Cadence weirdness

OzCableguy said:

Ok, I'm a big bloke (130kg+, but not all fat) and got back into cycling a
few months ago to help decrease the girth. With a 20k ride every morning and
a couple of hours in the gym at night so far I'm down about 15kg so all is
good. The Giant Sedona Comfort Bike was a great choice and is still up to
the job (I've only broken one spoke so far and the rear axle is only a
little bit bent.) but I was running out of legs all of the time. eg At
130rpm in top cog on a decent downhill I'm only just cracking 60kmh. So I'm
asking the bloke at the LBS about maybe fitting taller gears so I've got a
few more to play with, and he takes one look at my legs and tells me I'm not
pedalling fast enough. ;-)
Ok, so figuring that most of the techno/dance coming out of my MP3 player
was generally around ~140bpm, if I'm keeping time to the beat I was probably
pedalling in the 65-75rpm range. Fitted a cadence meter and discovered I was
pretty much on the money. Now, to get it up around the recommended 80-90rpm
I was going to need some practice, so I get some MTB shoes and clips and
start getting used to dropping down a cog or three below where I'd normally
be.
Straight away I discover that even though my average speed & time for the
route is about the same as it was, I'm seriously running out of puff and
getting home fairly messed up. But after about 3 weeks of this, my times are
starting to improve and my weight loss rate has also increased so I'm
definitely sold on the idea. However, today I've got a shocking cold and
feeling lousy but I decide to go out anyway and just take it easy. Low and
behold I get home most unexpectedly with a new PB time and speed but my
average cadence is only around 70 rpm because I was deliberately plodding
along without making any effort at all to spin. But I didn't feel like I
wasn't powering into it either and could have kept going at that pace
indefinitely so I didn't suspect for a moment that I was going any faster.
Why is it so?

--
www.ozcableguy.com
www.oztechnologies.com

B'cos you're getting fitter, Big Guy 😄

SteveA

Yes indeedy (and I'd hope so too) but it was unexpected that I'd be faster
at a slower cadence using a taller gear (and with restricted breathing due
to flu) after training for faster cadence. I mean it's not strength training
but somehow I've ended up stronger without the extra power/effort having a
negative impact on my endurance, breathing or lactic build-up etc.
On the other hand since the beginning of August I've lost 10cm from my waist
but my thighs are 4cm bigger each, and that size increase also has to take
into account a fair amount of fat that I've lost from my thighs as well, so
yeah, bigger muscles combined with decreased weight has gotta be all it is.

--
www.ozcableguy.com
www.oztechnologies.com
"SteveA" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B'cos you're getting fitter, Big Guy 😄

SteveA

OzCableguy said:

Yes indeedy (and I'd hope so too) but it was unexpected that I'd be faster
at a slower cadence using a taller gear (and with restricted breathing due
to flu) after training for faster cadence. I mean it's not strength training
but somehow I've ended up stronger without the extra power/effort having a
negative impact on my endurance, breathing or lactic build-up etc.
On the other hand since the beginning of August I've lost 10cm from my waist
but my thighs are 4cm bigger each, and that size increase also has to take
into account a fair amount of fat that I've lost from my thighs as well, so
yeah, bigger muscles combined with decreased weight has gotta be all it is.

--
www.ozcableguy.com
www.oztechnologies.com
"SteveA" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B'cos you're getting fitter, Big Guy 😄

SteveA

In addition to the obvious (you're getting lighter and fitter), another reason might be that you've adapted to slow cadence and not to a faster cadence - yet. Your strength is probably not much different than before - cycling improves your aerobic system... you can push as hard on the pedals as before without having to breathe as hard.

On the flats, weight doesn't matter so much, but I'll bet you've noticed a big difference on hills!

Faster cadence requires stability and a bit of adaptation. I wouldn't say it's harder, it's just different. Same ground speed = same power, but fast cadence means less torque at more revs. Using your strength, you're probably used to putting out lots of torque at lower revs.

From the sounds of it, you'll be zooming around everywhere soon!

Good luck

Ritch

Ok, a few gross generalisations within :

firstly, one-off PB's are to be treated with caution. What was the
wind doing?
If you're in Melbourne and this happened in the last 3 days, it's got
to be a significant factor!

Secondly, and this is another gross generalisation, high cadence vs low
is often a factor of leg strength. You're a big lad, and lower cadences
will exploit your leg strength (to a point) and higher cadences will
(by the sound of it) stress your aerobic fitness moreso than it's been
able to deal with - but as you note, you're getting fitter and therefor
better at it.

You're definatly fitter than you were (both aerobically and in terms of
leg power, which is *not* the same as strength - power is force over
time, strength is just force). As such, turning a lower cadence (70rpm
or so, which in roadyland is very low cadence) is something that with
your improved aerobic fitness you can do for longer. Aerobic training
(higher cadences, in this case) result in greater capilary density and
other improvements in muscle function, thus meaning you can grind away
at 70rpm for longer than you could before.

We don't know anything about your riding position, but you're on a
hybrid, so you won't be terribly aerodynamic (see point above re
wind!). You may also be in a position that doesn't suit spinning as
much as grinding (you may be a fraction low or high).

You'll have improved your pedal stroke with higher cadence work as it
is, which will also have assisted power production at lower cadences.

Another thing to remember is that apart from track sprinting, cycling
is not a strength sport - it's about sustained delivery of considerably
sub-maximal power. You've improved your aerobic fitness a lot, which
will rub off into more sustainable power. Good one! Keep at it!

Excellent points! Yep, I am about as aerodynamic as a fridge at the moment
and with the seat post suspension I find I'm hammering the seat down as I
ride and have to stop at some point on the run to readjust it. Weather was
fairly standard today. Slightly overcast but not much wind so that wasn't
really a factor. And yep, I do find spinning on a road bike feels much more
natural. Eventually I'll become a roadie again but for the moment I have to
settle for hybrids. There's no way in the world I'd be able to breath all
hunched over on a road bike with my big fat guts, and I'd only bend it
anyway. ;-)

--
www.ozcableguy.com
www.oztechnologies.com
"Bleve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ok, a few gross generalisations within :

firstly, one-off PB's are to be treated with caution. What was the
wind doing?
If you're in Melbourne and this happened in the last 3 days, it's got
to be a significant factor!

Secondly, and this is another gross generalisation, high cadence vs low
is often a factor of leg strength. You're a big lad, and lower cadences
will exploit your leg strength (to a point) and higher cadences will
(by the sound of it) stress your aerobic fitness moreso than it's been
able to deal with - but as you note, you're getting fitter and therefor
better at it.

You're definatly fitter than you were (both aerobically and in terms of
leg power, which is *not* the same as strength - power is force over
time, strength is just force). As such, turning a lower cadence (70rpm
or so, which in roadyland is very low cadence) is something that with
your improved aerobic fitness you can do for longer. Aerobic training
(higher cadences, in this case) result in greater capilary density and
other improvements in muscle function, thus meaning you can grind away
at 70rpm for longer than you could before.

We don't know anything about your riding position, but you're on a
hybrid, so you won't be terribly aerodynamic (see point above re
wind!). You may also be in a position that doesn't suit spinning as
much as grinding (you may be a fraction low or high).

You'll have improved your pedal stroke with higher cadence work as it
is, which will also have assisted power production at lower cadences.

Another thing to remember is that apart from track sprinting, cycling
is not a strength sport - it's about sustained delivery of considerably
sub-maximal power. You've improved your aerobic fitness a lot, which
will rub off into more sustainable power. Good one! Keep at it!

In article <[email hidden]>,

OzCableguy said:

Yes indeedy (and I'd hope so too) but it was unexpected that I'd be faster
at a slower cadence using a taller gear (and with restricted breathing due
to flu) after training for faster cadence. I mean it's not strength training
but somehow I've ended up stronger without the extra power/effort having a
negative impact on my endurance, breathing or lactic build-up etc.
On the other hand since the beginning of August I've lost 10cm from my waist
but my thighs are 4cm bigger each, and that size increase also has to take
into account a fair amount of fat that I've lost from my thighs as well, so
yeah, bigger muscles combined with decreased weight has gotta be all it is.

Hey Big Guy, you are doing well. There has been some good advice from
other posters.
My two-cents worth is that in the early stages of learning to ride a
bike it is easier to go fast in a taller gear because you are not
attuned to get the cadence up to around 80+ comfortably and sustained
for longish periods. That tall gear is great for generating speed but
the trouble is that you cannot keep pushing the tall gear all day (yet).
As you practice spinning you should find that you can maintain the
optimal cadence comfortably and be able to generate the same roadspeed
for longer. Cycling is all about keeping the cadence up and selecting
the gear to suit the conditions.
One of the problems with getting increased cadence on your Giant Sedona
is that a lot of the energy you are generating is being lost bouncing
that seatpost up and down and compressing those forks. On a rigid
roadbike that energy can be transmitted to the drive-train and allows
you to pedal faster. In addition, the upright seating position, while
good for comfort, makes it that much harder to crank those pedals over
fast for any sustained period. Therefore there will be a trade-off
between increased cadence and wasted energy. Your optimum cadence would
probably be closer to 80 than 100 on that bike.
Of course, having said that, I seem to get overtaken by mtb and hybrid
riders with monotonous regularity.
Keep it up though. It is great fun to see gradual improvements (and
believe me the improvements are gradual).
regards,
darryl

OzCableguy said:

Yes indeedy (and I'd hope so too) but it was unexpected that I'd be faster
at a slower cadence using a taller gear (and with restricted breathing due
to flu) after training for faster cadence. I mean it's not strength training
but somehow I've ended up stronger without the extra power/effort having a
negative impact on my endurance, breathing or lactic build-up etc.
On the other hand since the beginning of August I've lost 10cm from my waist
but my thighs are 4cm bigger each, and that size increase also has to take
into account a fair amount of fat that I've lost from my thighs as well, so
yeah, bigger muscles combined with decreased weight has gotta be all it is.

Aside from that, your increased endurance (fitter) means you last longer
in the similar low-cadence activity; it's easier to adapt back to low
cadence, and many triathletes train at around 105 in off season and drop
back to 80-90 when racing for that reason; and high-cadence cycling has
probably made your pedal stroke more efficient as well.

Tamyka

Bleve said:

Ok, a few gross generalisations within :

firstly, one-off PB's are to be treated with caution. What was the
wind doing?
If you're in Melbourne and this happened in the last 3 days, it's got
to be a significant factor!

Secondly, and this is another gross generalisation, high cadence vs low
is often a factor of leg strength. You're a big lad, and lower cadences
will exploit your leg strength (to a point) and higher cadences will
(by the sound of it) stress your aerobic fitness moreso than it's been
able to deal with - but as you note, you're getting fitter and therefor
better at it.

You're definatly fitter than you were (both aerobically and in terms of
leg power, which is *not* the same as strength - power is force over
time, strength is just force). As such, turning a lower cadence (70rpm
or so, which in roadyland is very low cadence) is something that with
your improved aerobic fitness you can do for longer. Aerobic training
(higher cadences, in this case) result in greater capilary density and
other improvements in muscle function, thus meaning you can grind away
at 70rpm for longer than you could before.

We don't know anything about your riding position, but you're on a
hybrid, so you won't be terribly aerodynamic (see point above re
wind!). You may also be in a position that doesn't suit spinning as
much as grinding (you may be a fraction low or high).

You'll have improved your pedal stroke with higher cadence work as it
is, which will also have assisted power production at lower cadences.

Another thing to remember is that apart from track sprinting, cycling
is not a strength sport - it's about sustained delivery of considerably
sub-maximal power. You've improved your aerobic fitness a lot, which
will rub off into more sustainable power. Good one! Keep at it!

Ah [censored], should've known you had already stepped in to say all that.

Tam

Holy moley! 105?

--
www.ozcableguy.com
www.oztechnologies.com
"Tamyka Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OzCableguy said:

Yes indeedy (and I'd hope so too) but it was unexpected that I'd be
faster
at a slower cadence using a taller gear (and with restricted breathing
due
to flu) after training for faster cadence. I mean it's not strength
training
but somehow I've ended up stronger without the extra power/effort having
a
negative impact on my endurance, breathing or lactic build-up etc.
On the other hand since the beginning of August I've lost 10cm from my
waist
but my thighs are 4cm bigger each, and that size increase also has to
take
into account a fair amount of fat that I've lost from my thighs as well,
so
yeah, bigger muscles combined with decreased weight has gotta be all it
is.

Aside from that, your increased endurance (fitter) means you last longer
in the similar low-cadence activity; it's easier to adapt back to low
cadence, and many triathletes train at around 105 in off season and drop
back to 80-90 when racing for that reason; and high-cadence cycling has
probably made your pedal stroke more efficient as well.

Tamyka

On 2005-11-04, OzCableguy (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

www.oztechnologies.com
"Tamyka Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Aside from that, your increased endurance (fitter) means you last longer
in the similar low-cadence activity; it's easier to adapt back to low
cadence, and many triathletes train at around 105 in off season and drop
back to 80-90 when racing for that reason; and high-cadence cycling has
probably made your pedal stroke more efficient as well.

Holy moley! 105?

That's not a cadence! This is a cadence! <Whips out ... er,
something>

145 is about when you start bouncing around a bit too much for comfort
🙂

P.S. I don't want to get all DRS on yo' ass, but could you snip
appropriately, and bottom post, pretty please with a cherry on top?
Ta 🙂

--
TimC
That's not a tau-neutrino in my pocket; I've got a hadron.

TimC said:

On 2005-11-04, OzCableguy (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

www.oztechnologies.com
"Tamyka Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Aside from that, your increased endurance (fitter) means you last longer
in the similar low-cadence activity; it's easier to adapt back to low
cadence, and many triathletes train at around 105 in off season and drop
back to 80-90 when racing for that reason; and high-cadence cycling has
probably made your pedal stroke more efficient as well.

Holy moley! 105?

That's not a cadence! This is a cadence! <Whips out ... er,
something>

Hey, 105's not that high!

Quoted message said:

145 is about when you start bouncing around a bit too much for comfort
🙂

Hahaha I last about 20 seconds at 145. By that stage I've bounced myself
off the bike. 120 is okay though.

Quoted message said:

P.S. I don't want to get all DRS on yo' ass, but could you snip
appropriately, and bottom post, pretty please with a cherry on top?
Ta 🙂

ROFLMAO - DRS would love that

Quoted message said:

--
TimC
That's not a tau-neutrino in my pocket; I've got a hadron.

You are such a nerd. Who is that quote attributed to?

Tam

On 04/11/05 at 17:39:04 OzCableguy somehow managed to type:

Quoted message said:

Holy moley! 105?

Here's the difference between spinners and pushers. I, as a spinner,
thought the same as you except I was thinking along the lines of "is
that all" At anything less than about 100 I feel like I'm pushing a big
gear and I won't last very long at all. About 110-115 is good - I can
spin that all day.

--
Humbug
BE A LOOF! (There has been a recent population explosion of lerts.)

Snip yes. Post upside-down, no.
But now that you mention it, this newsgroup does seem to have a lot more
than the usual amount of upside-down posters. I'm getting RSI in my scroll
finger! ;-)

--
www.ozcableguy.com
www.oztechnologies.com
"TimC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

P.S. I don't want to get all DRS on yo' ass, but could you snip
appropriately, and bottom post, pretty please with a cherry on top?
Ta 🙂

--
TimC
That's not a tau-neutrino in my pocket; I've got a hadron.

Crikey!
The most I've ever hit (since I've fitted the cadence meter) is 130 and
there's no way I could keep that up for very long. Anything above 90 feels
weird to me at this stage but I'm sure I'll get used to it with practice.

--
www.ozcableguy.com
www.oztechnologies.com
"Tamyka Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 4 Nov 2005, TimC wrote:
Hey, 105's not that high!

Quoted message said:

145 is about when you start bouncing around a bit too much for comfort
🙂

Hahaha I last about 20 seconds at 145. By that stage I've bounced myself
off the bike. 120 is okay though.

On 2005-11-04, Tamyka Bell (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

TimC said:

145 is about when you start bouncing around a bit too much for comfort
🙂

Hahaha I last about 20 seconds at 145. By that stage I've bounced myself
off the bike. 120 is okay though.

I didn't say I didn't bounce off the bike 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

TimC
That's not a tau-neutrino in my pocket; I've got a hadron.

You are such a nerd. Who is that quote attributed to?

I'm afraid I donut know.

If the cats weren't so insistent on searching for kitty pr0n right
now, I might go have a look.

GET OUT OF THE MINCED KANGAROO! IT'LL MAKE YOU SICK, YOU STUPID FELINE!

--
TimC
If my head were spinning at relativistic speeds,
it would appear to everyone else that my brane had slowed down.
-- Dan E. Macs on RHOD

OzCableguy said:

Crikey!
The most I've ever hit (since I've fitted the cadence meter) is 130 and there's no way I could keep that up for very long. Anything above 90 feels weird to me at this stage but I'm sure I'll get used to it with practice.

Carlos, what did you hit on the mag trainer, that one time at band camp?

hippy
- who's forgotten how to spin, get me road racing!

Humbug said:

On 04/11/05 at 17:39:04 OzCableguy somehow managed to type:

Quoted message said:

Holy moley! 105?

Here's the difference between spinners and pushers. I, as a spinner,
thought the same as you except I was thinking along the lines of "is
that all" At anything less than about 100 I feel like I'm pushing a big
gear and I won't last very long at all. About 110-115 is good - I can
spin that all day.

Holy moley! Get bigger cranks!

Tam

On 05/11/05 at 09:50:18 Tamyka Bell somehow managed to type:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Holy moley!

I _knew_ someone'd say that...

Quoted message said:

Get bigger cranks!

Nah - I've got short legs, in fact one of 'em is a deal shorter and
weaker than the other...:-)

--
Humbug
BE A LOOF! (There has been a recent population explosion of lerts.)

hippy said:

OzCableguy said:

Crikey!
The most I've ever hit (since I've fitted the cadence meter) is 130 and
there's no way I could keep that up for very long. Anything above 90
feels weird to me at this stage but I'm sure I'll get used to it with
practice.

Carlos, what did you hit on the mag trainer, that one time at band
camp?

One time, at 'bentcamp, 267rpm for 10 seconds.
(two six seven)

105mm cranks though ...