Threaded vs threadless headsets

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

So I should spend $300 to retrofit my bike for something that will
probably never happen? :P

No. If you need to get new fork or if you get a new bike, threadless
would be the way to go.

Quoted message said:

By "limp home" I mean stop every ten miles and crank down the
nut--ohhh, my what a hassle.

Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes the nut will come loose in less than 10 miles.

Quoted message said:

They're a bit stiffer, but the convenience factor is overrated, quills
are simple stuff too.

True. But the headset adjustment is so much simpler with threadless.

Quoted message said:

Anyhoo headsets=boring. Grease them and forget them. My next one will
be threadless most likely, and just as thrilling. (not)

Yup, if you buy a new bike, it is very difficult to find one with a threaded
headset.
-------------
Alex

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Threaded worked well for over a century and was a good system.
Threadless was foisted by shock makers, most noteably Rockshox, to save
money on a slew of diameters and lengths..and was painted as some sort
of performance 'upgrade.

Well, it's true that threadless has some advantages in the mechanical
sense. It's just not enough to override the *dis*advantages to me.

Also, bike makers saving money is *not* an inherently bad thing, since
eventually that savings does get passed down the chain -- and forks that
are more interchangeable than they used to be is also most emphatically
not a bad thing, although it was much less necessary when frame and fork
were essentially something that tended to stay together for their mutual
lifetime (and is still much less of an advantage for bikes that still do
that).

Couldn't shock makers have gotten the same standardisation benefit by
putting replaceable tube mountings onto their crowns? The entire range of
forks could have been made with one set of replaceable steerers in mind.

Jasper

Squid-in-Training said:

Or you could use your 4, 5, 6mm allen key on a t-less headset, and continue
your ride as if nothing happened. No "limping home" required, and a much
less of a "no big deal."

I commuted to school (5 km or so each way) for 2 years or so with a loose
threaded headset, or at least one that needed to be tightened a bit on
occasion, until I eventually used some big adjustable pliers to secure the
nut properly. "Limping home" is really not necessary.

Jasper

maxo said:

By "limp home" I mean stop every ten miles and crank down the
nut--ohhh, my what a hassle.

*Stop* for that? Pfft. Easy enough to do while riding (at least if you
don't let it get too bad). Better, in fact. The top race is not actually
*doing* all that much, so it's quite useful to adjust it a bit loosely
while under load.

Wasn't there a post recently from someone that spent a few years riding a
bike with just an adjustable race and no locknut, because of stack height
differences?

Jasper

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Here we go again. Like a lot of things 'bike', by saying threadless is
'superior' it implys threaded was somhow unsafe, unuseable in some way.

Only because of your own prejudices.

Quoted message said:

Threaded worked well for over a century and was a good system.

It still is a "good" system; it has well-documented drawbacks as well.
Ya gotta take the good with the bad.

Quoted message said:

Threadless was foisted by shock makers, most noteably Rockshox, to save
money on a slew of diameters and lengths..and was painted as some sort
of performance 'upgrade.

It was more than diameters and lengths. I'd be will to bet that the
manufacturing aspects of threadless (you don't need such fine quality
control on the cut, and you get to skip the threading step altogether) are
far lower cost than threaded, and that this played some role in the move
to threadless. ISTM that once Answer, or whoever it was, brainstormed the
Aheadset, it was a pretty easy decision to make; and that is regardless of
diameters and lengths

It's really a no-lose situation: for new bikes, it makes sense to go with
threadless; for your current bike, there's no overly-urgent reason to move
from threaded, but, if you're thinking of getting a new fork, think long
and hard about going threadless.

cheers,
john

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 23:53:23 +1000, "Paulus" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hi there, I have an old bicycle frame (early '90's). I am wondering if the
older style frames can accept threadless headsets.

Yes, threadless bearings can be had for older frames, but...what's the
stem tube diameter? You may find it difficult to locate a headset or
threadless-stem fork for a 1"-steerer setup. Needless to say, you
have to stick with the steerer diameter that the frame was built to
accept.

Quoted message said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at them they
appear harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

Swapping forks is easier and faster with threadless IMO, and decent
threadless setups are more secure than the average threaded ones.
Threadless often provides much less adjustability, however, and
getting the bar heinght just right can be an expensive exercise as a
result.

All in all, I have come to slightly prefer threadless for some
applications, and have no real preference in most others.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Both bar adjustment and head bearing adjustment is made simpler with
this type of stem. I was glad to be rid f the quill stem when I got a
new fork for my bicycle. I have remains of a two of the quill stems
that corroded solid in my bicycle in my failed parts collection.

Quoted message said:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html

Are you saying that threadless stems are better for junior mechanics
who fail to grease their stems (to provide a water barrier) or lazy
mechanics that fail to maintain their steering columns??? Your
argument is not impressive.

It seems there are plusses and minuses for road bikes :

threadless
+ safe for exotic steering columns, ergo, lighter
+ almost impossible to jam stem in steering column by junior mechanics
+ easier to remove and replace handlebars
(note that threadless would be NEARLY WORTHLESS without this
feature because heigh adjustment is so limited)
+ not very sensitive to headset stack height
+ cheaper because all mountain bikes use it

threaded
+ simpler to adjust pre-load once stem height is set.
+ easier height adjustment - no new spacers required
+ infinite height adjustment
+ easier to put hangers (e.g. centerpull) onto steering column
+ better aesthetics (subjective of course)

I think that it looks more like a draw.

- Don (who rode his bike today) Gillies
San Diego, CA

Sheldon Brown said:

If you leave off the star nut and spacers, it is _easier_ to adjust the
height with a threadless system.

Quoted message said:

You just need some type of clamp above the upper race to hold tension on
the headset so it stays in adjustment. You can use a seatpost clamp or
other band clamp for this.

Quoted message said:

See: http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/09.htm for an example.

I agree that if this were the standard practice for the threadless
headset, and if the standard bike came with at least 2" of unused stem
for up-down adjustment, then threadless would be an unassailable win
over threaded, particularly on fat-tubed bikes.

- Don (who rode his bike today) Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

Quoted message said:

Both bar adjustment and head bearing adjustment is made simpler with
this type of stem. I was glad to be rid f the quill stem when I got a
new fork for my bicycle. I have remains of a two of the quill stems
that corroded solid in my bicycle in my failed parts collection.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html

Quoted message said:

Are you saying that threadless stems are better for junior mechanics
who fail to grease their stems (to provide a water barrier) or lazy
mechanics that fail to maintain their steering columns??? Your
argument is not impressive.

This is an old problem and frame builders can tell you of many
aluminum quill stems that they extracted by various machining
methods. I had enough of that after three stuck stems, two of which
remain as trophies of those days in my collection. I switched to a
steel stem but discovered that the slant wedge commonly used today (in
the belief that it would not seize) turns out to twist enough to
unscrew the stem bolt and leave a rotatable stem. I had repeated
incidents of that and was only too glad to get off the quill stem that
had bothered me since my days on a one speed bicycle for school as a
child.

Quoted message said:

It seems there are plusses and minuses for road bikes :

Quoted message said:

threadless
+ safe for exotic steering columns, ergo, lighter
+ almost impossible to jam stem in steering column by junior mechanics
+ easier to remove and replace handlebars
(note that threadless would be NEARLY WORTHLESS without this
feature because heigh adjustment is so limited)
+ not very sensitive to headset stack height
+ cheaper because all mountain bikes use it

This must be hypothetical. I can't imagine someone who has a
threadless steer tube could claim the above.

Quoted message said:

threaded
+ simpler to adjust pre-load once stem height is set.
+ easier height adjustment - no new spacers required
+ infinite height adjustment
+ easier to put hangers (e.g. centerpull) onto steering column
+ better aesthetics (subjective of course)

Quoted message said:

I think that it looks more like a draw.

I guess standing on the outside reading the billboards could do that
for a great performance. You ought to go in and see the show before
writing a review for wreck.bike.

Jobst Brandt

Jasper Janssen said:

Quoted message said:

By "limp home" I mean stop every ten miles and crank down the
nut--ohhh, my what a hassle.

Quoted message said:

*Stop* for that? Pfft. Easy enough to do while riding (at least if
you don't let it get too bad). Better, in fact. The top race is
not actually *doing* all that much, so it's quite useful to adjust
it a bit loosely while under load.

Quoted message said:

Wasn't there a post recently from someone that spent a few years
riding a bike with just an adjustable race and no locknut, because
of stack height differences?

You can tighten the adjustment while you ride if you can ride with one
hand on the bar. You just can't lock it in place at the ideal bearing
adjustment. That isn't the problem. The problem is the stupid head
bearing wrenches that need to be large to turn such a large diameter
thread for locking tightness, and the more damaging permanently stuck
stem for which we hear HELP my stem is stuck.

In the near future I hope not to read all the theoretical ways of
removing these stems with imagined methods that don't work. At the
rate people buy new bicycles and equipment, most quill stems will be
gone soon.

Jobst Brandt

Alex Rodriguez said:

True. But the headset adjustment is so much simpler with threadless.

Which, if done properly the first time, you need to do ... never ... with
a threaded headset. Until you re-pack the bearings, that is. On my road
bike, that is three years and counting (Chris King headset). Adjust the
stem, sure -- even replaced a couple over the weekend, but no need to mess
with the headset. For threadless, it's not the same. Every time you want
to tweak the position of the bars -- which may not happen much, but until
you get it dialed in, will happen from time to time --- and if you hurt
your back, it may happen again. But each time, you have to re-set the
preload on the headset. RPITA, in my opinion.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can
_`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and
(_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris. --
Glenn Davies

In article <[email hidden]>,

Werehatrack said:

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 23:53:23 +1000, "Paulus" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hi there, I have an old bicycle frame (early '90's). I am wondering if the
older style frames can accept threadless headsets.

Yes, threadless bearings can be had for older frames, but...what's the
stem tube diameter? You may find it difficult to locate a headset or
threadless-stem fork for a 1"-steerer setup. Needless to say, you
have to stick with the steerer diameter that the frame was built to
accept.

This may have been true in the pre-internet era, when one might have had
to rely on the LBS or a few mail-order catalogs.

Nowadays?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Profile-1-Threadless-All-Carbon-Fork-w-Headset_W0QQit
emZ7188068006QQcategoryZ56196QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It took me longer to write this newspost than it did to find that fork.
Picky users are invited to Google up their own variations (steel
steerer, all-steel, canti posts, whatever), and I'm pretty sure more
than one major mail-order house deals in headsets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at them they
appear harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

Swapping forks is easier and faster with threadless IMO, and decent
threadless setups are more secure than the average threaded ones.
Threadless often provides much less adjustability, however, and
getting the bar heinght just right can be an expensive exercise as a
result.

Well, users who are unsure of their ideal stem height are recommended to
NOT CUT THE STEERER! Seriously, most of the shibboleths about threadless
stem adjustability are based on the idea that a cyclist might be faced
with a bicycle with the wrong stem for their needs and a stem cut to the
minimum length. I count that as two mistakes during the original build
of the bike, but only one needs to be corrected to fix the problem, and
there are actually three solutions:

1) buy a new fork
2) buy the appropriate stem
3) use a $20 stem extender:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/stems/index.html

So, we are now faced with a horrible stem design that is lighter,
stronger, safer, more durable, and which is vulnerable to a fashionable
setup folly which can be corrected for the price of dinner for two at a
nice fast food restaurant.

That said, my two fancy bikes have threadless stems, but my older bikes
all have threaded stems, and I am unlikely to change them anytime soon.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

OMG, I've seen it all now. How on earth do you set the tension with that to
get it so there's no slop?
Pretty cool idea though!

Paul

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You just need some type of clamp above the upper race to hold tension on
the headset so it stays in adjustment. You can use a seatpost clamp or
other band clamp for this.

See: http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/09.htm for an example.

Donald Gillies said:

Quoted message said:

Both bar adjustment and head bearing adjustment is made simpler with
this type of stem. I was glad to be rid f the quill stem when I got
a new fork for my bicycle. I have remains of a two of the quill
stems that corroded solid in my bicycle in my failed parts
collection.

Quoted message said:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html

Are you saying that threadless stems are better for junior mechanics
who fail to grease their stems (to provide a water barrier) or lazy
mechanics that fail to maintain their steering columns??? Your
argument is not impressive.

It seems there are plusses and minuses for road bikes :

threadless
+ safe for exotic steering columns, ergo, lighter
+ almost impossible to jam stem in steering column by junior mechanics
+ easier to remove and replace handlebars
(note that threadless would be NEARLY WORTHLESS without this
feature because heigh adjustment is so limited)
+ not very sensitive to headset stack height
+ cheaper because all mountain bikes use it

Not true. The cheapest mountain bikes of all always use threaded headsets.

Quoted message said:

threaded
+ simpler to adjust pre-load once stem height is set.

Eh, not really true, since preload requires a friggin' big, specialized
wrench that is not available from just any hardware store.

Quoted message said:

+ easier height adjustment - no new spacers required
+ infinite height adjustment
+ easier to put hangers (e.g. centerpull) onto steering column

It's the exact same process to put hangers on a threadless stem. How is it
easier?

Quoted message said:

+ better aesthetics (subjective of course)

I think that it looks more like a draw.

- Don (who rode his bike today) Gillies
San Diego, CA

Threaded headset wrenches are easy to strip off the tiny flats of top
cones/cups for unskilled or lazy mechanics.

Keyed threaded headset spacers always strip off the keys, leaving one
requiring the use of both cone/cup wrenches and locknut wrenches at the same
time.

Cutting significant height off a threaded steerer for a smaller frame is
time-consuming and tap-consuming.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

"Paulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi there, I have an old bicycle frame (early '90's). I am wondering if
the older style frames can accept threadless headsets.
Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at them
they appear harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

Cheers
P

Thanks for the info 🙂

P

Chalo said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Chalo said:

I thought you said just the other day that stem quills were skinny and
weak?

Nice try Chalo, never have said that.

Well forgive me for interpreting the following exchange in thst way:

" Chalo wrote:
" >
" > Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
" > >
" > > Read the post...22mm fork, 22.2 quill stem, not the other way
" > > around.
" >
" > My point was that the fit didn't have to be all that precise, and
" > therefore he could sand the quill without worry.
"
" Sure, make that thin-ish quill thinner, no problem breaking a quill.

Since the only thing that's "thin-ish" about a forged aluminum quill
stem is the diameter of the quill itself, I interpreted this to mean
that you didn't have much confidence in the strength of quill stems due
to their size.

I ride quill stems on both of my bicycles and have quill stems on the
other 3 I have I do not own a threadless stem, headset or fork.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A 25.4mm threadless steel steer tube with a 1.6mm wall is 257% as stiff
as a 22.2 aluminum stem quill with a 4mm wall. A 28.6mm steel steerer
with a 1.6mm wall is 375% as stiff as the aforementioned aluminum
quill. A 28.6mm aluminum steerer with a 2mm wall is 150% as stiff as
the stem quill.

And youi have seen lots of threaded quill systems either be unusable or
fail because of these 'numbers'?

Sure, there were several time back in the quill stem days when I'd
build up a bike for myself, give the bars a test wiggle and think,
"whoa, I think I'll be using a different stem". I inevitably wound up
with a welded CrMo steel stem, even though I was ignorant of
engineering principles at that time.

Wiggling it around, back and forth and you made that decsision? Take a
modern threadless set up and try the same thing and you 'should' come
to same, wrong conclusion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"May" be stiffer but that doesn't mean the 'older' design was not
useable or somehow unsafe.

I don't think quill stems are unsafe-- if I did, I wouldn't have one on
any bike of mine. But I'll say this-- for my one bike that does have a
quill stem, I machined a very thick-walled stainless steel quill for
stiffness.

But, as you have said often, you are not exactly in the 'middle'
portion of the bell curve, rider size wise. For the vast majority of
riders, quill, aluminum ones, are just fine. Even for the likes of Pros
that used them for over a century.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When's the last time you have seen a threaded fork break, at the
threads? In the bike biz for 20 years and I have seen two(2). Split
threads, from having the expanding part of the quill too high, another
installation error.

I've broken more threaded steerers than that without running the quill
too high; they've snapped off at the base of the threads or else
cracked along the keyway. Add to that a couple where the quill *was*
run too high, because my bikes were tall and replacement forks came
with too much thread on them.

Chalo Colina

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 03:26:56 GMT, "Paul Scrutton" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

OMG, I've seen it all now. How on earth do you set the tension with that to
get it so there's no slop?
Pretty cool idea though!

A stack of spacers on it plus the cap while adjusting the headset, later
removed?

Jasper

Squid-in-Training said:

Donald Gillies wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

threaded
+ simpler to adjust pre-load once stem height is set.

Eh, not really true, since preload requires a friggin' big, specialized
wrench that is not available from just any hardware store.

A 12" adjustable seems to work reasonably well in a pinch, and *is*
available in any hardware store.

Quoted message said:

It's the exact same process to put hangers on a threadless stem. How is it
easier?

How are hangers held in place on threadless? Let alone prevented from
rotating?

Quoted message said:

Threaded headset wrenches are easy to strip off the tiny flats of top
cones/cups for unskilled or lazy mechanics.

Quoted message said:

Keyed threaded headset spacers always strip off the keys, leaving one

No, they really don't.

Quoted message said:

requiring the use of both cone/cup wrenches and locknut wrenches at the same
time.

Quite a few cheapo top cups don't even have flats, just knurling. It takes
a bit more trial and error to get those adjusted just right, but it's
perfectly possible.

Quoted message said:

Cutting significant height off a threaded steerer for a smaller frame is
time-consuming and tap-consuming.

That's fair enough.

Jasper

Donald Gillies said:

threadless
+ easier to remove and replace handlebars

Why would this be true? Both types of stems can have removable
faceplates. That's not related to the headset type.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

In regard to http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/09.htm

Paul Scrutton asked:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OMG, I've seen it all now. How on earth do you set the tension with that to
get it so there's no slop?
Pretty cool idea though!

Jasper Janssen guessed:

Quoted message said:

A stack of spacers on it plus the cap while adjusting the headset, later
removed?

That would work if I had a star nut in the fork, but I don't. Indeed, in
another bike with a similar setup I run the cyclometer wiring through
the steerer...don't have as good a photo of that though.

However that would be WAY too much trouble!

What I actually do is:

Put an Allen wrench in my pocket, loosen both the stem and the collar on
the steerer.

I stand in front of the bike and push down really hard on the
handlebars, so the stem pushes down on the collar. While applying
downward pressure I twist the bars from side to side and wiggle them
forward and back to take out all of the slack.

Once the slack is gone I let go of one side of the handlebar (while
still maintaining heavy downward force on the other side), pull the
Allen wrench out of my pocket and tighten up the collar's pinch bolt.

Once the collar is secured I put the handlebars up where I want them.

I don't know how well this might work on a 1" setup, but 1 1/8"
threadless headsets seem to respond well to this approach.

Sheldon "Easier Than You Might Imagine" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the |
| unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world |
| to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the |
| unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
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