Heras confirmed positive

"matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US) are
clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a period of
time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let them tell what
they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might then be worth.
Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or finding by
circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend the team
management for a significant period of time.

matabala said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Sad.
http://us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20051125/capt.ba81411251806.spain_cycling_ba814.jpg

Suggestively hangs his head:
http://us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20051125/capt.ba81211251746.spain_cycling_heras_ba812.jpg

More: http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=heras&c=news_photos

--
E. Dronkert

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US)

are

Quoted message said:

clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a period

of

Quoted message said:

time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let them tell what
they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might then be worth.
Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or finding by
circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend the team
management for a significant period of time.

maybe the riders salary should be held in trust until the end of the year,
money to be forfeit if they test positive at any time during the year;
riders should be sued if future tests prove positive

Laz

Ewoud Dronkert said:

matabala said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Sad.
http://us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20051125/capt.ba81411251806.spain_cycling_ba814.jpg

Suggestively hangs his head:
http://us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20051125/capt.ba81211251746.spain_cycling_heras_ba812.jpg

Or he is checking his watch...

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US)
are clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a
period of time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let them
tell what they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might then be
worth. Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or finding by
circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend the team
management for a significant period of time.

Heavier punishments have never diminished the crime rate. The only thing
which is really effective is to increase the chance to be caught. And since
the risks to be caught in cycling are still very small - poor Heras had bad
luck, a bad doctor or both - any anti-doping policy will fail.

Benjo

B. Lafferty said:

"matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US) are
clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a period of
time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let them tell what
they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might then be worth.
Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or finding by
circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend the team
management for a significant period of time.

You've gone soft. I guess it happens, with age.

Ewoud Dronkert said:

matabala said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Sad.
http://us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20051125/capt.ba81411251806.spain_cycling_ba814.jpg

Suggestively hangs his head:
http://us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20051125/capt.ba81211251746.spain_cycling_heras_ba812.jpg

More: http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=heras&c=news_photos

So, what's this one about?
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/051125/ids_photos_wl/r512365226.jpg

Near as I can tell, he's got his weiner stuck in his zipper.

On 11/25/05 4:11 PM, in article
[email hidden], "Tim Lines" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ewoud Dronkert said:

matabala said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Sad.

us.i2.yimg.comcapt.ba81411251806.spain cycling ba814.jp>>Open ↗
g

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Suggestively hangs his head:
http://us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20051125/capt.ba81211251746.spain_cycling_heras_ba
812.jpg

More: http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=heras&c=news_photos

So, what's this one about?
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/051125/ids_photos_wl/r512365226.jpg

Near as I can tell, he's got his weiner stuck in his zipper.

http://www.reelwavs.com/movies/theres_something_about_mary/aboutmary6.wav

"Tim Lines" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

"matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US)
are clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a
period of time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let
them tell what they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might
then be worth. Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or
finding by circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend
the team management for a significant period of time.

You've gone soft. I guess it happens, with age.

Drugs.

B. Lafferty said:

"Tim Lines" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

"matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US)
are clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a
period of time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let
them tell what they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might
then be worth. Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or
finding by circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend
the team management for a significant period of time.

You've gone soft. I guess it happens, with age.

Drugs.

And drugs are also the solution. I'll forward some of my spam to you.

"Tim Lines" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

"Tim Lines" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty wrote:

>"matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>
>
>>http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html
>
>
>Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US)
>are clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a
>period of time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let
>them tell what they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might
>then be worth. Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or
>finding by circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend
>the team management for a significant period of time.

You've gone soft. I guess it happens, with age.

Drugs.

And drugs are also the solution. I'll forward some of my spam to you.

Better living through chemistry, to coin a phrase.

B. Lafferty said:

"matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US) are
clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a period of
time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let them tell what
they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might then be worth.
Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or finding by
circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend the team
management for a significant period of time.

Damn, I thought I was the resident fascist! I agree with you that they
need to declare an amnesty, take a time out from the flawed testing,
fix their credibility by fixing the testing, but, Damn, lifetime for
circumstantial evidence? I don't know any cops or prosecutors I'd trust
even close to that much, but I'm also the resident sceptic right? I'm
proud of that last bit.
Bill C

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

"matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US)
are
clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a period
of
time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let them tell
what
they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might then be worth.
Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or finding by
circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend the team
management for a significant period of time.

Damn, I thought I was the resident fascist! I agree with you that they
need to declare an amnesty, take a time out from the flawed testing,
fix their credibility by fixing the testing, but, Damn, lifetime for
circumstantial evidence? I don't know any cops or prosecutors I'd trust
even close to that much, but I'm also the resident sceptic right? I'm
proud of that last bit.
Bill C

I don't have a problem with a fully independent jury or panel of arbiters
deciding by a preponderance of the evidence that a rider was doping. People
go to prison on completely circumstantial cases (with a higher burden of
proof, of course) all the time. It's not a perfect system. Hell, I
anticipate the opening of H&H Cycles with shops in Marblehead and Girona.

benjo maso said:

Heavier punishments have never diminished the crime rate. The only thing
which is really effective is to increase the chance to be caught. And since
the risks to be caught in cycling are still very small - poor Heras had bad
luck, a bad doctor or both - any anti-doping policy will fail.

The riders and the sport are given bad press, which more fairly belongs
to agencies that make rules that can't be enforced fairly. Nevermind
the sponsors fleeing...

Moratorium? Good start. Find a positive? (no matter how many readings
you need!) Take the result away, take the money away, go on to the next
race.

Wonderful Yahoo News headline, no further comment:

<Heras shows doping methods work, says Vuelta director>

Also today in the Yahoo news inre Bode Miller:

<Miller believes he been marked out for special treatment since
suggesting in a Ski Racing magazine article in October that drug rules
should be relaxed to help improve athlete safety.

<International Ski Federation (FIS) president Gian Franco Kasper, who
is also a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency's (WADA) executive
board, had warned Miller that he might face more frequent testing
because of his remarks.>

Well, if he isn't doping, he doesn't have anything to worry about,
correct? Just the pants down thing every weekend (or more), no problemo
there... --D-y

Laz said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US)

are

Quoted message said:

clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a period

of

Quoted message said:

time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let them tell what
they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might then be worth.
Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or finding by
circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend the team
management for a significant period of time.

Quoted message said:

maybe the riders salary should be held in trust until the end of the year,
money to be forfeit if they test positive at any time during the year;
riders should be sued if future tests prove positive

Riders should be sued? By whom? The public? [censored] Pound?
Other riders? If a golfer takes a drop he isn't entitled to
(I think that's the phrase - I don't golf) they kick him out
of the tournament, but they don't SUE him.

At least Lafferty's proposal involved some financial penalties
for the team management. Under your idea, the team management
wins both ways. If the guy dopes and doesn't get caught it's
good for the results. If the guy gets caught, they wash their
hands of him and don't have to pay out any salary. If the
sponsor bails, it sucks, but the team management signs on with
a new sponsor. (This has already happened many times.) The
only way the team loses is if the guy doesn't dope, doesn't
get any results, but they still have to pay his salary.

I generally assume the riders dope not because they want to but
because they feel pressure to produce. There are plenty of
anecdotes about team management dropping hints to riders. If
you want to go on a radical cleanup of the sport, you gotta
take this into account. Otherwise after you fire the first
batch of dopers the teams and their hench-doctors will already
be developing the next crop.

On 26 Nov 2005 12:22:40 -0800, "Bill C" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

"matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US) are
clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a period of
time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let them tell what
they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might then be worth.
Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or finding by
circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend the team
management for a significant period of time.

Damn, I thought I was the resident fascist! I agree with you that they
need to declare an amnesty, take a time out from the flawed testing,
fix their credibility by fixing the testing, but, Damn, lifetime for
circumstantial evidence? I don't know any cops or prosecutors I'd trust
even close to that much, but I'm also the resident sceptic right? I'm
proud of that last bit.
Bill C

Anything lacking at least one case that results in summary execution
will simply not hold up over time. Vlad the Impaler would know what to
do with [censored] Pound. Really, really simplifies the appeal process as
well.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

B. Lafferty said:

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

"matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html

Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans (US)
are
clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a period
of
time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let them tell
what
they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might then be worth.
Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or finding by
circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend the team
management for a significant period of time.

Damn, I thought I was the resident fascist! I agree with you that they
need to declare an amnesty, take a time out from the flawed testing,
fix their credibility by fixing the testing, but, Damn, lifetime for
circumstantial evidence? I don't know any cops or prosecutors I'd trust
even close to that much, but I'm also the resident sceptic right? I'm
proud of that last bit.
Bill C

I don't have a problem with a fully independent jury or panel of arbiters
deciding by a preponderance of the evidence that a rider was doping. People
go to prison on completely circumstantial cases (with a higher burden of
proof, of course) all the time. It's not a perfect system. Hell, I
anticipate the opening of H&H Cycles with shops in Marblehead and Girona.

The problem here Brian is that the people gathering and putting this
evidence together have no external review board, riders can not get
subpeonas to force them to disclose methods and procedures, etc...This
is still Daryl Gates except now his little organization is now
investigator, prosecutor, judge, and both internal affairs and any
external review panel.
Until there is a way to force the UCI and Wada to provide complete and
totally transparent verification of it's methods and procedures I'm
going to keep [censored] about Kangaroo Courts.
Bill C

Bill C said:

Until there is a way to force the UCI and Wada to provide complete and
totally transparent verification of it's methods and procedures I'm
going to keep [censored] about Kangaroo Courts.
Bill C

The day that the methods and procedures become totally transparent will
also be the day the doctors and riders develop ways around the tests,
thus rendering the tests useless.

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty wrote:
> "matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > http://lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051125_163141Dev.html
>
> Very sad, but of course the test is flawed as usual. Only Americans
> (US)
> are
> clean (sarcasm now off). They will never shut the sport down for a
> period
> of
> time so I think it's time to declare a general amnesty, let them tell
> what
> they've done and keep their wins for whatever they might then be
> worth.
> Then make it a lifetime ban on the first positive or finding by
> circumstantial evidence that a rider has doped. Also suspend the team
> management for a significant period of time.

Damn, I thought I was the resident fascist! I agree with you that they
need to declare an amnesty, take a time out from the flawed testing,
fix their credibility by fixing the testing, but, Damn, lifetime for
circumstantial evidence? I don't know any cops or prosecutors I'd trust
even close to that much, but I'm also the resident sceptic right? I'm
proud of that last bit.
Bill C

I don't have a problem with a fully independent jury or panel of arbiters
deciding by a preponderance of the evidence that a rider was doping.
People
go to prison on completely circumstantial cases (with a higher burden of
proof, of course) all the time. It's not a perfect system. Hell, I
anticipate the opening of H&H Cycles with shops in Marblehead and Girona.

The problem here Brian is that the people gathering and putting this
evidence together have no external review board, riders can not get
subpeonas to force them to disclose methods and procedures, etc...This
is still Daryl Gates except now his little organization is now
investigator, prosecutor, judge, and both internal affairs and any
external review panel.

Not at all. I'm talking about a due process administrative trial in which
witnesses can be subpoened to testify and be cross-examined. If you have
three guys who testify under oath that they provided and helped Rider X to
blood dope with a transfuion and they are credible, there should be no need
for a positive.

Quoted message said:

Until there is a way to force the UCI and Wada to provide complete and
totally transparent verification of it's methods and procedures I'm
going to keep [censored] about Kangaroo Courts.

There is such a way and it's CAS.

Quoted message said:

Bill C