Noisy Chain

Roger Zoul said:

My chain has about 4000 miles on it. Bikes 2 yrs old this month. 105
components except for the rear 9-speed cassettee which is ultegra. I
got that when I bought new wheels last year.

Anyhow, of late, it seems like I get a lot of extra noise from the
chain when I get up to the higher gears on the rear. The noise seem
be present no matter if I'm on the middle or large chainring in the
front. It's irritating and doesn't seem any too good for the
drivetrain. I've been reading Zinn's book on road bike maintenance,
but so far haven't got to anything that specifically calls out this
problem (other things chain related are mentioned, but they don't
seem to apply).
Could this be a derailer issue or chain stretch? I'm going to put on
one of those powerlink chains in a few. Perhaps that will fix the
problem with no other adjustments?

Check that chain, like, yesterday! However, I bet it's just cable stretch,
and all you have to do is tighten the adjuster about 3/4's of a turn. (The
noise is in the /smaller/ cogs in back, right?)

BTW, you might notice a little /more/ noise after installing the quik-link,
but it's still worth it. (Mine seems to tick the FD and/or something else
once in a while.)

Bill "headphones help" S.

Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:52:24 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Roger Zoul said:

My chain has about 4000 miles on it.

That's about a 1200 miles more than the point at which I replace mine.
I don't spend big bucks on chain anymore but I stopped buying the
cheapest ones. (they break too easily)

Measure it. If you get twelve and a sixteenth inches between pins,
you're due for a new one. It saves wear and tear on the cassette.
--
zk

Bill Sornson <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> Roger Zoul wrote:
:>> My chain has about 4000 miles on it. Bikes 2 yrs old this month.
:>> 105 components except for the rear 9-speed cassettee which is
:>> ultegra. I
:>> got that when I bought new wheels last year.
:>>
:>> Anyhow, of late, it seems like I get a lot of extra noise from the
:>> chain when I get up to the higher gears on the rear. The noise seem
:>> be present no matter if I'm on the middle or large chainring in the
:>> front. It's irritating and doesn't seem any too good for the
:>> drivetrain. I've been reading Zinn's book on road bike maintenance,
:>> but so far haven't got to anything that specifically calls out this
:>> problem (other things chain related are mentioned, but they don't
:>> seem to apply).
:>> Could this be a derailer issue or chain stretch? I'm going to put
:>> on
:>> one of those powerlink chains in a few. Perhaps that will fix the
:>> problem with no other adjustments?
:>
:> Check that chain, like, yesterday! However, I bet it's just cable
:> stretch, and all you have to do is tighten the adjuster about 3/4's
:> of a turn. (The noise is in the /smaller/ cogs in back, right?)

What is the adjuster?

Yes, the noise is definite in the /smaller/ cogs at the back, but the source
of the noise is the chain rubbing on the metal body of the FD. I can see a
good deal of bend (front to back) even on the biggest chainring. Is that
right? I'm wondering if the FD is bent inward toward the centerline of the
bike.

:>
:> BTW, you might notice a little /more/ noise after installing the
:> quik-link, but it's still worth it. (Mine seems to tick the FD
:> and/or something else once in a while.)
:>
:> Bill "headphones help" S.

Yes, I wear headphones but I can still hear the sound and I'm not nearly in
high enough gear when it start chattering.

Zoot Katz <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:52:24 -0400,
:> <[email hidden]>, "Roger Zoul"
:> <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:>>My chain has about 4000 miles on it.
:>
:> That's about a 1200 miles more than the point at which I replace
:> mine. I don't spend big bucks on chain anymore but I stopped buying
:> the cheapest ones. (they break too easily)
:>
:> Measure it. If you get twelve and a sixteenth inches between pins,
:> you're due for a new one. It saves wear and tear on the cassette.

It's at least 1/16-inch too long, measured with sag in the chain.....

Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:09:01 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Roger Zoul said:

It's at least 1/16-inch too long, measured with sag in the chain.....

The chain has to be laid flat, supported along its length or stretched
taut for an accurate measurement. There's a tool made for the job
though I've not found it necessary.
--
zk

Zoot Katz <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:09:01 -0400,
:> <[email hidden]>, "Roger Zoul"
:> <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:>>
:>>It's at least 1/16-inch too long, measured with sag in the chain.....
:>
:> The chain has to be laid flat, supported along its length or
:> stretched taut for an accurate measurement. There's a tool made for
:> the job though I've not found it necessary.

No matter....the old chain is off and the new one is on.

Besides, I was measuring along 12 links with sag...if the chain had been
proper length, then sag should have made it appear shorter, not longer than
12 inches.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Zoot Katz <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:09:01 -0400,
:> <[email hidden]>, "Roger Zoul"
:> <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:>>
:>>It's at least 1/16-inch too long, measured with sag in the chain.....
:>
:> The chain has to be laid flat, supported along its length or
:> stretched taut for an accurate measurement. There's a tool made for
:> the job though I've not found it necessary.

No matter....the old chain is off and the new one is on.

Did the noise go away?

-Bob

Hell and High Water said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Zoot Katz <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:09:01 -0400,
:> <[email hidden]>, "Roger Zoul"
:> <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:>>
:>>It's at least 1/16-inch too long, measured with sag in the chain.....
:>
:> The chain has to be laid flat, supported along its length or
:> stretched taut for an accurate measurement. There's a tool made for
:> the job though I've not found it necessary.

No matter....the old chain is off and the new one is on.

Did the noise go away?

Not to sound sarcastic, but do you hear it anymore?

I don't.

Nice job, Roger!
--
Live simply so that others may simply live

In article <[email hidden]>, Neil0502
@yahoo.com says...

Quoted message said:

Hell and High Water said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Zoot Katz <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:09:01 -0400,
:> <[email hidden]>, "Roger Zoul"
:> <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:>>
:>>It's at least 1/16-inch too long, measured with sag in the chain.....
:>
:> The chain has to be laid flat, supported along its length or
:> stretched taut for an accurate measurement. There's a tool made for
:> the job though I've not found it necessary.

No matter....the old chain is off and the new one is on.

Did the noise go away?

Not to sound sarcastic, but do you hear it anymore?

I don't.

Nice job, Roger!

Well, I never heard it anyway, so this whole thing has been
unnecessary...

;-)

-Bob

Hell and High Water <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> In article <[email hidden]>,
:> [email hidden] says...
:>> Zoot Katz <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>> :> Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:09:01 -0400,
:>> :> <[email hidden]>, "Roger Zoul"
:>> :> <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>> :>
:>> :>>
:>> :>>It's at least 1/16-inch too long, measured with sag in the
:>> :>>chain.....
:>> :>
:>> :> The chain has to be laid flat, supported along its length or
:>> :> stretched taut for an accurate measurement. There's a tool made
:>> :> for the job though I've not found it necessary.
:>>
:>> No matter....the old chain is off and the new one is on.
:>
:>
:> Did the noise go away?

Well, some of it did. For example, I don't hear noise in the middle front
and small back...but I do hear noise on the big front and smallest back. I
used to hear noise when in the middle front and middle back, and in every
smaller cog. What a headache. So, from that POV, things have improved.

However, I think my front derailer needs some attention...so I'm reading up
on that now.
I find sometimes when I'm flying down the road that if I try to shift up, it
won't go. I either have to try again later or wait for a terrain change, or
something. Kind of irritating, if you ask me. Another thing it will do
is - partially move - that is, it seems to stop somewhere in between two
rings, atwhich point the drivechain becomes noisy...unusally the solultion
is to hit the front shifter again, and then the derailer moves into the
correct position and the noise stops. And finally, the most irritating
thing that happens is when I shift down and the chain drops from the big
chainring to the smallest. That can hurt if you're not ready. I have
learned to look down and actually stop pedalling for a moment and watch as
the chain moves from the big ring to the middle. If I do that, I can
control the motion and prevent the chain from going to the small ring
(mostly). It only takes an instant, but it seems like too much thinking
while riding down the road (and while explaining it in writing).

The rear derailer seems to work fine.

: However, I think my front derailer needs some attention...so I'm reading
up
: on that now.
: I find sometimes when I'm flying down the road that if I try to shift up,
it
: won't go.

This just might be indicative that your crank arm is loose. I had this
happen to me on a charity ride. At the next rest stop, there just happened
to be a mechanic. Sure enough, the right crank arm was loose and the front
derailleur was trying to shift the chain onto a moving target---moving in
and out, that is!

Pat in TX

Pat wrote:
::: However, I think my front derailer needs some attention...so I'm
::: reading up on that now.
::: I find sometimes when I'm flying down the road that if I try to
::: shift up, it won't go.
::
:: This just might be indicative that your crank arm is loose. I had
:: this happen to me on a charity ride. At the next rest stop, there
:: just happened to be a mechanic. Sure enough, the right crank arm
:: was loose and the front derailleur was trying to shift the chain
:: onto a moving target---moving in and out, that is!

Interesting...hadn't even considered such. It is easy to tell if the crank
arm is loose? Will it move easily by hand or it is an "under load" kind of
thing? I'll definitely look into it. Thanks.

Roger Zoul said:

Pat wrote:
::: However, I think my front derailer needs some attention...so I'm
::: reading up on that now.
::: I find sometimes when I'm flying down the road that if I try to
::: shift up, it won't go.
::
:: This just might be indicative that your crank arm is loose. I had
:: this happen to me on a charity ride. At the next rest stop, there
:: just happened to be a mechanic. Sure enough, the right crank arm
:: was loose and the front derailleur was trying to shift the chain
:: onto a moving target---moving in and out, that is!

Interesting...hadn't even considered such. It is easy to tell if the crank
arm is loose? Will it move easily by hand or it is an "under load" kind of
thing? I'll definitely look into it. Thanks.

Hi Roger, you may have to remove the chain, either to the inside or
outside, to be able to check if the crank is loose. Odds are, it
isn't. It sounds to me like your cable needs adjusting.

On the downtube, there should be barrel adjusters, up closer to the
headtube, than the bottom bracket. while sitting on the bike[not that
you need to, just for direction] turn the left side adjuster out,
clockwise. One easy way to see if the cable needs tightening, is to
shift into the big ring, as far up as the shifter will move it. Then
take a hold of the cage and pull it out towards you, if it moves out
at all, the cable isn't tight enough. That would also explain why it
sometimes shifts from the large ring to the small, skipping the
middle. It is starting its measured move too far to the inside.

Also examine the cable for fraying, twice when my front shifting went
bad, I found that the cable was going bad. I would adjust it and it
would be fine for a while, then fray some more. Cables are cheap, you
should probably have a spare shifter and a spare brake cable, on the
shelf, anyway. So buy two shifter cables, one to use, one for the
shelf. Few things are worse than needing a cable when the LBS is
closed.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Jeff Starr wrote:
:: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:21:34 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: Pat wrote:
:::::: However, I think my front derailer needs some attention...so I'm
:::::: reading up on that now.
:::::: I find sometimes when I'm flying down the road that if I try to
:::::: shift up, it won't go.
:::::
::::: This just might be indicative that your crank arm is loose. I had
::::: this happen to me on a charity ride. At the next rest stop, there
::::: just happened to be a mechanic. Sure enough, the right crank arm
::::: was loose and the front derailleur was trying to shift the chain
::::: onto a moving target---moving in and out, that is!
:::
::: Interesting...hadn't even considered such. It is easy to tell if
::: the crank arm is loose? Will it move easily by hand or it is an
::: "under load" kind of thing? I'll definitely look into it. Thanks.
:::
::
:: Hi Roger, you may have to remove the chain, either to the inside or
:: outside, to be able to check if the crank is loose. Odds are, it
:: isn't. It sounds to me like your cable needs adjusting.
::
:: On the downtube, there should be barrel adjusters, up closer to the
:: headtube, than the bottom bracket. while sitting on the bike[not that
:: you need to, just for direction] turn the left side adjuster out,
:: clockwise. One easy way to see if the cable needs tightening, is to
:: shift into the big ring, as far up as the shifter will move it. Then
:: take a hold of the cage and pull it out towards you, if it moves out
:: at all, the cable isn't tight enough. That would also explain why it
:: sometimes shifts from the large ring to the small, skipping the
:: middle. It is starting its measured move too far to the inside.
::
:: Also examine the cable for fraying, twice when my front shifting went
:: bad, I found that the cable was going bad. I would adjust it and it
:: would be fine for a while, then fray some more. Cables are cheap, you
:: should probably have a spare shifter and a spare brake cable, on the
:: shelf, anyway. So buy two shifter cables, one to use, one for the
:: shelf. Few things are worse than needing a cable when the LBS is
:: closed.

Thanks, Jeff. I'll certainly be looking into this. I'm having fun working
my way through one bike system as a time like this. I will get some cables
for the shelf. Even though I like the folks at my LBS, I like being free of
them for stuff like this. It's so much easier to do things yourself when
you need it done (there is always a wait at the LBS during riding season).

One more thing I'm wondering about. Is it common for the chain to rub
against the front derailer when its on the big chainwheel and one of the
smaller cogs in the rear? That's a big-small combination which I thought
was okay, as opposed to a big-big or a small-small combo which crosses the
chain. Chain rubbing seems like a bad thing and I can't imagine derailers
being designed to allow such under normal operation. I do remember having
this rubbing from the very beginning when I got this bike, but I somehow
though that was just a limitation of the drivetrain....also, I guess I
thought that big-small was not a good combo as whenever I went into it I got
noise.

Roger Zoul said:

Thanks, Jeff. I'll certainly be looking into this. I'm having fun working
my way through one bike system as a time like this. I will get some cables
for the shelf. Even though I like the folks at my LBS, I like being free of
them for stuff like this. It's so much easier to do things yourself when
you need it done (there is always a wait at the LBS during riding season).

One more thing I'm wondering about. Is it common for the chain to rub
against the front derailer when its on the big chainwheel and one of the
smaller cogs in the rear? That's a big-small combination which I thought
was okay, as opposed to a big-big or a small-small combo which crosses the
chain. Chain rubbing seems like a bad thing and I can't imagine derailers
being designed to allow such under normal operation. I do remember having
this rubbing from the very beginning when I got this bike, but I somehow
though that was just a limitation of the drivetrain....also, I guess I
thought that big-small was not a good combo as whenever I went into it I got
noise.

Roger, there should be no rubbing in any of the big-small
combinations. When set up reasonably well, you may have some rubbing
in the big-big and the largest 2 or 3 sprockets. If it is rubbing in
the big-small combo, it just means that your FD needs adjusting. Start
by checking the cable, if it still rubs, when the cable is pulling it
out as far as it will go, then you need to adjust one of the screws.
You can find that info, on Park Tool, Shimano technical, and probably
Sheldon has it too.

In the recommended combinations:
small ring - 3-4 largest cogs
middle ring - all cogs but maybe the 2 smallest
large ring - all but the 2-3 largest
You should have no rubbing. You may have to use the trimming function
of your shifter, to accomplish this.

The above is my idea of recommended combinations and may not be what
others, or the experts know to be the manufacturers specs. But, it
works for me.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Jeff Starr <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:16:19 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:> <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:>
:>>
:>>Thanks, Jeff. I'll certainly be looking into this. I'm having fun
:>>working my way through one bike system as a time like this. I will
:>>get some cables for the shelf. Even though I like the folks at my
:>>LBS, I like being free of them for stuff like this. It's so much
:>>easier to do things yourself when you need it done (there is always
:>>a wait at the LBS during riding season).
:>>
:>>One more thing I'm wondering about. Is it common for the chain to rub
:>>against the front derailer when its on the big chainwheel and one of
:>>the smaller cogs in the rear? That's a big-small combination which
:>>I thought was okay, as opposed to a big-big or a small-small combo
:>>which crosses the chain. Chain rubbing seems like a bad thing and I
:>>can't imagine derailers being designed to allow such under normal
:>>operation. I do remember having this rubbing from the very
:>>beginning when I got this bike, but I somehow though that was just a
:>>limitation of the drivetrain....also, I guess I thought that
:>>big-small was not a good combo as whenever I went into it I got
:>>noise.
:>>
:>
:> Roger, there should be no rubbing in any of the big-small
:> combinations. When set up reasonably well, you may have some rubbing
:> in the big-big and the largest 2 or 3 sprockets. If it is rubbing in
:> the big-small combo, it just means that your FD needs adjusting.
:> Start
:> by checking the cable, if it still rubs, when the cable is pulling it
:> out as far as it will go, then you need to adjust one of the screws.
:> You can find that info, on Park Tool, Shimano technical, and probably
:> Sheldon has it too.
:>
:> In the recommended combinations:
:> small ring - 3-4 largest cogs
:> middle ring - all cogs but maybe the 2 smallest
:> large ring - all but the 2-3 largest
:> You should have no rubbing. You may have to use the trimming function
:> of your shifter, to accomplish this.
:>
:> The above is my idea of recommended combinations and may not be what
:> others, or the experts know to be the manufacturers specs. But, it
:> works for me.

Thanks, Jeff. That's helps be sort out what I should be looking for.

Roger Zoul said:

[...replaced his chain, which was somewhat overdue...]

However, I think my front derailer needs some attention...so I'm reading up
on that now.

FWIW, you can download the complete adjustment procedures in PDF format
from Shimano's website.

Quoted message said:

I find sometimes when I'm flying down the road that if I try to shift up, it
won't go. I either have to try again later or wait for a terrain change, or
something. Kind of irritating, if you ask me.

As Jeff wrote, this is indicative of slack in the cable. I had the
same problem. I adjusted the cable. Problem solved.

Quoted message said:

Another thing it will do
is - partially move - that is, it seems to stop somewhere in between two
rings, atwhich point the drivechain becomes noisy...unusally the solultion
is to hit the front shifter again, and then the derailer moves into the
correct position and the noise stops.

Ah. I often have to hit the brifter twice to get from the small ring
to the middle ring. You may have noticed that you can use a sort of
half-shift, when in the middle ring, to trim the derailler when you are
moving the chain over a wider range of cogs in the rear. This is why
you have this "problem."

Quoted message said:

And finally, the most irritating
thing that happens is when I shift down and the chain drops from the big
chainring to the smallest. That can hurt if you're not ready. I have
learned to look down and actually stop pedalling for a moment and watch as
the chain moves from the big ring to the middle. If I do that, I can
control the motion and prevent the chain from going to the small ring
(mostly). It only takes an instant, but it seems like too much thinking
while riding down the road (and while explaining it in writing).

This one I have not been able to fix with any amount of fiddling. It
just seems to be endemic to the Shimano 105 triple. I have developed a
habit of popping the black lever to downshift from the big ring to the
middle ring and then quickly partly moving the silver lever (but not
enough to get it to click) to bounce the chain off the derailleur, so
that I limit it from falling all the way to the small ring. This works
most of the time. Of course, it failed me on my last TT. :-(

I highly suggest investing in a chain catcher of some sort. I bought
an N-GEAR Jump Stop, and I am so thrilled about never dropping the
damned chain on the bottom bracket any more that words fail me. It's
the best 30 grams you can add to your bike.

--
Chris BeHanna
'03 Specialized Allez Elite 27
'04 Specialized Hardrock Pro Disc

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