Hub Question

"Eric St. Mary" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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I'm trying to decide on what type of rear hub to get; its either going to be a Chris King or Phil
Wood. I don't currently need the disc type for any reason, in the future, as these hubs are
supposed to last "forever", I may. Is there any reason not to purchase a disc compatible hub,
excluding the few extra bucks, when building up a new wheel?

Eric

1. weight
2. dish in the front wheel
3. you don't need it (but when has THAT ever stopped anyone?)

There's always going to be specials on disc wheels, etc. why pay for something you don't need?

Mike

"Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message news:ZxR_a.258$cj1.93@fed1read06...

Quoted message said:

"Eric St. Mary" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to decide on what type of rear hub to get; its either going to be a Chris King or
Phil Wood. I don't currently need the disc type for any reason, in the future, as these hubs are
supposed to last "forever", I may. Is there any reason not to purchase a disc compatible hub,
excluding the few extra bucks, when building up a new wheel?

Eric

1. weight

Chris King specs: Classic: 112g front, 268g rear. Disc: ISO 166g front, 306g rear. Total gain: 110g,
or a bit under a quarter of a pound. Unless you're a major weight weenie, thats really not all that
much extra weight. Yeah, if you're building a superlightweight racing machine, then go for the
classics. Actually, go for the American Classic or WTB ones, they're lighter. But if he's
considering Phil Woods, which are heavy anyway, then why not sacrifice a tiny bit of weight for a
much more versatile wheelset?

Quoted message said:

2. dish in the front wheel

The spoke lengths in my front WTB Laserdisc Lite wheels were 2mm different. And how about this: You
get less dish in the rear wheel.

Quoted message said:

3. you don't need it (but when has THAT ever stopped anyone?)

But if he's planning on upgrading later ("In the future... I may"😉, he's saving himself a lot of
money now. The disc hubs are about $30 more for the pair, on a $400 set of hubs. Thats not even 10%.
But if you buy non disc wheels now, and decide to go disc sometime in the future, you have to buy a
whole new set of $400 hubs, PLUS new spokes, PLUS have the whole wheel relaced. You might as well
get new rims too, since you're changing everything else. And guess what? Thats another $600 wheelset
you're buying. Ok, so you can change the rear hub internals over, and save maybe $100, but still -
Why not pay a tiny bit more now to save a crapload of money down the line? Not to mention resale
value - fewer and fewer high end mountain bikes are coming with rim brakes, and for good reason.

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There's always going to be specials on disc wheels, etc. why pay for something you don't need?

Nobody "NEEDS" chris king or phil wood hubs, period. They're luxury items, plain and simple. So is a
high end mountain bike. And finding a well built Chris King Disc wheel on sale is not easy - the
cheapest I could find (at jensonusa.com) were $465, which is actually a hell of a good deal, but is
still not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.

About a year ago I bought new wheels, rim brake. I just built up a new bike and put discs on it.
Now my nice, handbuilt wheelset from the old bike (the frame cracked) is sitting in my basement,
not getting any use. I might put them back on whatever frame the company sends back, because its
fork doesn't have disc tabs, and use it as my singlespeed, but I should have just bought a disc
wheelset and either had a spare set of disc wheels now just in case, or not had to drop another
$400 on a new wheelset.

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Mike

Jon Bond (btw, chris kings are lighter, phil woods are a bit heavier, but pretty bombproof. Not that
the King's aren't. I'd personaly go king, as long as you can stand the beehive sound!)

[email hidden] schreef ...

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Nobody "NEEDS" chris king or phil wood hubs, period. They're luxury items, plain and simple.

Unless you ride off-road tandems. Then a CK (and probably a Phil Wood) puts an end to the misery of
continuous rear hub desintegration.

--
Regards, Marten

I have Phil Woods (disc) front and rear. They're way over twenty thousand miles old - near thirty
thousand. Have you ever worn out a freehub clutch? I doubt it since few wheels, being disposable
boutique items, are kept long enough to do so. I cannot speak highly enough of PWs.

"Jon Bond" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Quoted message said:

"Eric St. Mary" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to decide on what type of rear hub to get; its either going to be a Chris King or
Phil Wood. I don't currently need the disc type for any reason, in the future, as these hubs
are supposed to last "forever", I may. Is there any reason not to purchase a disc

compatible

Quoted message said:

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hub, excluding the few extra bucks, when building up a new wheel?

Eric

Nobody "NEEDS" chris king or phil wood hubs, period. They're luxury

items,

Quoted message said:

plain and simple. So is a high end mountain bike. And finding a well

built

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Chris King Disc wheel on sale is not easy - the cheapest I could find (at jensonusa.com) were
$465, which is actually a hell of a good deal, but is still not cheap by any stretch of the
imagination.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug Huffman
[B]I have Phil Woods (disc) front and rear. They're way over twenty thousand miles old - near thirty
thousand. Have you ever worn out a freehub clutch?

That is the exact reason I am getting a new hub, my rear Mavic Speedcity wheel is suffering from lack of freehub spin. This wheel has been serving as my commuting, road and cyclocross wheel for a while now, I think over a year but I am not for sure. When I spin it by hand and let the freehub "click" it is only a half a turn, compared to 2-3 on my other bikes.

Eric

"> > > I'm trying to decide on what type of rear hub to get; its either going

Quoted message said:

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to be a Chris King or Phil Wood. I don't currently need the disc type for any reason, in the
future, as these hubs are supposed to last "forever", I may. Is there any reason not to
purchase a disc

compatible

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hub, excluding the few extra bucks, when building up a new wheel?

Eric

1. weight

Chris King specs: Classic: 112g front, 268g rear. Disc: ISO 166g front, 306g rear. Total gain:
110g, or a bit under a quarter of a pound. Unless you're a major weight weenie, thats really not
all that much extra weight. Yeah, if you're building a superlightweight racing machine, then go
for the classics. Actually, go for the American Classic or WTB ones, they're lighter. But if he's
considering Phil Woods, which are heavy anyway, then why not sacrifice a tiny bit of weight for a
much more versatile wheelset?

Versatile for whom? The guy that buys them when he wants to change the color of his hubs? If he's
not using the discs, then why pay the weight penalty at all? If the disc upgrade was say, next year,
I'd say go for it, but if the OP isn't planning on going disc any time real soon, why bother?

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2. dish in the front wheel

The spoke lengths in my front WTB Laserdisc Lite wheels were 2mm

different.

Quoted message said:

And how about this: You get less dish in the rear wheel.

Quoted message said:

3. you don't need it (but when has THAT ever stopped anyone?)

But if he's planning on upgrading later ("In the future... I may"😉, he's saving himself a lot of
money now. The disc hubs are about $30 more for

the

Quoted message said:

pair, on a $400 set of hubs. Thats not even 10%. But if you buy non disc wheels now, and decide to
go disc sometime in the future, you have to buy

a

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whole new set of $400 hubs, PLUS new spokes, PLUS have the whole wheel relaced.

Yeah, and he can probably sell off the wheelset to someone on
r.b.marketplace to offset the costs, or heaven forbid, buy a set of used wheels for "cheap." (as if
a PW disc wheelset ever is...) There's always someone selling something fancy for a lot less
that you can buy new. Ask me about my $90 Nuke Proof/517 wheelset...

You might as well get new rims too, since you're changing

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everything else. And guess what? Thats another $600 wheelset you're buying. Ok, so you can change
the rear hub internals over, and save maybe $100, but still - Why not pay a tiny bit more now to
save a crapload of money down the line? Not to mention resale value - fewer and fewer high

end

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mountain bikes are coming with rim brakes, and for good reason.

Hey, gotta point out that "standards" change. Who is to say that when the OP is ready to go disc,
that there isn't some new proprietary mounting system (XTR!) that makes the purchase of disc hubs
now obsolete? I know that there's going to be something that he can do, just like there are people
still running 6/7sp stuff here...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There's always going to be specials on disc wheels, etc. why pay for something you don't need?

Nobody "NEEDS" chris king or phil wood hubs, period. They're luxury

items,

Quoted message said:

plain and simple. So is a high end mountain bike. And finding a well

built

Quoted message said:

Chris King Disc wheel on sale is not easy - the cheapest I could find (at jensonusa.com) were
$465, which is actually a hell of a good deal, but is still not cheap by any stretch of the
imagination.

About a year ago I bought new wheels, rim brake. I just built up a new

bike

Quoted message said:

and put discs on it. Now my nice, handbuilt wheelset from the old bike

(the

Quoted message said:

frame cracked) is sitting in my basement, not getting any use. I might

put

Quoted message said:

them back on whatever frame the company sends back, because its fork

doesn't

Quoted message said:

have disc tabs, and use it as my singlespeed, but I should have just

bought

Quoted message said:

a disc wheelset and either had a spare set of disc wheels now just in

case,

Quoted message said:

or not had to drop another $400 on a new wheelset.

I wish I had hindsight glasses like they're using those TV ads... Woulda, coulda, shoulda and we'd
all be millionaires!

Mike

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Quoted message said:

Mike

Jon Bond (btw, chris kings are lighter, phil woods are a bit heavier, but pretty bombproof. Not
that the King's aren't. I'd personaly go king, as long as you can stand the beehive sound!)

Jon Bond said:

Mike S.' mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet said:

Eric St. Mary said:

Is there any reason not to purchase a disc compatible hub, excluding the few extra bucks, when
building up a new wheel?

2. dish in the front wheel

The spoke lengths in my front WTB Laserdisc Lite wheels were 2mm different. And how about this:
You get less dish in the rear wheel.

The reduction in strength of a dished wheel is on the same order as the reduction in tension in
the looser side's spokes. That means you can wind up trading off _half_ of the strength in your
front wheel to have it "disc ready". This degree of weakening can't be worth it if you are hard on
your wheels.

At least your rim won't be hitting the brake pads when the wheel collapses. :-)

The wider front axle spacing of 20mm front disc hubs (110mm IIRC) was intended to address the
grievous structural shortcoming of front disc wheels.

Chalo Colina

Chalo said:

Jon Bond said:

Mike S.' mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet said:

"Eric St. Mary" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>Is there any reason not to purchase a disc compatible hub, excluding the few extra bucks, when
>building up a new wheel?
>

2. dish in the front wheel

The spoke lengths in my front WTB Laserdisc Lite wheels were 2mm different. And how about this:
You get less dish in the rear wheel.

The reduction in strength of a dished wheel is on the same order as the reduction in tension in
the looser side's spokes. That means you can wind up trading off _half_ of the strength in your
front wheel to have it "disc ready". This degree of weakening can't be worth it if you are hard on
your wheels.

At least your rim won't be hitting the brake pads when the wheel collapses. :-)

The wider front axle spacing of 20mm front disc hubs (110mm IIRC) was intended to address the
grievous structural shortcoming of front disc wheels.

Who's hard on their front rims? I've never had a problem with one -- they last forever. It's the
back ones that I keep breaking. I really wish that I'd gone 36 hole when I bought the Chris King...

David

David Kunz said:

Chalo said:

The reduction in strength of a dished wheel is on the same order as the reduction in tension in
the looser side's spokes. That means you can wind up trading off _half_ of the strength in your
front wheel to have it "disc ready".

Who's hard on their front rims? I've never had a problem with one -- they last forever. It's the
back ones that I keep breaking.

Front wheels may not bear as much static weight as rears, but they must withstand more side loads
and braking loads than rear wheels. The reason fronts hold up better that rears is because most of
them are dishless and most rear wheels are dished. On up-to-date bikes with about 2:1 left:right
flange spacing in the rear, a symmetrical front is about twice as capable of withstanding loads.

Disc wheelsets tend to reverse this inequality, with more equal tension in the rear and a heavily
dished front wheel.

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I really wish that I'd gone 36 hole when I bought the Chris King...

48 spokes make for a stronger wheel yet, and a prettier one too. 48
15/17ga. spokes weigh a bit less than 36 14/15ga. spokes to boot. If you want strong wheels, and
you're going to part with the insane amount of money required to buy Chris King or Phil Wood
hubs, it seems like a no-brainer to make them 48 hole models.

Chalo Colina

Chalo said:

David Kunz said:

Chalo said:

The reduction in strength of a dished wheel is on the same order as the reduction in tension in
the looser side's spokes. That means you can wind up trading off _half_ of the strength in your
front wheel to have it "disc ready".

Who's hard on their front rims? I've never had a problem with one -- they last forever. It's the
back ones that I keep breaking.

Front wheels may not bear as much static weight as rears, but they must withstand more side loads
and braking loads than rear wheels. The reason fronts hold up better that rears is because most of
them are dishless and most rear wheels are dished. On up-to-date bikes with about 2:1 left:right
flange spacing in the rear, a symmetrical front is about twice as capable of withstanding loads.

I was talking about disc wheels -- I should have been clearer. I've totalled 4 rear rims since I
put this front rim on and it shows no signs of problems. I tension my rims to 120 kg on the drive
side in the rear and disc side in the front. I usually end up at about 80 kg on the other side in
the rear -- it's been a while since I needed to build a front and don't remember what they turn
out to be 🙂.

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Disc wheelsets tend to reverse this inequality, with more equal tension in the rear and a heavily
dished front wheel.

I understand the theory -- I'm just talking experience (and I'm a clydesdale -- 220-235 depending on
how much riding I'm getting in 🙂). All I was saying is that strong enough is strong enough 🙂.

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I really wish that I'd gone 36 hole when I bought the Chris King...

48 spokes make for a stronger wheel yet, and a prettier one too. 48
15/17ga. spokes weigh a bit less than 36 14/15ga. spokes to boot. If you want strong wheels, and
you're going to part with the insane amount of money required to buy Chris King or Phil Wood
hubs, it seems like a no-brainer to make them 48 hole models.

Never considered 48 -- didn't know that they existed! If my Chris King ever wears out, or when this
bike becomes my beater and I buy a new one, I'll check it out 🙂.

David

[email hidden] schreef ...

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Chalo wrote:

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48 spokes make for a stronger wheel yet, and a prettier one too. 48
15/17ga. spokes weigh a bit less than 36 14/15ga. spokes to boot. If you want strong wheels, and
you're going to part with the insane amount of money required to buy Chris King or Phil Wood
hubs, it seems like a no-brainer to make them 48 hole models.

Never considered 48 -- didn't know that they existed! If my Chris King ever wears out, or when
this bike becomes my beater and I buy a new one, I'll check it out 🙂.

FWIW: 48 spoke wheels are quite common in tandems, mostly in 700c-wheels to make them strong enough
for loaded touring. Some people even ride 48- spoke 26"-wheels which, unless you're *very* heavy,
makes no real sense.

We've ridden 36-spoke rear wheels in our tandems since 1990 and have had only a few broken spokes.
And most of these breakages occured when we had a rim where the spoke holes (as it turned out) were
perpendicular to the rim instead of slighty offset. So the spokes started breaking at the nipple
(small wonder).

There is another point to bear in mind when going for an 48-spoke wheel: the hub flanges must have
enough "flesh" left after drilling 48 holes to keep the spokes where they belong. It wouldn't be the
first time the flange breaks due to a lack of material!

--
Regards, Marten

Thanks to all, for your advice and opinions. I decided to go with a 36H disc hub. I found a NOS Chris King Disco Tech 36H with the ISO adapter at speedgoat.com for $150 and have it along with a MA3 rim on the way. My rear wheel will run much less than a new fancy integrated CK or Phil Wood, oh how I would still like to have the phil. If anyone wants to trade me an has a 36H 135mm spaced Phil disc or nondisc let me know.

Eric