Upgrade Compatibility

bebop86 said:

I have an older Specialized Allez, somewhere out of the 1980s. It has an Aluminum frame and fork and is fully equipped with Shimano 600 components including the wheelset, shifters, braking units, crank, and the cassette. It is definately showing some age, I try to take care of it as best I can but these are the original components that have seen more than 2,000 miles of road. I was thinking about buying a new bicycle, possibly the Tommaso Capri, but I realized that I can't get anything for under $500 without essentially riding on cheaper components. So, then. I was hoping to get it professionally painted and then replace some of the components.
My question is:
If I repace the crankset (to a 3 from a 2) and cassette, and of course the chain too with shimano 105s, will I need to replace the derailleurs too? How about the shifters?

Edit: wait, anyone have a link where i could possibly purchase full shimano 105 components? maybe i'll just guy the components and have a local bike shop install them.

If you buy new 105 shifters, you wiil have to buy so much other stuff,you may as well buy a new bike.On top of that you are talikng paint too.Time for a reality check and a break from the carpet smoking. FWIW, 2000 mi is literally nothing. If you haven't maintained your chain, it and the cassette may be trash, but that is about it....A triple crank means a BB too, and FD.You can get away with the short cage RD if you avoid the small cogs when in the granny and just use it as a bailout.

boudreaux said:

If you buy new 105 shifters, you wiil have to buy so much other stuff,you may as well buy a new bike.On top of that you are talikng paint too.Time for a reality check and a break from the carpet smoking. FWIW, 2000 mi is literally nothing. If you haven't maintained your chain, it and the cassette may be trash, but that is about it....A triple crank means a BB too, and FD.You can get away with the short cage RD if you avoid the small cogs when in the granny and just use it as a bailout.

Eeeeeeeek! Lost in the lingo... well, in a perfect world... this is what would happen. I would a new 105 Double Crank. I should then be able to keep the 600 FD, right? I'd love to keep my 600 Shifters because I like having them separate from the brake levers.
I think my cassette is a 7-speed (i'm staying with some friends right now, my bike is at home, so i'm not certain... it's either 6 or 7). if i were to replace my derailleur and cassette (was thinking a 105 derailleur and a 9 speed cassette) would i be able to keep my 600 shifter?
i could always get a 7 speed cassette (assuming mine is a 7 now) and just try to get a better range. I just have a hard time climbing because my bicycle doesn't gear down low enough. what is the difference between a 012/21 and 012/28 cassette? i assume the 28 climbs better... am i wrong? i need something that will tackle these san franciscan hills.

edit: here's what i wanna buy perhaps... i'd like to use a triple, but i'd rather not replace the shifters. will this get me up 15% + gradients?

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?sku=15853
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?sku=371
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?sku=15848

bebop86 said:

Eeeeeeeek! Lost in the lingo... well, in a perfect world... this is what would happen. I would a new 105 Double Crank. I should then be able to keep the 600 FD, right? I'd love to keep my 600 Shifters because I like having them separate from the brake levers.
I think my cassette is a 7-speed (i'm staying with some friends right now, my bike is at home, so i'm not certain... it's either 6 or 7). if i were to replace my derailleur and cassette (was thinking a 105 derailleur and a 9 speed cassette) would i be able to keep my 600 shifter?
i could always get a 7 speed cassette (assuming mine is a 7 now) and just try to get a better range. I just have a hard time climbing because my bicycle doesn't gear down low enough. what is the difference between a 012/21 and 012/28 cassette? i assume the 28 climbs better... am i wrong? i need something that will tackle these san franciscan hills.

edit: here's what i wanna buy perhaps... i'd like to use a triple, but i'd rather not replace the shifters. will this get me up 15% + gradients?

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?sku=15853
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?sku=371
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?sku=15848

The lingo is part of it and you just don't know enough to be doing this stuff without getting in over your head and throwing money away. You may need a new cassette, but a new chain to go with it would be a good idea.... Why replace a 600 double crank with a new 105 and the same for the RD?? Neither could be worn out in 2000 mi, and both would work with 9 speed if you should actually go that way.....If you have 6 or 7 speed you cannot simply replace the cassette with a 9 speed, assuming you even have a cassette. To do that you would have to think new rear wheel or replace the hub body and redish the wheel and maybe put in a longer axel. If you have a uniglide cassette, they are out of print and trying to find biggers cogs or a replacement could be an issue. If you have a freewheel, a replacement with bigger cogs is easier. Bigger rear cogs and smaller chainrings = better climbing. If your small ring is a 42 it could be replaced with a 38 or 39. Your downtube shifters have a friction mode that allows the rear to be used with any RD or number of cassette speeds. If you want to keep the indexing,then you would also need to replace the rear downtube shifter with one that matches the cassette speeds.......You can use a triple without changing your shifters. Downtube shimano shifters are also available in 8,9 or 10 speeds.....No one here knows what you need to get you up a 15% grade.... I simply think you are kidding yourself and would be shoveling money into a black hole. You can likely sell that bike in SF on Craigslist for more than it is worth and then buy what you need either new or used.

I went through this a few years ago, when I decided to get back in to cycling after several years of nothing but golf and skiing. I had a '91 Pinarello Veneto lugged steel frame. Not their best frame at the time but a very comfortable and asthetically pleasing (IMHO) model. It was in good shape (no rust) and it had a Campy Record Headset and the rest of the parts on it were Shimano 105 8-speed down tube and Mavic MA40 rims. The wheels were shot (out of round, out of true with some cracks developing around the spoke holes). $200 later I picked up a set of Open Pro's with 105 hubs. I also decided to go with 9-speed integrated shifters. I picked up a 105 9 speed upgrade kit for $229, plus an Ultegre 39t chainring ($20) which was recommonded (BS, I know, but I wanted to go with a 39 instead of the 42 since I moved to a hillier area, and I'm no Roberto Heras). I forget what I paid the shop to install everything but let's just say it was $50 (probably more like $75, but I'll be conservative). When it was all said and done I spent $500 just to upgrade an 11 year old bike. Looking back, I rode about 3,000 miles on it that year so it wasn't a complete waste of $, but ended up buying a new bike anyway a year later. My advice, get the bike tuned up (especially the wheels) and if you really want a more modern ride, save up and go for something better with 10 speed which is becoming the standard anyway. A 1980's aluminum frame with aluminum fork (ouch!), might not even accomodate a 9 speed drivetrain due to rear spacing requirements.

The real question is whether or not your shifters are indexed. If they click when you shift the rear derailleur then they are indexed and they work as a system (shifter, rear derailleur, cassette are all designed to work together). If they are friction shifters then you can pretty much do anything you want with the freewheel so long as you don't get something too wide for your rear hub. Also, Shimano had two different rear cassettes (if your rear hub is a freehub), one for the 6/7 speed and one for the 8/9 speed. The latter is wider by about 4mm. To tell if your rear hub is a conventional hub or a freehub, take the wheel off and look at the space between the axle and the smallest sprocket. On a 6/7 speed freehub there is usually a large flat dust shield that spins with the wheel surrounding the axle. On a conventional hub with freewheel you will see a metal part that is used to remove it with a large tool. I can post pictures if you need the visual.

If your bike has friction shifters and a freehub then you can swap out the freehub portion of the rear hub with a newer 8/9 speed one, get a new cassette for it, retrue the rear wheel (the new freehub body will move your tire over by about 4mm), replace the chain, then adjust your shifter end points.

If your bike has indexed shifting then it's a whole different ballgame and will require that you replace the shifters, derailleur, etc.

So, we need some more information from you: friction or indexed? cassette or freehub?

I'm in Daly City, BTW. If you want I can take a look at the bike for you to let you know what my opinion is. I'm certainly no bike mechanic, though (I work only on my own bikes because I don't think I'm all that good). Also, I would be interested in buying anything that you replace when you upgrade your parts. Just let me know.

- Peter -

bebop86 said:

I have an older Specialized Allez, somewhere out of the 1980s. It has an Aluminum frame and fork and is fully equipped with Shimano 600 components including the wheelset, shifters, braking units, crank, and the cassette. It is definately showing some age, I try to take care of it as best I can but these are the original components that have seen more than 2,000 miles of road. I was thinking about buying a new bicycle, possibly the Tommaso Capri, but I realized that I can't get anything for under $500 without essentially riding on cheaper components. So, then. I was hoping to get it professionally painted and then replace some of the components.
My question is:
If I repace the crankset (to a 3 from a 2) and cassette, and of course the chain too with shimano 105s, will I need to replace the derailleurs too? How about the shifters?

Edit: wait, anyone have a link where i could possibly purchase full shimano 105 components? maybe i'll just guy the components and have a local bike shop install them.

Here's a suggestion. Go on ebay and find a few similar early 80's Allez to yours. See what they sell for just to get an idea of the actual worth of your bike. After that call your local bike shop and ask them how much a 105 grouppo costs and how much it would cost to have it installed and made rideable. Then ask yourself if it's worth spending all of that time and money doing the following...

1) buying all new 105 components
2) buying new wheels to go with the new components
3) paying a mechanic to put them on and tune them for you
4) having the frame bead blasted
5) having it professionally painted
6) and anything else that I may have left out, such as handlebar tape and pedals

... OR...

Go to a bike shop and spend $1200 USD on a fresh brand new Allez Elite with all of the above already done and a nice warranty to go with. Hmmmmmmm, now where did I put my brain this morning? 😕 Even an Allez Sport would be better than going through all of that work on a restoration unless you had a frame that was a real keeper. Unfortunatly it doesn't fall into that category.

[quote="PCC"]The real question is whether or not your shifters are indexed. If they click when you shift the rear derailleur then they are indexed and they work as a system (shifter, rear derailleur, cassette are all designed to work together).

Peter, I could be wrong, but I believe you can turn the shifters to a friction mode (I know I can on my early '90's 105 8 speed system). I cannot speak for the '80's Shimano 600, but my guess, is they too would have a friction mode. Boudreaux, any thoughts?

Pete

PCC said:

The real question is whether or not your shifters are indexed. If they click when you shift the rear derailleur then they are indexed and they work as a system (shifter, rear derailleur, cassette are all designed to work together). If they are friction shifters then you can pretty much do anything you want with the freewheel so long as you don't get something too wide for your rear hub. Also, Shimano had two different rear cassettes (if your rear hub is a freehub), one for the 6/7 speed and one for the 8/9 speed. The latter is wider by about 4mm. To tell if your rear hub is a conventional hub or a freehub, take the wheel off and look at the space between the axle and the smallest sprocket. On a 6/7 speed freehub there is usually a large flat dust shield that spins with the wheel surrounding the axle. On a conventional hub with freewheel you will see a metal part that is used to remove it with a large tool. I can post pictures if you need the visual.

If your bike has friction shifters and a freehub then you can swap out the freehub portion of the rear hub with a newer 8/9 speed one, get a new cassette for it, retrue the rear wheel (the new freehub body will move your tire over by about 4mm), replace the chain, then adjust your shifter end points.

If your bike has indexed shifting then it's a whole different ballgame and will require that you replace the shifters, derailleur, etc.

So, we need some more information from you: friction or indexed? cassette or freehub?

-

If his 600 shifters are index,they also have friction mode. Sheldon Brown has a much better presentation on uniglide/hyperglide/cassettes/freehubs and FREEWHEELS and FREEWHEEL HUBS At www.harriscyclery,com The search function if very useful.

I agree with all the comments to get a new bike. However, if you're pretty set on upgrading, check this:

PeterF said:

A 1980's aluminum frame with aluminum fork (ouch!), might not even accomodate a 9 speed drivetrain due to rear spacing requirements.

Measure your rear dropouts, they will probably be 126mm, and thus not fit modern hubs (anything since the late-90s, 130mm) without respacing the hub and redishing the wheel. Even more headaches....

Flatscan said:

I agree with all the comments to get a new bike. However, if you're pretty set on upgrading, check this:
Measure your rear dropouts, they will probably be 126mm, and thus not fit modern hubs (anything since the late-90s, 130mm) without respacing the hub and redishing the wheel. Even more headaches....

The common street wisdom says you can't put a 130 hub in a 126 aluminum frame.Zinn and Sheldon Brown say otherwise. You don't try and spread the dropouts permanently wider, you just spread by hand enough to get the wider hub in. AFWIW, you don't have to do any redishing with the wider hub/wheel.

boudreaux said:

The common street wisdom says you can't put a 130 hub in a 126 aluminum frame.Zinn and Sheldon Brown say otherwise. You don't try and spread the dropouts permanently wider, you just spread by hand enough to get the wider hub in. AFWIW, you don't have to do any redishing with the wider hub/wheel.

My '91 Pinarello fits a 130 hub with no problem (I'm not sure when 126mm was last used). I did try to build an '87 Cannondale frame with some spare 9 speed stuff. I got it to fit, but took it took some brute force. Forget about quick wheel changes though...

PeterF said:

My '91 Pinarello fits a 130 hub with no problem (I'm not sure when 126mm was last used). I did try to build an '87 Cannondale frame with some spare 9 speed stuff. I got it to fit, but took it took some brute force. Forget about quick wheel changes though...

8 speed DA was '89 IIRC. That would have been the start of 130 spacing. but there was still lots of 7 speed sold after that, and well into the late '90 many frames were made with a compromise 128 spacing to handle both 7 and 8/9 hubs.

cThanks for all the help everyone. Buying a new bicycle is kind of out of the question... If I end up spending $500, I'd rather it be on a custom paint job and a few replacement components than have to essentially downgrade to Sora components.

They are friction shifters on my downtube, they do not click. It is either a 6 or 7 speed, and there was a plastic dust shield that recently broke off.

Here is what I'm thinking now. Replace the Cassette, replace the chain, replace the worn out jockey wheels on the RD. Later on if I want to go to a triple crank, i'll do that... but for the most part I really want to give Naga (the bike, that's his name... yes... i'm horribly attached to him) a bit of attention with a new paint job i can show off at critical mass every month.

What do you guys think about doing a paint job myself? I'm an artsy kid, and my dad said I could get some glossy enamel spray on paints that would be water proof and glossy, but I'm not sure how well that would look... but then again, I don't know of any professional places that will paint a bicycle, much less do custom work like how I want it. would i have to spray a primer first since i wouldn't be pulling off the original paint? Are there appropriate spray paints that will look classy?

bebop86 said:

cThanks for all the help everyone. Buying a new bicycle is kind of out of the question... If I end up spending $500, I'd rather it be on a custom paint job and a few replacement components than have to essentially downgrade to Sora components.

They are friction shifters on my downtube, they do not click. It is either a 6 or 7 speed, and there was a plastic dust shield that recently broke off.

Here is what I'm thinking now. Replace the Cassette, replace the chain, replace the worn out jockey wheels on the RD. Later on if I want to go to a triple crank, i'll do that... but for the most part I really want to give Naga (the bike, that's his name... yes... i'm horribly attached to him) a bit of attention with a new paint job i can show off at critical mass every month.

What do you guys think about doing a paint job myself? I'm an artsy kid, and my dad said I could get some glossy enamel spray on paints that would be water proof and glossy, but I'm not sure how well that would look... but then again, I don't know of any professional places that will paint a bicycle, much less do custom work like how I want it. Are there appropriate spray paints that will look classy?

Critiacl Mass !! 🙄 ....Oh the horror...Yeah, get some nice camo Rustoleum,or see if there is a local powdercoat outfit that will do a bike frame.

boudreaux said:

The common street wisdom says you can't put a 130 hub in a 126 aluminum frame.Zinn and Sheldon Brown say otherwise. You don't try and spread the dropouts permanently wider, you just spread by hand enough to get the wider hub in. AFWIW, you don't have to do any redishing with the wider hub/wheel.

Thanks for the correction. I tried to force a 130 hub into a 126 steel frame a few months ago, but I guess I just didn't try hard enough. We chose not to attempt to cold-set it.

I think redishing is necessary if you respace only the non-drive side, but is completely irrelevant if you just force it.

Thanks everyone for all the help... I think I'll just replace those three parts I mentioned earlier: the RD jockey wheels, cassette (with one that will work with the currently existing wheel & whatnots) and a new chain. It'll keep cost down on what will make feel like a brand new bicycle owner and I can't express my gratitude enough for this forum. Hurrah!

As for the paints... I'm going to do it myself with the Rustoleum paint. I bought a nice rustaway primer and two colours I wanted to paint with and I tried them out on an old bicycle my parents had lying around and I just can't wait to disassemble Naga for his new custom paint job.
Thankies again!
---ben