Threaded vs threadless headsets

Paulus said:

Hi there, I have an old bicycle frame (early '90's). I am wondering if the
older style frames can accept threadless headsets.

Yes. There are plenty of 1" threadless headsets and 1" threadless
forks.

Quoted message said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones?

Others can give opinions on this.

Looking at them they

Quoted message said:

appear harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

They are mechanically easier to adjust. Instead of needing 1 or 2 32
mm open end headset wrenches, all you need are a 4 and 5 mm Allen
wrenches. Use the 4 mm Allen wrench to loosen the stem bolts and use
the 5 mm Allen wrench to adjust the preload on the headset by turning
the top cap bolt. I seem to have a more difficult time getting the
threadless headset adjusted right. I find its easier to sneak up on
the tightness with the 32 mm wrenches. When adjusting the threadless
headset, you have to make sure your bars are straight because you have
to loosen the stem. An annoyance.

As for getting the fork out of the frame, its much easier with a
threadless headset. Loosen the stem, undo the brake cable, and the
fork falls out. With threaded you have to pound on the quill stem to
get it loose inside the steerer, unscrew the headset cone and nut, and
loosen the brake cable. Of course most folks don't take the fork out
of the frame that often to make this much of a concern.

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 23:53:23 +1000, "Paulus" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hi there, I have an old bicycle frame (early '90's). I am wondering if the
older style frames can accept threadless headsets.

Yes, but older (threaded) forks cannot accept them easily.

Quoted message said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at them they
appear harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

No, it's pretty easy.

The big advantage of threadless is it's safe to use lighter steerer
tube materials, like aluminum and carbon fiber.

JT

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No reason to switch, imho. Threadless certainly are rather smart in
some ways, and can feel nice and rigid, but there are plenty of quills
still on the market.

You'll have to replace your fork to go threadless, btw--might be the
thing if you want to try out a new budget carbon fork.

If you simply want to get those bars up, grab a Nitto Technomic.

You can also get adapters allowing you to use threadless stems with
threaded headsets...

Paulus said:

Hi there, I have an old bicycle frame (early '90's). I am wondering if the
older style frames can accept threadless headsets.
Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at them they
appear harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

Others have answered the HS question, but no one has given the warning.
You can switch to threadless but you will need to replace at least the
steerer on the fork, or the entire fork. Not a good idea to clamp a
threadless stem around a threaded steerer.

- rick

Paulus Halien said:

I have an old bicycle frame (early '90's). I am wondering if the
older style frames can accept threadless headsets. Also, are there
any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at them they appear
harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

Both bar adjustment and head bearing adjustment is made simpler with
this type of stem. I was glad to be rid f the quill stem when I got a
new fork for my bicycle. I have remains of a two of the quill stems
that corroded solid in my bicycle in my failed parts collection.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html

Jobst Brandt

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Hi there, I have an old bicycle frame (early '90's). I am wondering if the
older style frames can accept threadless headsets.

The frame is not a problem it can use a threadless headset. You will need a
new threadless fork and a threadless stem.

Quoted message said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones?

Biggest advantage is that it is very easy to adjust the headset with just an
allen key. With the old headsets it was trial and error until you got it just
right. You also needed some large tools that you could not easily carry with
you incase you had to make an adjustment on the road.

Quoted message said:

Looking at them they
appear harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

Quite the opposite. A breeze to adjust and to remove the fork.
---------------
Alex

Paulus Halien queried:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have an old bicycle frame (early '90's). I am wondering if the
older style frames can accept threadless headsets. Also, are there
any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at them they appear
harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

Jobst Brandt replied to the second part thus:

Quoted message said:

Both bar adjustment and head bearing adjustment is made simpler with
this type of stem. I was glad to be rid f the quill stem when I got a
new fork for my bicycle. I have remains of a two of the quill stems
that corroded solid in my bicycle in my failed parts collection.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html

The answer to the first part is that the frame doesn't care whether the
headset is threaded or not.

The only parts concerned with this are the fork, the stem and the
headset itself.

Any frame can work with either style of headset, in the appropriate
diameter.

Sheldon "Threadless Thread" Brown
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| And the waves bound beneath me as a steed |
| That knows his rider. Welcome to their roar! |
| Swift be their guidance, wheresoe'er it lead! |
| Though the strain'd mast should quiver as a reed, |
| And the rent canvas fluttering strew the gale, |
| Still must I on; for I am as a weed, |
| Flung from the rock, on Ocean's foam to sail |
| Where'er the surge may sweep, |
| the tempest's breath prevail. |
| --Lord Byron Child Harold's Pilgrimage |
+-----------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Alex Rodriguez said:

Quoted message said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones?

Biggest advantage is that it is very easy to adjust the headset with just an
allen key. With the old headsets it was trial and error until you got it just
right. You also needed some large tools that you could not easily carry with
you incase you had to make an adjustment on the road.

I think that's an advantage for upgrading a MTB or for someone on a
long tour. Most of us roadies can hand tighten and limp home on a loose
threaded headset--it's no big deal.

Anyhow, my massive Pedros headset spanner just looks damn impressive.
Like a big cartoon wrench. I refuse to give it up. :P

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:57:17 -0400, Alex Rodriguez <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quite the opposite. A breeze to adjust and to remove the fork.

As long as by 'adjust' you mean the headset bearings, and not bar
position.

Jasper

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Paulus said:

Hi there, I have an old bicycle frame (early '90's). I am wondering if the
older style frames can accept threadless headsets.

Yes, w/o problem

Quoted message said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at them they
appear harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

Some here will say things about strength and stiffness but in reality
it was a way for fork makers to save money. No advantage except for
availability of stems, which threaded are kinda scarce.

I strongly disagree. Yes the manufacturer saves the cost
of threading the steering tube and would sell threadless
steering tubes even if they were inferior; just as they
manufacture and promote that abomination, the integrated
headset. Threadless steering tubes are superior to the
threaded steering tubes.

--
Michael Press

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Paulus said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at them they
appear harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

Some here will say things about strength and stiffness but in reality
it was a way for fork makers to save money. No advantage except for
availability of stems, which threaded are kinda scarce.

I thought you said just the other day that stem quills were skinny and
weak?

A 25.4mm threadless steel steer tube with a 1.6mm wall is 257% as stiff
as a 22.2 aluminum stem quill with a 4mm wall. A 28.6mm steel steerer
with a 1.6mm wall is 375% as stiff as the aforementioned aluminum
quill. A 28.6mm aluminum steerer with a 2mm wall is 150% as stiff as
the stem quill.

The tubular construction and larger, more conformal mechanical
interfaces of a typical threadless stem make it likewise stiffer than
the typical solid forged quill stem.

Since neither kind of stem breaks often enough to be considered a
chronic problem, stiffness is likely to be the only noteworthy
difference between the two categories of stem for most riders'
purposes. Threadless forks are much less likely to break than threaded
ones, though.

Chalo Colina

Chalo Colina said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at
them they appear harder to adjust and get one's fork out of the
frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some here will say things about strength and stiffness but in
reality it was a way for fork makers to save money. No advantage
except for availability of stems, which threaded are kinda scarce.

Quoted message said:

I thought you said just the other day that stem quills were skinny
and weak?

Quoted message said:

A 25.4mm threadless steel steer tube with a 1.6mm wall is 257% as
stiff as a 22.2 aluminum stem quill with a 4mm wall. A 28.6mm steel
steerer with a 1.6mm wall is 375% as stiff as the aforementioned
aluminum quill. A 28.6mm aluminum steerer with a 2mm wall is 150%
as stiff as the stem quill.

Quoted message said:

The tubular construction and larger, more conformal mechanical
interfaces of a typical threadless stem make it likewise stiffer
than the typical solid forged quill stem.

Quoted message said:

Since neither kind of stem breaks often enough to be considered a
chronic problem, stiffness is likely to be the only noteworthy
difference between the two categories of stem for most riders'
purposes. Threadless forks are much less likely to break than threaded
ones, though.

I suspect the conspiracy believers probably don't have a threadless
steertube on their bicycles. To defend that perceived failure they go
on the attack of the industry that admittedly spends too much time
pandering to the aero-weight-material freaks. However, I think I can
safely speak for the advantage of the threadless steertube as one who
doesn't equip my bicycle with the latest fads as is evident from the
picture Sheldon took a year ago and posted on his site, I switched to
this stem for the technical reasons that I have given here often.

That you can't easily change the height of the bars is a red herring
because most reasonable riders are not changing their position and bar
height once they have purchased a bicycle to keep and ride. That
these complaints are offered tells me that some folks may be spending
too much time re-equipping themselves with poorly fitting fashion.

Ride bike!

Jobst Brandt

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Paulus said:

Hi there, I have an old bicycle frame (early '90's). I am wondering if the
older style frames can accept threadless headsets.

Yes, w/o problem

Quoted message said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at them they
appear harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

Some here will say things about strength and stiffness but in reality
it was a way for fork makers to save money. No advantage except for
availability of stems, which threaded are kinda scarce.

I strongly disagree. Yes the manufacturer saves the cost
of threading the steering tube and would sell threadless
steering tubes even if they were inferior; just as they
manufacture and promote that abomination, the integrated
headset. Threadless steering tubes are superior to the
threaded steering tubes.

--
Michael Press

Here we go again. Like a lot of things 'bike', by saying threadless is
'superior' it implys threaded was somhow unsafe, unuseable in some way.
Kinda like saying new cranks are 'waty stiffer', ti imply older cranks
are soft and flexy, also not the case.

Threaded worked well for over a century and was a good system.
Threadless was foisted by shock makers, most noteably Rockshox, to save
money on a slew of diameters and lengths..and was painted as some sort
of performance 'upgrade.

Chalo said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Paulus said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones? Looking at them they
appear harder to adjust and get one's fork's out of the frame.

Some here will say things about strength and stiffness but in reality
it was a way for fork makers to save money. No advantage except for
availability of stems, which threaded are kinda scarce.

I thought you said just the other day that stem quills were skinny and
weak?

Nice try Chalo, never have said that.

Quoted message said:

A 25.4mm threadless steel steer tube with a 1.6mm wall is 257% as stiff
as a 22.2 aluminum stem quill with a 4mm wall. A 28.6mm steel steerer
with a 1.6mm wall is 375% as stiff as the aforementioned aluminum
quill. A 28.6mm aluminum steerer with a 2mm wall is 150% as stiff as
the stem quill.

And youi have seen lots of threaded quill systems either be unusable or
fail because of these 'numbers'?

"May" be stiffer but that doesn't mean the 'older' design was not
useable or somehow unsafe.

Quoted message said:

The tubular construction and larger, more conformal mechanical
interfaces of a typical threadless stem make it likewise stiffer than
the typical solid forged quill stem.

Since neither kind of stem breaks often enough to be considered a
chronic problem, stiffness is likely to be the only noteworthy
difference between the two categories of stem for most riders'
purposes.

You've been reading too many ads in bike mags. 'Most' riders couldn't
tell the difference.

Threadless forks are much less likely to break than threaded

Quoted message said:

ones, though.

When's the ;last time you have seen a threaded fork break, at the
threads? In the bike biz for 20 years and I have seen two(2). Split
threads, from having the expanding part of the quill too high, another
installation error.

Quoted message said:

Chalo Colina

Quoted message said:

I suspect the conspiracy believers probably don't have a threadless
steertube on their bicycles. To defend that perceived failure they go
on the attack of the industry that admittedly spends too much time
pandering to the aero-weight-material freaks. However, I think I can
safely speak for the advantage of the threadless steertube as one who
doesn't equip my bicycle with the latest fads as is evident from the
picture Sheldon took a year ago and posted on his site, I switched to
this stem for the technical reasons that I have given here often.

That you can't easily change the height of the bars is a red herring
because most reasonable riders are not changing their position and bar
height once they have purchased a bicycle to keep and ride. That
these complaints are offered tells me that some folks may be spending
too much time re-equipping themselves with poorly fitting fashion.

Hmmmm, I guess all those stems we sell to change a person's position is
myth and lore....???

Quoted message said:

Ride bike!

Jobst Brandt

maxo said:

Alex Rodriguez said:

Quoted message said:

Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones?

Biggest advantage is that it is very easy to adjust the headset with
just an allen key. With the old headsets it was trial and error
until you got it just right. You also needed some large tools that
you could not easily carry with you incase you had to make an
adjustment on the road.

I think that's an advantage for upgrading a MTB or for someone on a
long tour. Most of us roadies can hand tighten and limp home on a
loose threaded headset--it's no big deal.

Or you could use your 4, 5, 6mm allen key on a t-less headset, and continue
your ride as if nothing happened. No "limping home" required, and a much
less of a "no big deal."

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Wrote Jobst Brandt:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That you can't easily change the height of the bars is a red herring
because most reasonable riders are not changing their position and bar
height once they have purchased a bicycle to keep and ride. That
these complaints are offered tells me that some folks may be spending
too much time re-equipping themselves with poorly fitting fashion.

Peter Chisholm replied:

Quoted message said:

Hmmmm, I guess all those stems we sell to change a person's position is
myth and lore....???

Hmmmmmmmmm, we sell scads of stems to change a person's position, but
most of them are quill type...

If you leave off the star nut and spacers, it is _easier_ to adjust the
height with a threadless system.

You just need some type of clamp above the upper race to hold tension on
the headset so it stays in adjustment. You can use a seatpost clamp or
other band clamp for this.

See: http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/09.htm for an example.

Sheldon "Adjustable" Brown
+----------------------------------------------+
| Certainly the game is rigged. |
| Don't let that stop you; |
| if you don't bet, you can't win. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+----------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Phil said:

maxo said:

Alex Rodriguez said:

> Also, are there any advantages to the threadless ones?

Biggest advantage is that it is very easy to adjust the headset with
just an allen key. With the old headsets it was trial and error
until you got it just right. You also needed some large tools that
you could not easily carry with you incase you had to make an
adjustment on the road.

I think that's an advantage for upgrading a MTB or for someone on a
long tour. Most of us roadies can hand tighten and limp home on a
loose threaded headset--it's no big deal.

Or you could use your 4, 5, 6mm allen key on a t-less headset, and continue
your ride as if nothing happened. No "limping home" required, and a much
less of a "no big deal."

So I should spend $300 to retrofit my bike for something that will
probably never happen? :P

By "limp home" I mean stop every ten miles and crank down the
nut--ohhh, my what a hassle.

They're a bit stiffer, but the convenience factor is overrated, quills
are simple stuff too.

Anyhoo headsets=boring. Grease them and forget them. My next one will
be threadless most likely, and just as thrilling. (not)

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Chalo said:

I thought you said just the other day that stem quills were skinny and
weak?

Nice try Chalo, never have said that.

Well forgive me for interpreting the following exchange in thst way:

" Chalo wrote:
" >
" > Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
" > >
" > > Read the post...22mm fork, 22.2 quill stem, not the other way
" > > around.
" >
" > My point was that the fit didn't have to be all that precise, and
" > therefore he could sand the quill without worry.
"
" Sure, make that thin-ish quill thinner, no problem breaking a quill.

Since the only thing that's "thin-ish" about a forged aluminum quill
stem is the diameter of the quill itself, I interpreted this to mean
that you didn't have much confidence in the strength of quill stems due
to their size.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A 25.4mm threadless steel steer tube with a 1.6mm wall is 257% as stiff
as a 22.2 aluminum stem quill with a 4mm wall. A 28.6mm steel steerer
with a 1.6mm wall is 375% as stiff as the aforementioned aluminum
quill. A 28.6mm aluminum steerer with a 2mm wall is 150% as stiff as
the stem quill.

And youi have seen lots of threaded quill systems either be unusable or
fail because of these 'numbers'?

Sure, there were several time back in the quill stem days when I'd
build up a bike for myself, give the bars a test wiggle and think,
"whoa, I think I'll be using a different stem". I inevitably wound up
with a welded CrMo steel stem, even though I was ignorant of
engineering principles at that time.

Quoted message said:

"May" be stiffer but that doesn't mean the 'older' design was not
useable or somehow unsafe.

I don't think quill stems are unsafe-- if I did, I wouldn't have one on
any bike of mine. But I'll say this-- for my one bike that does have a
quill stem, I machined a very thick-walled stainless steel quill for
stiffness.

Quoted message said:

When's the last time you have seen a threaded fork break, at the
threads? In the bike biz for 20 years and I have seen two(2). Split
threads, from having the expanding part of the quill too high, another
installation error.

I've broken more threaded steerers than that without running the quill
too high; they've snapped off at the base of the threads or else
cracked along the keyway. Add to that a couple where the quill *was*
run too high, because my bikes were tall and replacement forks came
with too much thread on them.

Chalo Colina