Chain advice please

rBOB said:

I have plenty of experience working on upright bikes but I have not
replaced the chain on my first bent yet. I have the following
questions:

1. Do I need to buy a special chain or can I combine SRAM PC-58 chains?
(This is an 8 speed cassette and I have 10 new SRAM PC-58 chains in my
parts bin so I would prefer to use those if possible.)

While a few places sell longer than standard chains, many (most?)
recumbents use several shorter chains joined together.

Quoted message said:

2. If OK to combine chains, do I use additional the super links (or
whatever they are called) or is there another preferred way (such as
using the chain tool to combine the chains)?

While there is general consensus that it is fine to join five (5) and
six (6) speed SRAM/Sachs/Sedis chains with pins, it is NOT recommended
for nine (9) and ten (10) speed chains. Seven/eight (7/8) speed chains
can be rejoined with pins, but some have reported failures [1] from
doing so.

SRAM recommends using their Power Links [TM] to rejoin their chains, so
this would appear to be the most reliable method.

Quoted message said:

3. I usually get about 2000 miles per chain on an upright. If the bent
chain is twice as long, should I expect to get 4000 miles out if under
similar conditions? This question is largely academic since I replace
my chains based on stretch, not mileage. I just thought it was worth
soliciting opinions about it.

Most chain wear occurs when the chain is bent around the rear
sprocket(s) under load. On a longer recumbent chain, this obviously
occurs less often, so wear related chain life should generally be
proportional to length.

[1] It should be noted that breaking a chain on a recumbent is less
likely to have the severe negative consequences of doing so on an
upright, since recumbent riders do not stand while pedaling (when
upright chains typically fail).
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

Tom,

Thanks for the thourough reply. So let me see if I have it straight. If
I need the length of a little less than two PC-58 chains for my CLWB
bent, I trim one chain by taking off the extra links with a chain tool
and then join the two chains with two Power Links. Is that right?

rBOB said:

Tom,

Thanks for the thourough reply. So let me see if I have it straight. If
I need the length of a little less than two PC-58 chains for my CLWB
bent, I trim one chain by taking off the extra links with a chain tool
and then join the two chains with two Power Links. Is that right?

That is what I would do.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic tikte glashard:

Quoted message said:

rBOB wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. If OK to combine chains, do I use additional the super links (or
whatever they are called) or is there another preferred way (such as
using the chain tool to combine the chains)?

While there is general consensus that it is fine to join five (5) and
six (6) speed SRAM/Sachs/Sedis chains with pins, it is NOT recommended
for nine (9) and ten (10) speed chains. Seven/eight (7/8) speed chains
can be rejoined with pins, but some have reported failures [1] from
doing so.

Not true. SRAM chains can easily be (re)joined with pins. However,
Shimano chains have 'weaker' pins. I always use this method, and never
had chain breakage on a recumbent (I cycle about 18000 km a year).

/Mars

Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic tikte glashard:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While there is general consensus that it is fine to join five (5) and
six (6) speed SRAM/Sachs/Sedis chains with pins, it is NOT recommended
for nine (9) and ten (10) speed chains. Seven/eight (7/8) speed chains
can be rejoined with pins, but some have reported failures [1] from
doing so.

Mars said:

Not true. SRAM chains can easily be (re)joined with pins. However,
Shimano chains have 'weaker' pins. I always use this method, and never
had chain breakage on a recumbent (I cycle about 18000 km a year).

I don't think this is correct (at least not for 8/9/10 speed chains).
While it is known that Shimano chain links should not be re-used, I
think the same applies to SRAM chains (although this is not as well
known).

I quote Sheldon Brown:

"To withstand these high stresses, modern chains have rivets that are
tighter fitting into the chain plates. The new rivets are difficult to
remove and reinstall without damaging either the rivet or the side
plate."

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

The fact that your chains have not broken is not proof positive that it
is OK to re-use the link.

rBOB said:

Thanks for the thourough reply. So let me see if I have it straight. If
I need the length of a little less than two PC-58 chains for my CLWB
bent, I trim one chain by taking off the extra links with a chain tool
and then join the two chains with two Power Links. Is that right?

That appears to be the standard procedure for the chains on our 'bents
(a Nazca Fiero and HP Vel Streetmachine).

Powerlinks are worth having on in any case as it makes breaking the
chain for cleaning much easier.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

rBOB tikte glashard:

te:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not true. SRAM chains can easily be (re)joined with pins. However,
Shimano chains have 'weaker' pins. I always use this method, and never
had chain breakage on a recumbent (I cycle about 18000 km a year).

I don't think this is correct (at least not for 8/9/10 speed chains).

I'm quite sure it is correct.

Quoted message said:

While it is known that Shimano chain links should not be re-used, I
think the same applies to SRAM chains (although this is not as well
known).

I quote Sheldon Brown:

"To withstand these high stresses, modern chains have rivets that are
tighter fitting into the chain plates. The new rivets are difficult to
remove and reinstall without damaging either the rivet or the side
plate."

Just use the proper tools.

/Mars

Quoted message said:

I'm quite sure it is correct.

Quoted message said:

Just use the proper tools.

Mars,

Excuse me but your response seems condescending. If you would like to
make a strong case, please quote a source other than yourself--as I did
with Sheldon Brown.

rBOB tikte glashard:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm quite sure it is correct.

Quoted message said:

Just use the proper tools.

Mars,

Excuse me but your response seems condescending. If you would like to
make a strong case, please quote a source other than yourself--as I did
with Sheldon Brown.

If something's on Sheldon Brown's site it does not have to be correct.
The pins used in SRAM chains have a tight fit and can be reused. The
thing to be aware of though is that one supports the chain in order to
avoid damage. This is common practice with cycle builders. Quick links
are used to make it easier to remove a chain, but they are not needed.
This technique is for instance used at velomobiel.nl and at Re-Cycle,
both cycle builders in the Netherlands.

/Mars

The Red Planet said:

If something's on Sheldon Brown's site it does not have to be correct.
The pins used in SRAM chains have a tight fit and can be reused. The
thing to be aware of though is that one supports the chain in order to
avoid damage. This is common practice with cycle builders. Quick links
are used to make it easier to remove a chain, but they are not needed.
This technique is for instance used at velomobiel.nl and at Re-Cycle,
both cycle builders in the Netherlands.

What was quoted from my site was:

Quoted message said:

"To withstand these high stresses, modern chains have rivets that are
tighter fitting into the chain plates. The new rivets are difficult to
remove and reinstall without damaging either the rivet or the side
plate."

I said "difficult" not "impossible." A person who is careful and
skilled in the use of a chain tool can generally re-join Sram chains
without damaging them, but it requires careful alignment and a
sensitive touch on the chain tool to make sure the rivet is going in
straight.

Being a bit of a cheapskate, I sometimes make chains up for my personal
use by joining cut off scraps from lots of new chains. I have examined
the rivets and cage plates with a microscope and not observed any
damage from this.

However, I do not do this on customers' bikes as much for reasons of
potential liability as anything else.

The chain tool is a tool that requires more skill than most. It's one
tool I'll never lend because a careless or insensitive user can easily
wreck one. I still own and sometimes use an old Cyclo chain tool that
I bought when I was in high school more than 40 years ago.

I tend to be rather experimental in configuring my own bikes, but
conservative when dealing with customers' bikes where somebody else's
skin is on the line.

Sheldon "Standing By What I Wrote" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Give a man a fire, and he will stay warm for a day. |
| Set a man on fire, he stays warm for the rest of his life. |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Mars said:

If something's on Sheldon Brown's site it does not have to be correct.

But most probably is.

Rich

Rich tikte glashard:

Quoted message said:

Mars said:

If something's on Sheldon Brown's site it does not have to be correct.

But most probably is.

You're right. But as Sheldon said himself he wrote that it was difficult
to reuse pins; so its in the hands of the mechanic.

/Mars

Sheldon, thanks for the clarifications. Very informative!

Quoted message said:

I said "difficult" not "impossible." A person who is careful and
skilled in the use of a chain tool can generally re-join Sram chains
without damaging them, but it requires careful alignment and a
sensitive touch on the chain tool to make sure the rivet is going in
straight.

Case in point: when visiting NL to try out various 'bents, both the
places we went (Ligfietscentrum in Briel and Ligfietswinkel in
Amsterdam) adjusted chain length on every single try out by popping
links in and out of the chain with a tool. You could see that both were
/very/ experienced with chain tools and could've done it with their eyes
shut. In comparison, I use a chain tool about once every 2 or 3 years,
and am paranoid and slow and clumsy with them (so I use Powerlinks!).
But if you're a dab hand with a chain tool it looks like they can be
used frequently and easily without undue problems.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:39:46 +0000, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> said in <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Case in point: when visiting NL to try out various 'bents, both the
places we went (Ligfietscentrum in Briel and Ligfietswinkel in
Amsterdam) adjusted chain length on every single try out by popping
links in and out of the chain with a tool. You could see that both were
/very/ experienced with chain tools and could've done it with their eyes
shut. In comparison, I use a chain tool about once every 2 or 3 years,
and am paranoid and slow and clumsy with them (so I use Powerlinks!).
But if you're a dab hand with a chain tool it looks like they can be
used frequently and easily without undue problems.

Shimano 9-speeds allegedly require special treatment, but I have
frequently split and rejoined Sram 9-speed chains with a chain tool
and it's trivially easy, and I've never broken one either.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

Just zis Guy said:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:39:46 +0000, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> said in <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Case in point: when visiting NL to try out various 'bents, both the
places we went (Ligfietscentrum in Briel and Ligfietswinkel in
Amsterdam) adjusted chain length on every single try out by popping
links in and out of the chain with a tool. You could see that both were
/very/ experienced with chain tools and could've done it with their eyes
shut. In comparison, I use a chain tool about once every 2 or 3 years,
and am paranoid and slow and clumsy with them (so I use Powerlinks!).
But if you're a dab hand with a chain tool it looks like they can be
used frequently and easily without undue problems.

Shimano 9-speeds allegedly require special treatment, but I have
frequently split and rejoined S[RAM]ram 9-speed chains with a chain tool
and it's trivially easy, and I've never broken one either.

An upright rider I know had the 9-speed Shimano chain on his bicycle
break on an invitational ride. I spent 20+ minutes with a Park CT-5
chain tool [1] fruitlessly trying to piece the chain together (neither
the special Shimano pins nor non-Shimano reusable links were at hand).
I gave up and lent the rider money to buy a new SRAM chain (Power Link
included) from the SAG.

[1] <http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=5&item=CT-5>.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"Twisting may help if yawl can chew gum and walk." - G. Daniels