Physiological testing???

FWIW, I have also been considering getting some lab tests done around the first of the year. I haven't fully defined the data that I want to collect, but in addition to VO2MAX and LT, I plan to test my blood lactate at multiple points on the power curve (e.g., in 25w increments from 125w-600w). I want to see how closely my blood lactate power curve compares with the 4th power curve that is the basis of NP. I am also interested in my blood lactate recovery rates after I cut back on power, but I haven't fully decided on a protocol for that. It would be something like, ride at 325w for 2 mins, take a blood lactate reading and then ride at 150w for ~5 mins and take a blood lactate reading every 30sec. My main interest is variable power pacing strategies.

The usual caveat - check with your doctor first.

Also, if you're currently training, take a few days easy or off completely before each test - they should be extremely strenuous and you want to be well-rested.

If you are going to repeat the tests at some point, also get them to do body comp analysis so you can track % body fat. This isn't too useful if you only do it once as there is a decent margin of error (if you do it more than once, it is useful to track trends which should be noticeable beyond the margin of error provided they use the same technique, calipers, etc each time.)

Obviously, have the tests done on your own bike if possible. If not, get as anal as possible about replicating your setup.

have fun! 😉

RapDaddyo said:

FWIW, I have also been considering getting some lab tests done around the first of the year. I haven't fully defined the data that I want to collect, but in addition to VO2MAX and LT, I plan to test my blood lactate at multiple points on the power curve (e.g., in 25w increments from 125w-600w). I want to see how closely my blood lactate power curve compares with the 4th power curve that is the basis of NP. I am also interested in my blood lactate recovery rates after I cut back on power, but I haven't fully decided on a protocol for that. It would be something like, ride at 325w for 2 mins, take a blood lactate reading and then ride at 150w for ~5 mins and take a blood lactate reading every 30sec. My main interest is variable power pacing strategies.

Determining your LT will require measuring your blood lactate concentration at various intensities, so you're not really asking for anything special there (except perhaps for more points than some labs would usually use). As for the shape of the curve and the rate of recovery, I don't think you'll learn much from them...in all likelihood your blood lactate won't rise as steeply as suggested by the 4th order weighting (since the stages will be too short to allow for equilibration between muscle and blood), and the rate of decline in blood lactate really doesn't say anything about your own personal rate of "recovery" from hard efforts.

Andy,

Is there a defined protocol to use for lactate testing to define warmdown/recovery intervals or efforts? I have heard speak of this lately from coaches with lactate testers.

One would be able to define a custom cool-down routine. It is usually harder than one would expect...not zone 1 IMHO.

Spunout said:

Is there a defined protocol to use for lactate testing to define warmdown/recovery intervals or efforts? I have heard speak of this lately from coaches with lactate testers.

None that I've heard of/none that would have a rational physiological basis (except perhaps for the fact that the intensity needs to be matched to your individual LT to achieve the most rapid fall in blood lactate...not that the latter necessarily means anything, though.)

JohnMeyers said:

Hi guys,
I live on a college campus and have been lucky enough to find a lab that would be willing to do some testing on me. What testing would I benefit from? What numbers would be helpful to know? I assumed V02 max and LT threshold would be good. Is there anything else I should know going in there? Tips?

Thanks!
John

I've had V02 and Lactate testing done over the last 2 years. The first time you do it is basically a 'line in the sand' type marker ie your reference point for all future tests. Labs usually also measure body composition (skinfold tests) which is also useful to get done. Don't know what protocol your lab will use, but mine used 50W increase every 3 min - don't know if this is good or bad.

The real insight i've found is seeing how the lactate/power curve has 'right' shifted over time - ie i have lower lactate levels for any given power output than i did when i first got tested. It's useful to have this info as it helps set your intensity levels for interval training and provides a better understanding about where your limits are. It also provides 'proof' that you have improved😄 . The test won't make you a better rider, but will help structure your training to make you a better rider.

Breathing through the mouthpiece is a bit strange at first (your nose is clamped). Mkae sure you're well rested before the test - no hard exercise the day before was what i was told. Also eat some high GI food 1-2 hrs before the test. It's also good to be in reasonable shape prior to doing it as 1) the test itself hurts and you have to push to the limit 2) you spend $ to do it so why waste money if you're out of shape

Once the lactate accumulates....oh man it hurts!!:eek: Good luck.

Does anyone have a scan of a document they give you, or something like that?

I wouldn't mind going in there and having an "outline" of what I want from the test.

JohnMeyers said:

Does anyone have a scan of a document they give you, or something like that?

I wouldn't mind going in there and having an "outline" of what I want from the test.

Check out the following doc midweekclub.cacoggan.pdfOpen ↗
See page 4 - this is the type of lactate/power profile the lab will give you at the end along with your HR at each point. What you want is this profile for you complete with LT, IAT (ie TT power) and MHR i guess. If you own a power meter, you can then set all your training levels based on LT and IAT. If you don't have a PM, then HR based zones becomes your option along with perceived effort in setting your training zones. Since it's your first test, it's more a 'learning' thing. The real value (IMO) is how you use the data from the test to better structure your training - that's another topic in itself. There's no more preparation for it other than being well rested AND motivated to push to your limit (this is important).

Dini77 said:

The real value (IMO) is how you use the data from the test to better structure your training

If one has a PM, then one can establish FT and/or MAP and structure training levels based on either or both. What is the incremental value of test data to structure training?

Dini77 said:

Check out the following doc midweekclub.cacoggan.pdfOpen ↗
See page 4 - this is the type of lactate/power profile the lab will give you at the end along with your HR at each point. What you want is this profile for you complete with LT, IAT (ie TT power) and MHR i guess. If you own a power meter, you can then set all your training levels based on LT and IAT. If you don't have a PM, then HR based zones becomes your option along with perceived effort in setting your training zones. Since it's your first test, it's more a 'learning' thing. The real value (IMO) is how you use the data from the test to better structure your training - that's another topic in itself. There's no more preparation for it other than being well rested AND motivated to push to your limit (this is important).

Thank you all for all of your help, I appreciate it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not true that you don't have to go THAT hard for a LT test? As soon as you are a hundred or so watts above your LT you will be able to easily see an increase in lactate on a graph, right?

My guess, from RPE, and based on what I can sustain for 30 minutes or so (325 watts), is that I have an LT around 310.

I'm currently a Cat 3, and I've been riding for about 9 months or so (Started my first USCF season this summer in the 4's after my collegiate season). I would probably label myself a "fast responder" based on the information in Joe Friels Book.

However, I really don't want to know my VO2Max unless it is ridiculously high. I don't want to feel as if I'm genetically limited, if you know what I mean. Does anyone else feel this way? 😕:o

RapDaddyo said:

If one has a PM, then one can establish FT and/or MAP and structure training levels based on either or both. What is the incremental value of test data to structure training?

You're right in that incremental value isn't much if you own a PM. For someone who doesn't own a PM the incremental value is huge. At least it puts some science behind setting your levels rather than the 'i think my max HR is x etc'. I am looking into getting a PM now and am thinking to bite the bullett and go SRM. In future, i won't need a lab but it served a pupose in getting my power level data so i don't have to do all the initial tests once i do get the PM

As you said, you could determine all this with a PM, but you don't get the blood lactate profile. I guess the incremental value for a PM owner is pure interest value or in your case, if you want to test a specific hypoithesis re VPP.

JohnMeyers said:

Thank you all for all of your help, I appreciate it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not true that you don't have to go THAT hard for a LT test? As soon as you are a hundred or so watts above your LT you will be able to easily see an increase in lactate on a graph, right?

It's a ramped power test to failure so you will be pushing very hard - unless you pack it in as soon as it gets hard, in which case, why bother taking the test. You're there to see where you're at and believe me, 100W+/- above the initial LT deflection you will be in a world of hurt.:eek:

JohnMeyers said:

My guess, from RPE, and based on what I can sustain for 30 minutes or so (325 watts), is that I have an LT around 310.?

Where did you get these power numbers from. Have you got a PM? If yes, then as RD said in his earlier post, you can get all the numbers you need using your PM, or you already have them.

JohnMeyers said:

However, I really don't want to know my VO2Max unless it is ridiculously high. I don't want to feel as if I'm genetically limited, if you know what I mean. Does anyone else feel this way? 😕:o

Um, how would you know you had a ridiculously high V02max unless you get tested?? Low V02max doesn't necessarily mean your limited and vice versa. I think the range for pro's is like 65-90 or something. I know a few people with V02's in the mid-high 70's (higher than me and some pro's), but i can kick their butts any day of the week and a pro will kick all our butts every day of the year😄

JohnMeyers said:

However, I really don't want to know my VO2Max unless it is ridiculously high. I don't want to feel as if I'm genetically limited, if you know what I mean. Does anyone else feel this way? 😕:o

If you can sustain 325w for 30min, you should not worry about your VO2Max. I don't think you can hit these numbers without a "higher than average" VO2Max.

I would want to have my VO2max, efficiency, HR @ Lactate threshold, and HR @ OBLA (onset of blood lactate accumulation) tested.

By far and away the most important though is the VO2max test because it makes transparent the power output that you could theoretically sustain (you can come up with an FT Heartrate in field tests).

The following is entirely based on reading what other people had to say, and making some assumptions as well, hence if its' misleading or wrong please correct me. Anyways…

1) it seems to be established that the body can liberate 20,000 kj of energy per minute per litre of oxygen consumed when fueled with the fastest burning carbs.

2) If your absolute VO2max comes back from the test as 5 litres a minute then in theory your VO2max power output could be:

((20,000 x 5) * efficiency) / (1min*60 seconds)

3) Most cyclists appear to be 21-23% efficient, hence using a number of 22%

((20,000 x 5) * .22) / (1min*60 seconds) = 366 watts at VO2 max

4) Your threshold power output is going to be this number, multiplied by the percentage of VO2 max you can sustain for a given duration.

5) There is a relationship you can use to estimate this, from threshold HR, based on some empirical analysis done in the past...

(thresholdHrInPercent - .37) * (1 / 0.64)

Again for example, at 90% of max HR...

Sustainable % of VO2max = (((.90 * 100) - 37) * (1 / 0.64)) / 100 = .828

Sustainable power = 366 * .828 = 303watts

5) For these reasons, the importance of a high VO2 max is plain to see, as is the importance of doing everythign you can to improve it.

I have had a VO2max test, the absolute number was a little over 5L/min, yet I can only sustain 290 watts for 20 mins 9averaging 90% of MHR). What that means in light of the above, I'm not sure. If the issue is poor efficiency then I will soon find out because I have signed up to be part of a Phd research study on cycling efficiency. It will be very interesting to see my real world efficiency numbers.

robkit said:

I have had a VO2max test, the absolute number was a little over 5L/min, yet I can only sustain 290 watts for 20 mins 9averaging 90% of MHR). What that means in light of the above, I'm not sure. If the issue is poor efficiency then I will soon find out because I have signed up to be part of a Phd research study on cycling efficiency. It will be very interesting to see my real world efficiency numbers.

The more likely explanation is that, for a trained cyclist anyway, your lactate threshold is low relative to your VO2max. Cycling efficiency can and does vary between individuals, but unless your seat height is grossly off or your cadence far too high or too low, usually still falls into a fairly narrow range (i.e., 21-23%).

FWIW, at age 46 my VO2max is down to only ~4.5 L/min, but I can still sustain 300 W for ~1 h, thanks to an LT of ~85% of my VO2max.

acoggan said:

The more likely explanation is that, for a trained cyclist anyway, your lactate threshold is low relative to your VO2max. Cycling efficiency can and does vary between individuals, but unless your seat height is grossly off or your cadence far too high or too low, usually still falls into a fairly narrow range (i.e., 21-23%).

FWIW, at age 46 my VO2max is down to only ~4.5 L/min, but I can still sustain 300 W for ~1 h, thanks to an LT of ~85% of my VO2max.

Where could I read more about VO2max numbers and LT as a percentage of VO2Max ? Are there banks of data out there available to see?

Dini77 said:

It's a ramped power test to failure so you will be pushing very hard - unless you pack it in as soon as it gets hard, in which case, why bother taking the test. You're there to see where you're at and believe me, 100W+/- above the initial LT deflection you will be in a world of hurt.:eek:

Where did you get these power numbers from. Have you got a PM? If yes, then as RD said in his earlier post, you can get all the numbers you need using your PM, or you already have them.

Um, how would you know you had a ridiculously high V02max unless you get tested?? Low V02max doesn't necessarily mean your limited and vice versa. I think the range for pro's is like 65-90 or something. I know a few people with V02's in the mid-high 70's (higher than me and some pro's), but i can kick their butts any day of the week and a pro will kick all our butts every day of the year😄

I guess it depends on how long you spend at each power level. Spending a lot of time above 400 watts would definitely be a world of hurt (for me anyways), but unless I'm mistaken, you wouldn't need to spend that much time above your LT before it could be visibly shown on a graph (assuming you were collecting lactate levels at frequent enough intervals) that your LT had been reached... right? I'm just trying to understand the process.

I do have a PowerTap Pro. But I don't necessarily "trust" my guess for my LT. Also, how do I know for sure that my PT is calibrated correctly? When I stop pedalling it goes to zero, but does that garuntee that its correct?

In response to your last comment: that is obviously the conundrum that I am faced with. I only want to know it if my VO2Max is very high :o Understand?

Dini77 said:

It's a ramped power test to failure so you will be pushing very hard - unless you pack it in as soon as it gets hard, in which case, why bother taking the test. You're there to see where you're at and believe me, 100W+/- above the initial LT deflection you will be in a world of hurt.:eek:

Where did you get these power numbers from. Have you got a PM? If yes, then as RD said in his earlier post, you can get all the numbers you need using your PM, or you already have them.

Um, how would you know you had a ridiculously high V02max unless you get tested?? Low V02max doesn't necessarily mean your limited and vice versa. I think the range for pro's is like 65-90 or something. I know a few people with V02's in the mid-high 70's (higher than me and some pro's), but i can kick their butts any day of the week and a pro will kick all our butts every day of the year😄

I guess it depends on how long you spend at each power level. Spending a lot of time above 400 watts would definitely be a world of hurt (for me anyways), but unless I'm mistaken, you wouldn't need to spend that much time above your LT before it could be visibly shown on a graph (assuming you were collecting lactate levels at frequent enough intervals) that your LT had been reached... right? I'm just trying to understand the process.

I do have a PowerTap Pro. But I don't necessarily "trust" my guess for my LT. Also, how do I know for sure that my PT is calibrated correctly? When I stop pedalling it goes to zero, but does that garuntee that its correct?

In response to your last comment: that is obviously the conundrum that I am faced with. I only want to know it if my VO2Max is very high :o Understand?

JohnMeyers said:

I guess it depends on how long you spend at each power level. Spending a lot of time above 400 watts would definitely be a world of hurt (for me anyways), but unless I'm mistaken, you wouldn't need to spend that much time above your LT before it could be visibly shown on a graph (assuming you were collecting lactate levels at frequent enough intervals) that your LT had been reached... right? I'm just trying to understand the process.

I had a lactate test done last month. It began at 100watts and went up every 3 minutes by 15 watts. It was technically not a "too-exhaustion" test, and I felt I could have gone a bit more at the end, but we already had the info we were looking for, so we stopped. It was nice to stop. :eek:

Six months ago I had a VO2Max test done at the same facility (UC Davis Sports Med) and also began at 100 watts but ramped up 15 watts every 1.5 minutes. Shorter, but still uncomfortable, especially due to the mouthpiece.

Anyway, have fun! Even if I had a SRM, I'd still go to a good lab just for the experience. I'm a firm believer in the motivational benefit (or in less kind terms, placebo effect) of working with trained professionals.