General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

More evidence that supports the points I've made here.

Started by montygram · · Last activity · 17 posts · 531 views

This thread is locked and is currently read-only.

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
9 November 2005
Last activity
16 November 2005
Original author
montygram
Posts
17
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
531
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–17 of 17
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Here's a report from www.sciencedaily.com yesterday. Notice how the
    scientists talks about how SOD gets turned on by the gene they
    discovered. I've been criticized for saying that the evidence suggests
    that old people who are in excellent health have low SOD and high
    vitamin E, whereas middle age people in poor shape have low E and high
    SOD levels. This report is confirmatory, in that when the body is
    stressed by lipid peroxidation, for example, an attempt is made to
    produce more SOD, but if not enough of the trace mineral, in this case
    manganese, is present, massive damage will likely occur. Having to
    produce more SOD is a burden, but even worse is that it only leads to a
    less dangerous radical, thus there will still be more free radical
    damage than is necessary.

    My interpretations are based on the most reasonable way to look at the
    evidence, and many scientists share these ideas, though a lot of them
    don't understand how dangerous the highly unsaturated oils can be,
    because specialization means that they only read a small percentage of
    the studies that are relevant, and most don't have much of a background
    in nutrition.

    Also yesterday on sciencedaily.com was a report there was a report
    about CLA, which is trans fat found naturally in dairy products that
    has antioxidant properties. Why? Because saturated fatty acids
    interfere with free radical reactions.
    Here's a quotation from that report:
    Cook's team determined that one of the variants [of CLA] inhibits the
    COX-2 protein by blocking a key cellular pathway. The COX-2 protein is
    known to play a significant role in many inflammatory diseases and is
    an important drug target for treating arthritis and cancer, Cook says.
    But with no arachidonic acid in your body, there's no COX-2.
    Another quotation is interested, because it bespeaks of the problem
    that often occurs when there is excess biochemical activity:
    "In animal agriculture, you can see as much as a five to ten percent
    difference in weight at a given age in a growing animal because a
    secondary effect of immune response is that it suppresses growth," Cook
    says. The immune system protects the body by fighting disease, but the
    defense comes at a price, Cook says, including inflammation, muscle
    wasting and loss of appetite.
    The title of that report is "A Fatty Acid Found In Milk May Help
    Control Inflammatory Diseases."
    Remember, without excess arachidonic acid in your body, there is no
    problem with "inflammation."

    11/8/2005
    Anti-aging Hormone Reduces Reactive Oxygen Species
    Scientists recently discovered an anti-aging hormone called Klotho.
    Now, a new study shows that this protein acts by increasing the cell's
    ability to detoxify harmful reactive oxygen species. The research
    appears as the "Paper of the Week" in the November 11 issue of the
    Journal of Biological Chemistry, an American Society for Biochemistry
    and Molecular Biology journal.
    The klotho gene named after the Greek goddess who spins life's thread,
    is associated with preventing aging in mammals. The klotho gene
    product, or Klotho protein, is secreted in the blood and functions as
    an anti-aging hormone. A defect in the klotho gene in mice leads to a
    syndrome closely resembling human aging, while overexpression of the
    gene extends lifespan in mice.
    Now Makoto Kuro-o, assistant professor of pathology at the University
    of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, has discovered one way
    in which Klotho extends lifespan. Using both cultured cells and
    transgenic mice, the researchers showed that Klotho increases
    resistance to oxidative stress.
    "Increased longevity is always associated with increased resistance to
    oxidative stress," explains Kuro-o. "Oxidative stress causes the
    accumulation of oxidative damage to important biological macromolecules
    such as DNA, lipids, and proteins that would result in functional
    deterioration of the cell, which eventually causes aging."
    "In this study," says Kuro-o, "we propose that Klotho does its job by
    increasing the ability of the cell to detoxify harmful reactive oxygen
    species, thereby increasing resistance to oxidative stress of the
    body." The protein acts by turning on an enzyme called manganese
    superoxide dismutase. This enzyme, found in the mitochondria of the
    cell, then hydrolyzes harmful superoxide into less harmful hydrogen
    peroxide.
    This research may eventually lead to the development of anti-aging
    drugs, a long-standing goal of many pharmaceutical companies. "We
    showed that the anti-aging hormone Klotho confers resistance to
    oxidative stress in cells and animals," says Kuro-o. "This means that
    Klotho protein itself or small molecule mimetics may be potentially
    useful as anti-aging medicines."

  2. montygram said:

    Here's a report from www.sciencedaily.com yesterday. Notice how the
    scientists talks about how SOD gets turned on by the gene they
    discovered. I've been criticized for saying that the evidence suggests
    that old people who are in excellent health have low SOD and high
    vitamin E, whereas middle age people in poor shape have low E and high
    SOD levels.

    "Poor shape" is another example of your molecular level of detail is
    it? Sounds a lot like you're using SOD levels as some sort of marker
    too.

    Quoted message said:

    Having to
    produce more SOD is a burden, but even worse is that it only leads to a
    less dangerous radical, thus there will still be more free radical
    damage than is necessary.

    SOD makes hydrogen peroxide and molecular oxygen, neither of which are
    radicals.

    Quoted message said:

    Also yesterday on sciencedaily.com was a report there was a report
    about CLA, which is trans fat found naturally in dairy products that
    has antioxidant properties. Why? Because saturated fatty acids
    interfere with free radical reactions.

    Yeesh. How many times do you need to be told that trans fats are
    unsaturated?

    Quoted message said:

    "In this study," says Kuro-o, "we propose that Klotho does its job by
    increasing the ability of the cell to detoxify harmful reactive oxygen
    species, thereby increasing resistance to oxidative stress of the
    body." The protein acts by turning on an enzyme called manganese
    superoxide dismutase. This enzyme, found in the mitochondria of the
    cell, then hydrolyzes harmful superoxide into less harmful hydrogen
    peroxide.

    Why are you quoting this when it directly opposes your initial claim
    that high SOD is associated with being in poor shape? Or hadn't you
    noticed?

    MattLB

  3. 9 Nov 2005 02:06:44 -0800 in article
    <[email hidden]> "montygram"

    Quoted message said:


    Also yesterday on sciencedaily.com was a report there was a report
    about CLA, which is trans fat found naturally in dairy products that
    has antioxidant properties. Why? Because saturated fatty acids
    interfere with free radical reactions.

    CLA is PUFA not SFA. And FYI, CLA promotes insulin resistance in obese men,
    see

    Riserus U, Vessby B, Arnlov J, Basu S.
    Effects of cis-9,trans-11 conjugated linoleic acid supplementation on
    insulin sensitivity, lipid peroxidation, and proinflammatory markers in
    obese men.
    Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Aug;80(2):279-83.
    PMID: 15277146 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15277146>
    <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/80/2/279>

    "We recently showed that trans-10,cis-12 (t10,c12) conjugated linoleic
    acid (CLA) causes insulin resistance in obese men."

    [...]

    CONCLUSIONS: A CLA preparation containing the purified
    c9,t11 CLA isomer increased insulin resistance and lipid
    peroxidation compared with placebo in obese men. Because
    c9,t11 CLA occurs in commercial supplements as well as in
    the diet, the present results should be confirmed in
    larger studies that also include women."

    Riserus U, Arner P, Brismar K, Vessby B.
    Treatment with dietary trans10cis12 conjugated linoleic acid causes
    isomer-specific insulin resistance in obese men with the metabolic syndrome.
    Diabetes Care 2002;25:1516–21.
    <http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/9/1516>

    "These results reveal important isomer-specific
    metabolic actions of CLA in abdominally obese humans. A
    CLA-induced insulin resistance has previously been
    described only in lipodystrophic mice. Considering the
    use of CLA-supplements among obese individuals, it is
    important to clarify the clinical consequences of these
    results, but they also provide physiological insights
    into the role of specific dietary fatty acids as
    modulators of insulin resistance in humans."

    Larsen TM, Toubro S, Astrup A.
    Efficacy and safety of dietary supplements containing CLA for the treatment
    of obesity: evidence from animal and human studies.
    J Lipid Res. 2003 Dec;44(12):2234-41. Epub 2003 Aug 16. Review.
    PMID: 12923219 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12923219>
    <http://www.jlr.org/cgi/content/full/44/12/2234>

    "In conclusion, although CLA appears to attenuate increases in body
    weight and body fat in several animal models, CLA isomers sold as
    dietary supplements are not effective as weight loss agents in humans
    and may actually have adverse effects on human health."

    Chung S, Brown JM, Provo JN, Hopkins R, McIntosh MK.
    Conjugated linoleic acid promotes human adipocyte insulin resistance through
    NFkappaB-dependent cytokine production.
    J Biol Chem. 2005 Sep 9; [Epub ahead of print]
    PMID: 16155293 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
    <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16155293>
    <http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/M508159200v1>
    <http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/M508159200v1>

    "Collectively, these data demonstrate for the first time
    that trans-10, cis-12 CLA promotes NFB activation and
    subsequent induction of IL-6 which are, at least in part,
    responsible for trans-10, cis-12 CLA-mediated suppression
    of PPAR target gene expression and insulin sensitivity in
    mature human adipocytes."

    --
    Matti Narkia

  4. You know, sometimes you just have to be happy to make your point and
    then leave it at that. Repeating, ad nauseum, the same erroneous
    statement does not make it any more correct.

    TC

    montygram said:

    Here's a report from www.sciencedaily.com yesterday. Notice how the
    scientists talks about how SOD gets turned on by the gene they
    discovered. I've been criticized for saying that the evidence suggests
    that old people who are in excellent health have low SOD and high
    vitamin E, whereas middle age people in poor shape have low E and high
    SOD levels. This report is confirmatory, in that when the body is
    stressed by lipid peroxidation, for example, an attempt is made to
    produce more SOD, but if not enough of the trace mineral, in this case
    manganese, is present, massive damage will likely occur. Having to
    produce more SOD is a burden, but even worse is that it only leads to a
    less dangerous radical, thus there will still be more free radical
    damage than is necessary.

    My interpretations are based on the most reasonable way to look at the
    evidence, and many scientists share these ideas, though a lot of them
    don't understand how dangerous the highly unsaturated oils can be,
    because specialization means that they only read a small percentage of
    the studies that are relevant, and most don't have much of a background
    in nutrition.

    Also yesterday on sciencedaily.com was a report there was a report
    about CLA, which is trans fat found naturally in dairy products that
    has antioxidant properties. Why? Because saturated fatty acids
    interfere with free radical reactions.
    Here's a quotation from that report:
    Cook's team determined that one of the variants [of CLA] inhibits the
    COX-2 protein by blocking a key cellular pathway. The COX-2 protein is
    known to play a significant role in many inflammatory diseases and is
    an important drug target for treating arthritis and cancer, Cook says.
    But with no arachidonic acid in your body, there's no COX-2.
    Another quotation is interested, because it bespeaks of the problem
    that often occurs when there is excess biochemical activity:
    "In animal agriculture, you can see as much as a five to ten percent
    difference in weight at a given age in a growing animal because a
    secondary effect of immune response is that it suppresses growth," Cook
    says. The immune system protects the body by fighting disease, but the
    defense comes at a price, Cook says, including inflammation, muscle
    wasting and loss of appetite.
    The title of that report is "A Fatty Acid Found In Milk May Help
    Control Inflammatory Diseases."
    Remember, without excess arachidonic acid in your body, there is no
    problem with "inflammation."

    11/8/2005
    Anti-aging Hormone Reduces Reactive Oxygen Species
    Scientists recently discovered an anti-aging hormone called Klotho.
    Now, a new study shows that this protein acts by increasing the cell's
    ability to detoxify harmful reactive oxygen species. The research
    appears as the "Paper of the Week" in the November 11 issue of the
    Journal of Biological Chemistry, an American Society for Biochemistry
    and Molecular Biology journal.
    The klotho gene named after the Greek goddess who spins life's thread,
    is associated with preventing aging in mammals. The klotho gene
    product, or Klotho protein, is secreted in the blood and functions as
    an anti-aging hormone. A defect in the klotho gene in mice leads to a
    syndrome closely resembling human aging, while overexpression of the
    gene extends lifespan in mice.
    Now Makoto Kuro-o, assistant professor of pathology at the University
    of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, has discovered one way
    in which Klotho extends lifespan. Using both cultured cells and
    transgenic mice, the researchers showed that Klotho increases
    resistance to oxidative stress.
    "Increased longevity is always associated with increased resistance to
    oxidative stress," explains Kuro-o. "Oxidative stress causes the
    accumulation of oxidative damage to important biological macromolecules
    such as DNA, lipids, and proteins that would result in functional
    deterioration of the cell, which eventually causes aging."
    "In this study," says Kuro-o, "we propose that Klotho does its job by
    increasing the ability of the cell to detoxify harmful reactive oxygen
    species, thereby increasing resistance to oxidative stress of the
    body." The protein acts by turning on an enzyme called manganese
    superoxide dismutase. This enzyme, found in the mitochondria of the
    cell, then hydrolyzes harmful superoxide into less harmful hydrogen
    peroxide.
    This research may eventually lead to the development of anti-aging
    drugs, a long-standing goal of many pharmaceutical companies. "We
    showed that the anti-aging hormone Klotho confers resistance to
    oxidative stress in cells and animals," says Kuro-o. "This means that
    Klotho protein itself or small molecule mimetics may be potentially
    useful as anti-aging medicines."

  5. Dare I ask, what is SOD?

    Laying out a new lawn?

    Soup Of the Day?

    "montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Here's a report from www.sciencedaily.com yesterday. Notice how the
    scientists talks about how SOD gets turned on by the gene they
    discovered. I've been criticized for saying that the evidence suggests
    that old people who are in excellent health have low SOD and high
    vitamin E, whereas middle age people in poor shape have low E and high
    SOD levels. This report is confirmatory, in that when the body is
    stressed by lipid peroxidation, for example, an attempt is made to
    produce more SOD, but if not enough of the trace mineral, in this case
    manganese, is present, massive damage will likely occur. Having to
    produce more SOD is a burden, but even worse is that it only leads to a
    less dangerous radical, thus there will still be more free radical
    damage than is necessary.

    My interpretations are based on the most reasonable way to look at the
    evidence, and many scientists share these ideas, though a lot of them
    don't understand how dangerous the highly unsaturated oils can be,
    because specialization means that they only read a small percentage of
    the studies that are relevant, and most don't have much of a background
    in nutrition.

    Also yesterday on sciencedaily.com was a report there was a report
    about CLA, which is trans fat found naturally in dairy products that
    has antioxidant properties. Why? Because saturated fatty acids
    interfere with free radical reactions.
    Here's a quotation from that report:
    Cook's team determined that one of the variants [of CLA] inhibits the
    COX-2 protein by blocking a key cellular pathway. The COX-2 protein is
    known to play a significant role in many inflammatory diseases and is
    an important drug target for treating arthritis and cancer, Cook says.
    But with no arachidonic acid in your body, there's no COX-2.
    Another quotation is interested, because it bespeaks of the problem
    that often occurs when there is excess biochemical activity:
    "In animal agriculture, you can see as much as a five to ten percent
    difference in weight at a given age in a growing animal because a
    secondary effect of immune response is that it suppresses growth," Cook
    says. The immune system protects the body by fighting disease, but the
    defense comes at a price, Cook says, including inflammation, muscle
    wasting and loss of appetite.
    The title of that report is "A Fatty Acid Found In Milk May Help
    Control Inflammatory Diseases."
    Remember, without excess arachidonic acid in your body, there is no
    problem with "inflammation."

    11/8/2005
    Anti-aging Hormone Reduces Reactive Oxygen Species
    Scientists recently discovered an anti-aging hormone called Klotho.
    Now, a new study shows that this protein acts by increasing the cell's
    ability to detoxify harmful reactive oxygen species. The research
    appears as the "Paper of the Week" in the November 11 issue of the
    Journal of Biological Chemistry, an American Society for Biochemistry
    and Molecular Biology journal.
    The klotho gene named after the Greek goddess who spins life's thread,
    is associated with preventing aging in mammals. The klotho gene
    product, or Klotho protein, is secreted in the blood and functions as
    an anti-aging hormone. A defect in the klotho gene in mice leads to a
    syndrome closely resembling human aging, while overexpression of the
    gene extends lifespan in mice.
    Now Makoto Kuro-o, assistant professor of pathology at the University
    of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, has discovered one way
    in which Klotho extends lifespan. Using both cultured cells and
    transgenic mice, the researchers showed that Klotho increases
    resistance to oxidative stress.
    "Increased longevity is always associated with increased resistance to
    oxidative stress," explains Kuro-o. "Oxidative stress causes the
    accumulation of oxidative damage to important biological macromolecules
    such as DNA, lipids, and proteins that would result in functional
    deterioration of the cell, which eventually causes aging."
    "In this study," says Kuro-o, "we propose that Klotho does its job by
    increasing the ability of the cell to detoxify harmful reactive oxygen
    species, thereby increasing resistance to oxidative stress of the
    body." The protein acts by turning on an enzyme called manganese
    superoxide dismutase. This enzyme, found in the mitochondria of the
    cell, then hydrolyzes harmful superoxide into less harmful hydrogen
    peroxide.
    This research may eventually lead to the development of anti-aging
    drugs, a long-standing goal of many pharmaceutical companies. "We
    showed that the anti-aging hormone Klotho confers resistance to
    oxidative stress in cells and animals," says Kuro-o. "This means that
    Klotho protein itself or small molecule mimetics may be potentially
    useful as anti-aging medicines."

  6. "Cubit" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Dare I ask, what is SOD?

    Laying out a new lawn?

    Soup Of the Day?

    Its an enzyme that is part of the body's antioxidative system.
    The name superoxide dismutase (SOD) means it can transform superoxide (an
    oxygen radical) to hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) which, in turn, is converted by
    Peroxidases or catalases to water (and oxygen)- thus making it harmless.

  7. "montygram" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    My interpretations are based on the most reasonable way to look at the
    evidence

    [snip]

    Right, look below how reasonable your look at the evidence is.

    Quoted message said:

    Also yesterday on sciencedaily.com was a report there was a report
    about CLA, which is trans fat found naturally in dairy products that
    has antioxidant properties. Why? Because saturated fatty acids
    interfere with free radical reactions.

    1) A trans fat is NOT a saturated fatty acid. This is a basic fact of
    organic chemistry.

    2) CLA is NOT a saturated fatty acid either.
    CLA = Conjugated linoleic acid. Does that tell you something?

    Look here if it doesn't
    http://www.csuchico.edu/agr/grsfdbef/health-benefits/CLA%20structure.png

    [snip]

  8. MMu said:
    Quoted message said:

    Also yesterday on sciencedaily.com was a report there was a report
    about CLA, which is trans fat found naturally in dairy products that
    has antioxidant properties. Why? Because saturated fatty acids
    interfere with free radical reactions.

    1) A trans fat is NOT a saturated fatty acid. This is a basic fact of
    organic chemistry.

    2) CLA is NOT a saturated fatty acid either.
    CLA = Conjugated linoleic acid. Does that tell you something?

    Monty just called CLA a trans-fatty acid!!! Ha, ... Hah, Ha! Monty
    were you drunk, or are you just insane?

    Life is messy. HDL can be divided into HDL1, HDL2, HDL3. Should you
    concentrate raising your your HDL3 levels while lowering HDL1s, Monty?
    Only if you are nuts, like Monty obviously is.

    Eating only SFs is a dietary extreme, that is obviously wrong. MUFAs is
    the fat that you should be concentrating on. It is in the middle.
    Anybody who tries to break MUFAs down fatty acid by fatty acid has too
    much time on their hands.

    Just my opinion, but non-kooks are never wrong because we are always in
    the middle. 🙂

  9. "TC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    You know, sometimes you just have to be happy to make your point and
    then leave it at that. Repeating, ad nauseum, the same erroneous
    statement does not make it any more correct.

    You are criticizing him for this? Look who's call the kettle black. You
    two are so much alike that I wonder if you are clones, less a few
    crayons, but using different ID's.

    -DF

  10. montygram said:

    The point about trans fats by MattLB makes no sense. He will have to
    be clear. With trans fat, at least one of the double carbon bonds in
    an unsaturated fatty acid is "filled in" and no longer susceptible
    to in vivo lipid peroxidation.

    So it's gone from say a PUFA to a MUFA, but it's still not an SFA,
    which is what you said it was. Trans fatty acids are *always*
    unsaturated.

    Quoted message said:

    It is true that some of the double
    bonds in a PUFA may be more susceptible to lipid peroxidation because
    the process that created the trans fatty acid may have removed the
    antioxidant cover. This is why CLA is considered "good" by some
    "experts,' whether they understand it or not - that is, the
    natural product that contains CLA has not been put through the same
    kind of refining process that something like margarine with trans fatty
    acids has been.

    You don't think pasteurisation is worse than simply bubbling hydrogen
    through a plant oil then?

    Quoted message said:

    Some of the "bad effects" of CLA only appear when
    cells are subjected to massive amounts

    What concentration is "massive"?

    Quoted message said:

    You can search the group for montygram and read my
    other posts, some of which talk about "trans fat,"

    Yes, and they show you haven't learnt a thing since. You used to say it
    was harmless and just a semantic creation.

    Quoted message said:

    which few
    "experts" define with scientific precision.

    Rubbish. There's only one definition and it's completely precise.

    Quoted message said:

    But MattLB's claim that "trans fat" is
    not saturated makes no sense at all,

    It *isn't* saturated, because there are still double bonds present -
    what could be more sensical than that?

    Quoted message said:

    because you would have no reason
    to hydrogenate an oil if you wanted the properties of highly
    unsaturated oils. The reason they hydrogenate it is to "saturate"
    some of the double bonds so that the oil is thicker, and so resembles
    butter at room temperature, or thereabouts.

    That's partial hydrogenation, which leaves trans fats. Complete
    hydrogentation doesn't.

    Quoted message said:

    Anyone who eats processed
    foods with "trans fat" or anything more than trace amounts of
    unsaturated fat is playing with fire.

    And yet you said on Jan 22nd:

    " I have no problem eating plenty of trans fat"

    Quoted message said:

    It may be a matter of semantics,
    but why MattLB is interested in getting involved in such tedious and
    technical debates when most people just want to know what is healthy to
    eat is an open question, and likely has to do with his psychological
    makeup.

    You can't claim to give "molecular level detail" and yet protest that
    anyone else doing it is being tedious and technical and expect to be
    taken seriously.

    Quoted message said:

    I have a feeling, though, that he may be an "informal"
    shill for a major pharmaceutical company, because the way he fails to
    address the main point, and constantly harps on tangential issues, some
    of which appear to be just semantics,

    You're hilarious with your reversal blindness.

    Quoted message said:

    Now on to the main topic: MattLB states: "Why are you quoting this
    when it directly opposes your initial claim." Again, and unlike
    myself, this person does not explain what his statement means.

    Your initial claim:

    "middle age people in poor shape have low E and high SOD levels."

    The paper you quoted:

    "Klotho increases resistance to oxidative stress...Increased longevity
    is always
    associated with increased resistance to oxidative stress...Klotho does
    its job by
    increasing the ability of the cell to detoxify harmful reactive oxygen
    species, thereby increasing resistance to oxidative stress of the
    body." The protein acts by turning on an enzyme called manganese
    superoxide dismutase..."

    You say: high SOD means poor shape.
    They say: increased longevity is associated with high levels of
    Klotho, which increases SOD.

    Quoted message said:

    MattLB seems to have tremendous difficulty
    "thinking outside the box," and his dismissive attitude, along with
    his apparent lack of scientific curiosity, is a good example of why the
    "war" on cancer, AIDS, etc. were lost long ago,

    Who's dismissive?

    Quoted message said:

    ...Here we report a paradoxical increase of CuZnSOD activity in rat
    intestine after 20 and 40 days of zinc deficiency. The increase of
    CuZnSOD activity is not due to an upregulation of gene expression... A
    significant increase of lipid peroxidation was also observed in
    duodenum and jejunum associated with zinc deficiency... Because
    glutathione peroxidase and catalase activities decreased in zinc
    deficiency, we speculate that the increase in SOD activity may be
    associated with an accumulation of hydrogen peroxide that may activate
    inflammatory molecules, further worsening tissue damage.
    Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1996 Oct;213(1):85-91.

    Quoted message said:

    So what we see from the studies is that terrible damage can be done
    while SOD levels increase.

    Did you notice the bit about needing to have a catalase and GPx
    deficiency as well? Also the first one specifically says it's *not* due
    to an increase in SOD levels. Do you actually read these things you
    cite?

    Quoted message said:

    Why people like MattLB like to nitpick is the
    only unresolved question, though I don't mind it personally because I
    want scientific precision.

    LOL. So it's nitpicking by everyone else, but scientific precision for
    you, is it?

    Quoted message said:

    I do fear, however, that many will be
    "turned off"

    Turned off your unsupported diet ideas because there's nothing to back
    them up and you clearly don't know the detailed science of what you're
    talking about.

    Quoted message said:

    when he makes these points and of course I have to
    clarify, leading to these tedious posts.

    I notice you hardly ever respond directly to my posts. Presumably
    you're hoping I will miss your comments if they're in a reply to
    someone else and it will look from my silence like you were right.

    Quoted message said:

    Here is the information about SOD, hydrogen peroxide, etc:
    "Free Radicals, Types, Sources and Damaging Reactions
    Submitted by Dr. Tamer Fouad, M.D.
    Types of Free Radicals in the body (continued)
    Hydrogen peroxide:
    Hydrogen peroxide is not a free radical

    Which isn't what you said.

    Quoted message said:

    but falls in the category of
    reactive oxygen species. It is an oxidising agent that is not
    particularly reactive but its main significance lies in that it is the
    main source of hydroxyl radicals in the presence of transition metal
    ions (Cheeseman and Slater, 1993).

    i.e. you need free ions before peroxide becomes a problem. On its own
    it just decomposes to water and oxygen.

    Quoted message said:

    It is also involved in the
    production of HOCl by neutrophils.

    i.e. it has a specific biological function

    Quoted message said:

    Source:
    http://www.thedoctorslounge.net/medlounge/articles/freeradicals/freeradicals5.htm

    Quoting from "thedoctorslounge" in the same post you that say:

    "Hopefully, you will realize what a sham the "medicine show" is"

    Not one to shy from hypocrisy, I see.

    MattLB

  11. montygram said:

    Why people like MattLB like to nitpick is the
    only unresolved question, though I don't mind it personally because I
    want scientific precision.

    CLA is what makes coconut oil good for you, so the science says. CLA
    is what makes this form of saturated fat liquid at body temperature.

    Well commonsense alone, Monty, tells me if coconut oil is NOT behaving
    like SFAs are supposed to behave it is obviously acting like a PUFA.
    Therefore, CLA until proved otherwise Dim-Wit is likely to have the
    same negatives as PUFAs do. After all [censored], you have to go fatty acid
    by fatty acid. If CLA acts like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks
    like a duck. It is a duck. 🙂

    But the only thing these coconut oil dumb asses see is oh boy, here is
    my chance to consume as much SFAs as I want to. There is a word for
    this: Idiot.

    Just my opinion, but being in the middle ALWAYS makes you right.

  12. "montygram" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email hidden]...

    twist and turn it like you want to.. a trans fat is not, under any
    circumstances, a saturated fat.

    Definition of saturated fatty acid:

    a.. A fatty acid with no double bonds tween carbon atoms; it holds all of
    the hydrogen that can be attached to the carbon atoms
    webexhibits.org/butter/glossary-sz.html

    a.. Free carboxylic acids containing an alkane chain.
    www.agsci.ubc.ca/fnh/courses/glossary.htm

    a.. a fatty acid carrying the maximum possible number of hydrogen atoms (It
    doesn't have any double bounds). Unsaturated fatty acid: a fatty acid with
    one or more double bounds.
    www.agctr.lsu.edu/Subjects/eatsmart/glossary.htm

    a.. A fatty acid that contains no carbon-carbon double bonds.
    www.hillsdale.edu/AcademicAssociations/Chemistry/science101/gloss4.html

    a.. a fatty acid whose carbon chain cannot absorb any more hydrogen atoms;
    found chiefly in animal fats
    wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    Definition of trans fat:

    A trans fatty acid (commonly shortened to trans fat) is an unsaturated fatty
    acid whose molecules contain trans double bonds between carbon atoms, which
    makes the molecules less kinked compared to those of 'cis fat'.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_fat

    An unsaturated fatty acid produced by the partial hydrogenation of vegetable
    oils and present in hardened vegetable oils, most margarines, commercial
    baked foods, and many fried foods. An excess of these fats in the diet is
    thought to raise the cholesterol level in the bloodstream.
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trans+fatty+acid

    You might want to learn some basics before posting your dangerous
    half-truths and theories.
    ...but i am probably an industry shill for big pharma and its all a big
    conspiracy from the fish oil industry.


  13. Quoted message said:
    montygram said:

    Why people like MattLB like to nitpick is the
    only unresolved question, though I don't mind it personally because I
    want scientific precision.

    CLA is what makes coconut oil good for you, so the science says. CLA
    is what makes this form of saturated fat liquid at body temperature.

    Well commonsense alone, Monty, tells me if coconut oil is NOT behaving
    like SFAs are supposed to behave it is obviously acting like a PUFA.
    Therefore, CLA until proved otherwise Dim-Wit is likely to have the
    same negatives as PUFAs do. After all [censored], you have to go fatty acid
    by fatty acid. If CLA acts like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks
    like a duck. It is a duck. 🙂

    But the only thing these coconut oil dumb asses see is oh boy, here is
    my chance to consume as much SFAs as I want to. There is a word for
    this: Idiot.

    Just my opinion, but being in the middle ALWAYS makes you right.

    Continuing where I left off, Monty 'the janitor in the science building
    of a major university, might want to use his beautiful mind to learn
    some basics before posting his dangerous half-truths and theories.

    Just passing on the truth, this time. 🙂

  14. You are just plain wrong here MMu, regardless of the nonsense you cite.

    For example:

    "When an unsaturated oil is hydrogenated, hydrogen atoms are forced
    into the fatty acid molecules. The hydrogen atoms bind to the carbon
    chain in the vacant double-bonded sites, where only one hydrogen atom
    is attached to the carbon atoms. In so doing the extra hydrogen removes
    the double bond, straightens the chain, and makes the molecule more
    saturated."

    http://www.tfx.org.uk/page32.html

    You are the one playing a dangerous semantic game here, endanging
    peoples' lives. If you take a highly unsaturated oil and fully
    hydrogenate it, all the bonds are "saturated" with hydrogen, and are no
    longer susceptible to free radical degradation. Food is not made this
    way, because it would be too thick and hard, so instead some of the
    double bonds are "filled in" with hydrogen using a refining process
    that strips the oil of all or most of the antioxidant cover is contains
    naturally, and so the remaining double bonds are highly susceptible to
    free radical degradation.

    If, for some reason, you don't "believe" this basic science here, we
    can do an experiment: we will feed one group of adult animals fully
    hydrogenated coconut oil as their major source of fatty acids and
    another group will recieve fish oil and canola oil. Fat will make up
    25 to 30 percent of the caloric intake. The canola and fish oil will
    not be hydrogenated and will come off the shelves of a retailer. We
    will see which group of animals lives longer. According to you, the
    fish and canola oil group should live much longer, but if they don't
    you pay for all expenses, including lawyers' fees to draw up an
    agreement. If they do live longer, I will pay for all expenses.

    PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR BIG, IGNORANT MOUTH IS OR STOP MISLEADING
    PEOPLE.

    Once again, I am waiting...

  15. "montygram" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    You are just plain wrong here MMu, regardless of the nonsense you cite.

    For example:

    "When an unsaturated oil is hydrogenated, hydrogen atoms are forced
    into the fatty acid molecules. The hydrogen atoms bind to the carbon
    chain in the vacant double-bonded sites, where only one hydrogen atom
    is attached to the carbon atoms. In so doing the extra hydrogen removes
    the double bond, straightens the chain, and makes the molecule more
    saturated."

    http://www.tfx.org.uk/page32.html

    This is exactly what I said.
    Where is the relevance to your claim that trans fats are saturated fats?

    If an oil is *fully* hydrogenated it is saturated and DOES NOT HAVE A TRANS
    CONFIGURATION any more.
    A saturated fat therefore is NEVER A TRANS FAT.

    For god's sake look at the chemical structure of a saturated fat and of a
    trans fat and don't make a fool out of yourself here.

    Quoted message said:

    You are the one playing a dangerous semantic game here, endanging
    peoples' lives.

    Fist this is not semantics but "molecular level detail" that you claim to
    provide.
    The one endagering people is you - you give advice to people who can't tell
    your lies and delusions from the truth.

    Didn't people come back with questions about what to do about their skin
    cracking and drying up after following *your* advice?

    Quoted message said:

    If you take a highly unsaturated oil and fully
    hydrogenate it, all the bonds are "saturated" with hydrogen, and are no
    longer susceptible to free radical degradation. Food is not made this
    way, because it would be too thick and hard, so instead some of the
    double bonds are "filled in" with hydrogen using a refining process
    that strips the oil of all or most of the antioxidant cover is contains
    naturally, and so the remaining double bonds are highly susceptible to
    free radical degradation.

    Say, how does this support your post where you said that trans fats are
    saturated fatty acids?

    Quoted message said:

    If, for some reason, you don't "believe" this basic science here, we

    Where was the "basic science" in your reply?

    You claimed that trans fatty acids are SATURATED fatty acids- this is plain
    and utterly wrong.
    Open up ANY chem book and educate yourself on the matter.

    Quoted message said:

    can do an experiment: we will feed one group of adult animals fully
    hydrogenated coconut oil as their major source of fatty acids and
    another group will recieve fish oil and canola oil. Fat will make up
    25 to 30 percent of the caloric intake. The canola and fish oil will
    not be hydrogenated and will come off the shelves of a retailer. We
    will see which group of animals lives longer. According to you, the
    fish and canola oil group should live much longer, but if they don't
    you pay for all expenses, including lawyers' fees to draw up an
    agreement. If they do live longer, I will pay for all expenses.

    PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR BIG, IGNORANT MOUTH IS OR STOP MISLEADING
    PEOPLE.

    These tests have already been done and the results don't agree to your
    theories.
    Where is the need to put my money anywhere when a lot more money has already
    been spent on that?

    You have the option of applying for a research grant by just sending your
    proposed project together with literature that points in the direction you
    are researching to any fund. This is always the best way to get an
    experiment like this controlled properly and reviewed by peers. Your refuse
    this way (which is standard for any scientific work).

    You also refuse to proove your own theory that your mead acid levels are
    elevated - even though all it takes to do that is a very simple blood test
    that any medical lab can perform.

    You state you have eliminated sources for w3 and w6 fatty acids- yet you
    consume "lots of butter" in your own words. Butter is a source of these
    fatty acids.

    You state that w6 is more dangerous than w3 due to higher oxidation and
    radical damage even though w3's have more doublebonds per molecule weight.

    You state one should eat lots of cholesterol even though cholesterol has
    even more doublebonds than both w3 and w6 fatty acids together.

    You are not making any sense.

    Quoted message said:

    Once again, I am waiting...

    You should use your time and read some organic- and biochemistry while you
    wait.

    PS
    Say, do you have any problems with hitting the reply-all button on the right
    post?


  16. Quoted message said:

    You state one should eat lots of cholesterol even though cholesterol has
    even more doublebonds than both w3 and w6 fatty acids together.

    clarification: referring to total ammount, not to per-molecule ammount.


  17. Quoted message said:

    You state one should eat lots of cholesterol even though cholesterol has
    even more doublebonds than both w3 and w6 fatty acids together.

    clarification: referring to total ammount, not to per-molecule ammount.

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.