_ think adding another cog makes you that much faster?
Do you _really_ think anything below the "most the market can bear"
price is junk?

Both ideas are silly.

However true that may be, and I do believe there is a lot of truth to it, if I
were getting in the business of selling parts for road bikes I'd make them ten
speed.

Ron

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:29:26 -0500, "smiles" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

road group and not just chains and cassettes??

IMO, it's precisely because $himano has done such a stunning job of
propagandizing the market about the Need To Have The Whole Group. I'm
guessing that SRAM decided it was easier to just take the extra money
and not have to spend any time explaining that the customer doesn't
need that other stuff.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Well, for good or ill, that is the direction that road casettes are a
going and about the limit they will go considering 130mm spacing, hub
design and cog/chain thickness, reliability.

Well they can change all that too if they want. Shimano has tried
smaller chains before, and had working prototypes but never marketed it.
They've shown plans for a 14 speed cassette, also using a smaller
chain.

Quoted message said:

If they were to start at 9s they would be viewed as 'inferior' by those
that care about such things.

I thought 7sp was plenty, even for mountain bikes. With 9 and 10 speed
cassettes, I sometimes wonder why have more than one chainring anymore.
What really gets me is how the 10sp cassettes have no wider range than the
8 or 9. It would be nice to have that 16t cog though...

Matt O.

frkrygow said:

Sounds like you're a complete sucker for marketing!

Do you _really_ think adding another cog makes you that much faster? Do
you _really_ think anything below the "most the market can bear" price
is junk?

Both ideas are silly.

Yes, but Americans are silly. The appeal with high end bikes is that
they're everyman's bling. We can't afford McClarens and Ferraris, or half
million dollar racing sailboats; but even grad students can somehow
afford $5000 Madones, $2000 carbon aero wheels, and other such exotica.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

What really gets me is how the 10sp cassettes have no wider range than the
8 or 9. It would be nice to have that 16t cog though...

No need for wider range cassettes with 10 speed. That is what triples
are for. The extra cogs in the usable range is the beauty of 10 speed.
Take the wonderful 10 speed Campagnolo Veloce cassettes for instance.
Veloce are loose cogs and spacers.

13-26 cassette is 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26. You get a 7 cog wide
corn cob where you spend 99% of your riding time plus some lower gears.
And you can easily replace the 26 cog with a 28 cog from QBP or a 28
or 29 cog from a discarded old Veloce 9 or 10 speed cogset. Campagnolo
9 and 10 speed cogs are the same thickness, just the spacers changed.
Then you get 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-29.

12-23 cassette is 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23. You get an 8 cog wide
corn cob in the usable gears plus some sort of lower cogs. Let me
repeat you get 8 consecutive cogs with 1 tooth difference. But you can
also toss out the 23 cog and put on a 26 cog from a discareded 9 or 10
speed Veloce cogset. So you would end up with
12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-26. 26 cog is fairly low.

With 10 speed you no longer have to choose between tightly spaced corn
cob gears and bigger climbing gears. You can have both at the same
time. I currently run a 9 speed Campagnolo cassette with
13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-28. The short cage Chorus rear derailleur
easily handles the 5 tooth jump between the last cogs.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The top three groups of both Shimano (Dura-Ace, Ultegra, 105)

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Campagnolo (Record, Chorus, Centaur) are all 10 speed. In

other words,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

anything halfway decent that you'd want on your bike is 10

speed.

Quoted message said:

Sounds like you're a complete sucker for marketing!

Do you _really_ think adding another cog makes you that much

faster?

Quoted message said:

Do you _really_ think anything below the "most the market can

bear"

Quoted message said:

price is junk?

Both ideas are silly.

Another tooth may make you faster -- if being comfortable in a
gear makes you faster, which, IMO, it does. Not that I am
advocating for a million-gear cassette, but there have been times
I wished for a 20 or a 22 or whatever other in-between gear I was
missing at the time -- or an extra gear at the top or bottom end.
This mostly occurred in races or when I was being pushed hard on
a ride. The real question is whether having an in-between gear
or an extra gear is worth the expense of 10 speed and the
shortened chain and cassette life. For me, it is not. -- Jay
Beattie.

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What really gets me is how the 10sp cassettes have no wider range
than the 8 or 9. It would be nice to have that 16t cog though...

No need for wider range cassettes with 10 speed. That is what triples
are for. The extra cogs in the usable range is the beauty of 10
speed. Take the wonderful 10 speed Campagnolo Veloce cassettes for
instance. Veloce are loose cogs and spacers.

13-26 cassette is 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26.

[snip] Then you get 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-29.

Quoted message said:

12-23 cassette is 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23.

[snip] So you would end up with > 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-26.

Quoted message said:

With 10 speed you no longer have to choose between tightly spaced corn
cob gears and bigger climbing gears. You can have both at the same
time. I currently run a 9 speed Campagnolo cassette with
13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-28. The short cage Chorus rear derailleur
easily handles the 5 tooth jump between the last cogs.

I agree, and I think that the objection to 10V systems is from those who
don't want to go especially fast. That's OK, but so is a 5V, covering most
of their used range, like a 14-26 I had decades ago. But in competition,
the gaps between gears mean big changes in effort and or cadence, neither of
which improves effective pedaling.

The one effect I find disorienting, is I can't quickly see the gear I'm in.
With 9V, you could always see the middle. 🙂
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

Sandy said:

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What really gets me is how the 10sp cassettes have no wider range
than the 8 or 9. It would be nice to have that 16t cog though...

No need for wider range cassettes with 10 speed. That is what triples
are for. The extra cogs in the usable range is the beauty of 10
speed. Take the wonderful 10 speed Campagnolo Veloce cassettes for
instance. Veloce are loose cogs and spacers.

13-26 cassette is 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26.

[snip] Then you get 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-29.

Quoted message said:

12-23 cassette is 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23.

[snip] So you would end up with > 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-26.

Quoted message said:

With 10 speed you no longer have to choose between tightly spaced corn
cob gears and bigger climbing gears. You can have both at the same
time. I currently run a 9 speed Campagnolo cassette with
13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-28. The short cage Chorus rear derailleur
easily handles the 5 tooth jump between the last cogs.

I agree, and I think that the objection to 10V systems is from those who
don't want to go especially fast. That's OK, but so is a 5V, covering most
of their used range, like a 14-26 I had decades ago. But in competition,
the gaps between gears mean big changes in effort and or cadence, neither of
which improves effective pedaling.

The one effect I find disorienting, is I can't quickly see the gear I'm in.
With 9V, you could always see the middle. 🙂

Indeed. I changed from 9v Chorus to 10v Record last week and when I look
down I get *two* "middles". So now I have to shift based on what my legs
tell me instead of what my eyes tell me ;-)

And then two days ago we got snow so the learning process has been
lengthened.

But what I do see about 10v that I really like, compared to 9v, is the
possibility of having both close gearing and a small bit of overlap
between what the big and small rings offer, without too much
cross-chaining. My rings are 53-39.

The Veloce I use is 14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22-23. Fine on hills as long
as you use 177,5 cranks.

/Robert

Jay Beattie said:

Quoted message said:

Both ideas are silly.

Another tooth may make you faster -- if being comfortable in a
gear makes you faster, which, IMO, it does. Not that I am
advocating for a million-gear cassette, but there have been times
I wished for a 20 or a 22 or whatever other in-between gear I was
missing at the time -- or an extra gear at the top or bottom end.
This mostly occurred in races or when I was being pushed hard on
a ride. The real question is whether having an in-between gear
or an extra gear is worth the expense of 10 speed and the
shortened chain and cassette life.

Why do you think the a 10 speed chain and cassette have a shortened
life? It's not my experience. My nine speed cassette and chain has the
shortest lifetime.......because they are on my MTB. My 10 speed stuff on
my road bike last as long as my 9 speed stuff before that.

Lou

--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

Lou Holtman said:

Jay Beattie said:

Quoted message said:

Both ideas are silly.

Another tooth may make you faster -- if being comfortable in a
gear makes you faster, which, IMO, it does. Not that I am
advocating for a million-gear cassette, but there have been times
I wished for a 20 or a 22 or whatever other in-between gear I was
missing at the time -- or an extra gear at the top or bottom end.
This mostly occurred in races or when I was being pushed hard on
a ride. The real question is whether having an in-between gear
or an extra gear is worth the expense of 10 speed and the
shortened chain and cassette life.

Why do you think the a 10 speed chain and cassette have a shortened
life? It's not my experience. My nine speed cassette and chain has the
shortest lifetime.......because they are on my MTB. My 10 speed stuff on
my road bike last as long as my 9 speed stuff before that.

Lou

Agree. Chain and cogset life for 10s is samo as 9s..

Quoted message said:

But what I do see about 10v that I really like, compared to 9v, is the
possibility of having both close gearing and a small bit of overlap
between what the big and small rings offer, without too much
cross-chaining. My rings are 53-39.

Agreed. I have a 12-25 10s cassette whereas my old 12-25 8s cassette with
2-tooth jumps would throw my cadence completely off, especially during time
trials where optimal cadence is paramount. I never felt comfortable on that
bike because I'd have to rock my hips a lot when I shouldn't have been.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Werehatrack said:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:29:26 -0500, "smiles" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

road group and not just chains and cassettes??

IMO, it's precisely because $himano has done such a stunning job of
propagandizing the market about the Need To Have The Whole Group. I'm
guessing that SRAM decided it was easier to just take the extra money
and not have to spend any time explaining that the customer doesn't
need that other stuff.

I think SRAM saw the hole in the future market (low-cost road groups) and
decided to take the plunge, starting with a high end group. They've bought
up so many companies already that it's becoming a decent conglomerate.

As I've said before a couple of years ago before SRAM even announced their
entry into the road group market, the vast majority of the prohibitive cost
of road bikes is due to the componentry. SRAM is likely going to be able to
undercut Shimagnolo by quite a bit, especially with the use of "carbon
composite" plastic bits. That means bike manufacturers can spec their
entry-level bikes at an even lower price point (<$550) or spec their mid-end
bikes at entry-level price points. Adjusted for inflation, of course.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

I think SRAM saw the hole in the future market (low-cost road groups) and
decided to take the plunge, starting with a high end group. They've bought
up so many companies already that it's becoming a decent conglomerate.

It remains to be seen how low cost the SRAM road group will be. It
looks like they'll have two shifters with alloy or carbon levers. Will
the alloy versions be in competition with the now overpriced Ultegra or
with 105? Their rear derailleur appears to be X.0 level and will likely
have a commensurate price. Anyone willing to use an MTB long cage on a
triple could try to find a cheap ESP RD, though. Their 9-speed
cassettes are already overpriced in parity with Shimano. SRAM has a lot
of room to undercut Shimano on the obscene 10-speed cassette pricing
but I'm sure the big S will drop prices when they get some real
competition there.