Bike Fit Question

In article <[email hidden]>,

Paul Cassel said:

I noted in two LBS's that some expert riders (well, they seem to be to
me) check fit before a test ride by putting their elbow at the nose of
the seat and then extending their arms forward at a zero angle to the
seat. This puts their hands along the stem. Where should the steering
tube or whatever be in relation to some part of your anatomy doing this
test?

The old rule-of-thumb is that the distance from the tip of the saddle
to the handlebar should about the same as your arm length with fingers
extended. More aggressive riders will want a little more reach (and
probably know how much more from experience). Of course, this rule has
limited accuracy since it does not consider saddle position and seat
tube angle (though the rider may have taken those into account separately).

Holy moly, I've got 4cm from the tips of my fingers to the h-bar. :o

I do have a long upper body, and can ride in the drops w/o locked
elbows.

Might have to try a shorter stem and see how it feels. I definitely
feel stretched out on the hoods, as switching to modern levers from old
top-ext 600s added another cm to the reach in that position. No locked
elbows there either.

That's an interesting tidbit, I'll put it in my bag of advice to take
with a grain of salt.

🙂

C said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Paul Cassel said:

I noted in two LBS's that some expert riders (well, they seem to be to
me) check fit before a test ride by putting their elbow at the nose of
the seat and then extending their arms forward at a zero angle to the
seat. This puts their hands along the stem. Where should the steering
tube or whatever be in relation to some part of your anatomy doing this
test?

The old rule-of-thumb is that the distance from the tip of the saddle
to the handlebar should about the same as your arm length with fingers
extended. More aggressive riders will want a little more reach (and
probably know how much more from experience). Of course, this rule has
limited accuracy since it does not consider saddle position and seat
tube angle (though the rider may have taken those into account separately).

Thanks. The rider attitudes probably accounted for why the various guys
choose different lengths.

Quoted message said:

I noted in two LBS's that some expert riders (well, they seem to be to me)
check fit before a test ride by putting their elbow at the nose of the seat
and then extending their arms forward at a zero angle to the seat. This
puts their hands along the stem. Where should the steering tube or whatever
be in relation to some part of your anatomy doing this test?

I ask here because watching folks do this measurement I noted that each
person hit the steering tube at a slightly different part of his hand.
Thus if there is a standard measurement, I couldn't determine that by
spying on these experienced riders. TIA.

People are still doing that? I thought that was abandoned even before (most)
people gave up on the idea that you're supposed to be sitting on the saddle,
hands on the drops, look down and have the front axle obscured by the
handlebar.

As others have pointed out, different saddles have different nose designs,
and you orient your tail end based on what's going on at the back of the
saddle, not the front. As far as seat angle and fore/aft saddle positioning
affecting it, you could make the claim that positional change over the
pedals is compensated for because you're measuring off the saddle, so as it
moves forward, everything moves with it.

But such measurements don't have much to do with fit. It doesn't tell you
anything about torso length, nor how high or low someone's back needs to be
in order to be comfortable while riding.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I noted in two LBS's that some expert riders (well, they seem to be to me)
check fit before a test ride by putting their elbow at the nose of the seat
and then extending their arms forward at a zero angle to the seat. This
puts their hands along the stem. Where should the steering tube or whatever
be in relation to some part of your anatomy doing this test?

I ask here because watching folks do this measurement I noted that each
person hit the steering tube at a slightly different part of his hand.
Thus if there is a standard measurement, I couldn't determine that by
spying on these experienced riders. TIA.

maxo said:

Holy moly, I've got 4cm from the tips of my fingers to the h-bar. :o

I do have a long upper body, and can ride in the drops w/o locked
elbows.

Might have to try a shorter stem and see how it feels. I definitely
feel stretched out on the hoods, as switching to modern levers from old
top-ext 600s added another cm to the reach in that position. No locked
elbows there either.

That's an interesting tidbit, I'll put it in my bag of advice to take
with a grain of salt.

Both reach and handlebar width are both important fit dimensions. They
are often not addressed because of the cost/difficulty of making changes.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

People are still doing that? I thought that was abandoned even before (most)
people gave up on the idea that you're supposed to be sitting on the saddle,
hands on the drops, look down and have the front axle obscured by the
handlebar.

Funny thing is, despite my unusual dimensions, all of my 5 bikes conform
to that rule of thumb, although I didn't intentionally set them up that
way. I guess it's a reasonable starting point, although most people
don't seem to experiment with stem length (reach) as much as they should.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I noted in two LBS's that some expert riders (well, they seem to be to me)
check fit before a test ride by putting their elbow at the nose of the seat
and then extending their arms forward at a zero angle to the seat. This
puts their hands along the stem. Where should the steering tube or whatever
be in relation to some part of your anatomy doing this test?

I ask here because watching folks do this measurement I noted that each
person hit the steering tube at a slightly different part of his hand.
Thus if there is a standard measurement, I couldn't determine that by
spying on these experienced riders. TIA.

People are still doing that? I thought that was abandoned even before (most)
people gave up on the idea that you're supposed to be sitting on the saddle,
hands on the drops, look down and have the front axle obscured by the
handlebar.

As others have pointed out, different saddles have different nose designs,
and you orient your tail end based on what's going on at the back of the
saddle, not the front. As far as seat angle and fore/aft saddle positioning
affecting it, you could make the claim that positional change over the
pedals is compensated for because you're measuring off the saddle, so as it
moves forward, everything moves with it.

But such measurements don't have much to do with fit. It doesn't tell you
anything about torso length, nor how high or low someone's back needs to be
in order to be comfortable while riding.

--Mike Jacoubowsky

But it does show how poor these two shops of 'experts' are doing
fitting.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I noted in two LBS's that some expert riders (well, they seem to be to me)
check fit before a test ride by putting their elbow at the nose of the seat
and then extending their arms forward at a zero angle to the seat. This
puts their hands along the stem. Where should the steering tube or whatever
be in relation to some part of your anatomy doing this test?

I ask here because watching folks do this measurement I noted that each
person hit the steering tube at a slightly different part of his hand.
Thus if there is a standard measurement, I couldn't determine that by
spying on these experienced riders. TIA.

People are still doing that? I thought that was abandoned even before (most)
people gave up on the idea that you're supposed to be sitting on the saddle,
hands on the drops, look down and have the front axle obscured by the
handlebar.

As others have pointed out, different saddles have different nose designs,
and you orient your tail end based on what's going on at the back of the
saddle, not the front. As far as seat angle and fore/aft saddle positioning
affecting it, you could make the claim that positional change over the
pedals is compensated for because you're measuring off the saddle, so as it
moves forward, everything moves with it.

But such measurements don't have much to do with fit. It doesn't tell you
anything about torso length, nor how high or low someone's back needs to be
in order to be comfortable while riding.

--Mike Jacoubowsky

But it does show how poor these two shops of 'experts' are doing
fitting.

To clarify, it was the customers were who I referred to as measuring
this way prior to taking a test ride. I got the expertise idea from
chatting them up a bit and listening to them talk even more. The shop
prefers putting people on a trainer and then fitting them before even a
test ride.

These folks decided time was of the essence so chose to set the bikes up
themselves for the test rides (shop lent tools). The bike salesman and
trainer were quite busy that day with fitting and test rides.

-paul

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Cassel

Quoted message said:

I noted in two LBS's that some expert riders (well, they seem to be to
me) check fit before a test ride by putting their elbow at the nose of
the seat and then extending their arms forward at a zero angle to the
seat. This puts their hands along the stem. Where should the steering
tube or whatever be in relation to some part of your anatomy doing this
test?

I ask here because watching folks do this measurement I noted that each
person hit the steering tube at a slightly different part of his hand.
Thus if there is a standard measurement, I couldn't determine that by
spying on these experienced riders. TIA.

Paul,

To my knowledge, this is not a standard measurement by any expert
rider. This is a lazy way to determine roughly what the top tube's
length of the bike is. Those riders are making a lot of assumptions
that the new bike will have the *same* geometry as their current ride
(very unlikely unless it's from the same brand, model and year).
Geometry of bike frames can very change slightly from year to year
depending on which manufacturer.

What those riders could of done would be, to ask the expert shop people
for the geometry of the bike -- effective top tube length, seat tube
length, seat tube angle and head angle etc etc... Any expert rider
*knows* his or her measurements very well before he or she even goes to
the shop. The shop people should then make some preliminary
measurements of the rider to confirm existing measurements again, fetch
the right sized bike from the showroom and place it on the trainer.
Set the saddle up, change the stem if need be and then go for a test
ride.

David.

It's just an old rule of thumb. Yes, it depends on various things such as
the length of the saddle and where it is, but, it's a useful measure for
someone who already has a good setup on another bike or a previous bike and
who therefore knows where he/she wants the handlebars. It's just a quick and
easy check to do.

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I noted in two LBS's that some expert riders (well, they seem to be to me)
check fit before a test ride by putting their elbow at the nose of the seat
and then extending their arms forward at a zero angle to the seat. This
puts their hands along the stem. Where should the steering tube or whatever
be in relation to some part of your anatomy doing this test?

I ask here because watching folks do this measurement I noted that each
person hit the steering tube at a slightly different part of his hand.
Thus if there is a standard measurement, I couldn't determine that by
spying on these experienced riders. TIA.

Quoted message said:

But it does show how poor these two shops of 'experts' are doing
fitting.

OK, moment-of-truth time. I measure 5cm from the tip of my fingers to the
edge of the bar. What you got? :>😉

[But to be fair, the original poster later clarified things; it was
customers setting bikes up that way, not the shop. Geez, I can't imagine
what would happen if I loaned customers tools for test rides and told them
to change their own stems. Some would obviously be OK, but...]

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I noted in two LBS's that some expert riders (well, they seem to be to
me)
check fit before a test ride by putting their elbow at the nose of the
seat
and then extending their arms forward at a zero angle to the seat. This
puts their hands along the stem. Where should the steering tube or
whatever
be in relation to some part of your anatomy doing this test?

I ask here because watching folks do this measurement I noted that each
person hit the steering tube at a slightly different part of his hand.
Thus if there is a standard measurement, I couldn't determine that by
spying on these experienced riders. TIA.

People are still doing that? I thought that was abandoned even before
(most)
people gave up on the idea that you're supposed to be sitting on the
saddle,
hands on the drops, look down and have the front axle obscured by the
handlebar.

As others have pointed out, different saddles have different nose
designs,
and you orient your tail end based on what's going on at the back of the
saddle, not the front. As far as seat angle and fore/aft saddle
positioning
affecting it, you could make the claim that positional change over the
pedals is compensated for because you're measuring off the saddle, so as
it
moves forward, everything moves with it.

But such measurements don't have much to do with fit. It doesn't tell you
anything about torso length, nor how high or low someone's back needs to
be
in order to be comfortable while riding.

--Mike Jacoubowsky

But it does show how poor these two shops of 'experts' are doing
fitting.

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

>I noted in two LBS's that some expert riders (well, they

seem to be to me)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>check fit before a test ride by putting their elbow at the

nose of the seat

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>and then extending their arms forward at a zero angle to the

seat. This

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>puts their hands along the stem. Where should the steering

tube or whatever

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>be in relation to some part of your anatomy doing this test?
>
>I ask here because watching folks do this measurement I

noted that each

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>person hit the steering tube at a slightly different part of

his hand.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Thus if there is a standard measurement, I couldn't

determine that by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>spying on these experienced riders. TIA.

People are still doing that? I thought that was abandoned

even before (most)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people gave up on the idea that you're supposed to be sitting

on the saddle,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hands on the drops, look down and have the front axle

obscured by the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

handlebar.

As others have pointed out, different saddles have different

nose designs,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and you orient your tail end based on what's going on at the

back of the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

saddle, not the front. As far as seat angle and fore/aft

saddle positioning

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

affecting it, you could make the claim that positional change

over the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pedals is compensated for because you're measuring off the

saddle, so as it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

moves forward, everything moves with it.

But such measurements don't have much to do with fit. It

doesn't tell you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

anything about torso length, nor how high or low someone's

back needs to be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in order to be comfortable while riding.

--Mike Jacoubowsky

But it does show how poor these two shops of 'experts' are

doing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fitting.

To clarify, it was the customers were who I referred to as

measuring

Quoted message said:

this way prior to taking a test ride. I got the expertise idea

from

Quoted message said:

chatting them up a bit and listening to them talk even more.

The shop

Quoted message said:

prefers putting people on a trainer and then fitting them

before even a

Quoted message said:

test ride.

These folks decided time was of the essence so chose to set the

bikes up

Quoted message said:

themselves for the test rides (shop lent tools). The bike

salesman and

Quoted message said:

trainer were quite busy that day with fitting and test rides.

Anyone with significant experience just gets on the bike and
knows what needs to be changed to get a comfortable position. In
fact, the scientific sizing stuff has never resulted in a
comfortable ride for me. I indulged coaches and supposed experts
who tweaked various things to make me better at this or that, and
I have always unwound those changes so I could get comfortable.
I never got much grief for this because the science would change
before I got found out. In the mid '80s, there was a new position
every week -- not to mention a new pedalling style (now, am I
scraping dog [censored] off my sole or "ankling"?). Moreover, most
shops will not let you swap in a different stem for a test
ride -- or even raise a threadless stem. All you can do is
change saddle height, angle and set-back -- and if you cannot
imagine the ride with an appropriate stem, you are SOL. Maybe
some shops are better when selling uber-expensive bikes, but,
IME, most shops keep the fiddling to a minimum. -- Jay Beattie.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

OK, moment-of-truth time. I measure 5cm from the tip of my fingers to the
edge of the bar. What you got? :>😉

5.5cm, but I'm 6'3"

Art Harris

Many customers are able to use this forearm extended method to size up a
bike just because they happen to know how to work it out for themselves by
experience. I've used it. It gives a quick indication of whether something
is in the ballpark or not. Now, if the bike shop staff use it for fitting
customers, that's a whole other thing.
Pierre

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But it does show how poor these two shops of 'experts' are doing
fitting.

OK, moment-of-truth time. I measure 5cm from the tip of my fingers to the
edge of the bar. What you got? :>😉

[But to be fair, the original poster later clarified things; it was
customers setting bikes up that way, not the shop. Geez, I can't imagine
what would happen if I loaned customers tools for test rides and told them

Quoted message said:

Many customers are able to use this forearm extended method to size up a
bike just because they happen to know how to work it out for themselves by
experience. I've used it. It gives a quick indication of whether something
is in the ballpark or not. Now, if the bike shop staff use it for fitting
customers, that's a whole other thing.
Pierre

Pierre: Just so others have a clue as to what we're talking about here,
we're basically using our extended forearms as nothing more than a
yardstick, so we can make rough comparisons from bike to bike. Nothing
magical going on.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Simon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Many customers are able to use this forearm extended method to size up a
bike just because they happen to know how to work it out for themselves by
experience. I've used it. It gives a quick indication of whether something
is in the ballpark or not. Now, if the bike shop staff use it for fitting
customers, that's a whole other thing.
Pierre

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But it does show how poor these two shops of 'experts' are doing
fitting.

OK, moment-of-truth time. I measure 5cm from the tip of my fingers to the
edge of the bar. What you got? :>😉

[But to be fair, the original poster later clarified things; it was
customers setting bikes up that way, not the shop. Geez, I can't imagine
what would happen if I loaned customers tools for test rides and told
them

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

OK, moment-of-truth time. I measure 5cm from the tip of my fingers to the
edge of the bar. What you got? :>😉

The tip of my middle finger just makes it to the front of the top cap!
(this is 18.5in or 47cm)... I have a 120cmm long stem and it's about
9cm to get to the aft side of the bars.

BTW, the bars "do" just obscure my sight of the front hub... and I am a
6ft tall guy with pretty normal proportions on a 57cm (TT) frame...
feels fine to me.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

But it does show how poor these two shops of 'experts' are doing
fitting.

OK, moment-of-truth time. I measure 5cm from the tip of my fingers to the
edge of the bar. What you got? :>😉

I checked and I too have 5 cm. I just installed a new seatpost. Tomorrow
will be my first ride. That will tell the tale if it's right for me.

Thanks to you and others here for again clarifying a bike concept for me.

-paul

David said:

Paul,

To my knowledge, this is not a standard measurement by any expert
rider. This is a lazy way to determine roughly what the top tube's
length of the bike is. Those riders are making a lot of assumptions
that the new bike will have the *same* geometry as their current ride
(very unlikely unless it's from the same brand, model and year).
Geometry of bike frames can very change slightly from year to year
depending on which manufacturer.

What those riders could of done would be, to ask the expert shop people
for the geometry of the bike -- effective top tube length, seat tube
length, seat tube angle and head angle etc etc... Any expert rider
*knows* his or her measurements very well before he or she even goes to
the shop. The shop people should then make some preliminary
measurements of the rider to confirm existing measurements again, fetch
the right sized bike from the showroom and place it on the trainer.
Set the saddle up, change the stem if need be and then go for a test
ride.

Thanks David. Clearly these fellows were trying new bikes out and needed
to get them in the ballpark fitwise for a test run. The LBS in question
isn't tooled up for any volume. It's sort of a boutique place, but with
regular priced bikes. So when it gets a rush (three customers) it is
hard pressed to fit them all within a reasonable time. The salesman puts
the bike on a trainer, then the customer on the bike, then fiddles and
tweaks like crazy. It takes him at least 15 minutes to fit a bike.

That time is apparently too much to wait for folks who think they can
get an idea of what a bike will be like working on their own. Like Mike
said earlier in this thread, I'm somewhat suprised that the shop would
lend tools to customers to adjust the bikes here in the legal atmosphere
of the US, but it did.

Curiously, the shop is absolutely insistant that any test rider be
helmeted. You can leave the seatpost loose or the bars in the wrong
place, or the quick release open, but you need a hat.

-paul

Paul Cassel <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I noted in two LBS's that some expert riders (well, they seem to be to
me) check fit before a test ride by putting their elbow at the nose of
the seat and then extending their arms forward at a zero angle to the
seat. This puts their hands along the stem. Where should the steering
tube or whatever be in relation to some part of your anatomy doing this
test?

I ask here because watching folks do this measurement I noted that each
person hit the steering tube at a slightly different part of his hand.
Thus if there is a standard measurement, I couldn't determine that by
spying on these experienced riders. TIA

That's one of those absurd things that, becuase one person figures out that
it works for him or her, decides it works for everybody.

I once knew a guy who told me that a man could determine whether pants
would fit without trying them on by placing his forearm in the waist, from
his elbow to the heel of his palm.

My waist size has fluctuated by 8 inches over the last 15 years (34-42, now
back to 36) and my forearms have stayed exactly the same length the whole
time.

-HW.