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gritty road brakes

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Cycling Equipment
Published
8 August 2003
Last activity
13 August 2003
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Mike
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  1. Toward the end of a ride this morning on dry pavement I noticed that the front braking had that kind
    of gritty rubbing sound...indeed, there were several particles of something embedded in each of the
    front pads. It almost looked like aluminum, as if from the rim, but that didn't make sense to me.
    I've never given much thought to this kind of thing but the number of particles got me thinking: Is
    it common to get stuff embedded in the brake pads, to the extent that prying it out is a routine
    part of bike maintenance, or is my experience atypical (I've never really noticed it before)? I
    presume it's just grit from the road, but if not, do I have a rim problem (Dura-Ace wheels)? Is it
    correct to conclude that softer pad compounds are easier on the rims but also more susceptible to
    acquiring little rim-eating fragments? Thanks.....

    Mike

  2. Quoted message said:

    Toward the end of a ride this morning on dry pavement I noticed that the front braking had that
    kind of gritty rubbing sound...indeed, there were several particles of something embedded in
    each of the front pads. It almost looked like aluminum, as if from the rim, but that didn't make
    sense to me.

    Bingo. Very common. Phil Brown

  3. chainreaction.combrakeshoes.htm

    -Dion

    "Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Toward the end of a ride this morning on dry pavement I noticed that the front braking had that
    kind of gritty rubbing sound...indeed, there were several particles of something embedded in each
    of the front pads. It almost looked like aluminum, as if from the rim, but that didn't make sense
    to me. I've never given much thought to this kind of thing but the number of particles got me
    thinking: Is it common to get stuff embedded in the brake pads, to the extent that prying it out
    is a routine part of bike maintenance, or is my experience atypical (I've never really noticed it
    before)? I presume it's just grit from the road, but if not, do I have a rim problem (Dura-Ace
    wheels)? Is it correct to conclude that softer pad compounds are easier on the rims but also more
    susceptible to acquiring little rim-eating fragments? Thanks.....

    Mike

  4. If you go with ceramic (coated) rims, anything goes, pad-wise. They last 3-4 times the life of
    regular alluminum surface rims (as long as you don't beat them up by running into things), brake
    better, and there none of that alluminum oxide build-up when you go to change flats. I've been using
    them for over 10 years, I don't understand why more people don't have them. The initial outlay is
    2-3 times as much, but they pay for themselves in the long run.

    -pete

    "Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Toward the end of a ride this morning on dry pavement I noticed that the front braking had that
    kind of gritty rubbing sound...indeed, there were several particles of something embedded in each
    of the front pads. It almost looked like aluminum, as if from the rim, but that didn't make sense
    to me. I've never given much thought to this kind of thing but the number of particles got me
    thinking: Is it common to get stuff embedded in the brake pads, to the extent that prying it out
    is a routine part of bike maintenance, or is my experience atypical (I've never really noticed it
    before)? I presume it's just grit from the road, but if not, do I have a rim problem (Dura-Ace
    wheels)? Is it correct to conclude that softer pad compounds are easier on the rims but also more
    susceptible to acquiring little rim-eating fragments? Thanks.....

    Mike

  5. Pete Grey said:

    If you go with ceramic (coated) rims, anything goes, pad-wise.

    Not true at all, see the FAQ below for why.

    Quoted message said:

    They last 3-4 times the life of regular alluminum surface rims (as long as you don't beat them up
    by running into things), brake better, and there none of that alluminum oxide build-up when you go
    to change flats. I've been using them for over 10 years, I don't understand why more people don't
    have them.

    Ceramic braking surfaces last longer but degrade, not improve, braking performance, and they eat
    brake pads. Explanation in the FAQ:

    faqs.orgsection 33.html
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA htttp://www.terrrymorse.com/bike/

  6. [censored].

    ceramic rims are great, /definitely/ improve braking and last forever. don't let anyone tell you
    different.

    just because cant and witchcraft get repeated with sickening regularity on this forum - particularly
    cant and witchcraft masquerading as "technical wisdom" from people that specialize in scornfully
    deriding anyone that /dares/ raise the specter of truth - has _zero_ effect on it's accuracy.

    jim beam

    Terry Morse said:
    Pete Grey said:

    If you go with ceramic (coated) rims, anything goes, pad-wise.

    Not true at all, see the FAQ below for why.

    Quoted message said:

    They last 3-4 times the life of regular alluminum surface rims (as long as you don't beat them up
    by running into things), brake better, and there none of that alluminum oxide build-up when you go
    to change flats. I've been using them for over 10 years, I don't understand why more people don't
    have them.

    Ceramic braking surfaces last longer but degrade, not improve, braking performance, and they eat
    brake pads. Explanation in the FAQ:

    faqs.orgsection 33.html
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA htttp://www.terrrymorse.com/bike/

  7. I have ruined a set of rims by trying to clean the aluminum out of them. It didn't work.

    If I see chips of silver in a pad, I immediately suspect it to be metal. I check the rim
    carefully, with a cotton ball to see if it's scarred, sand it lightly if necessary and chuck the
    pads for new ones.

    One pair of Fiamme red lables was enough of a lesson for me!

    May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

    Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": geocities.comczcorner

  8. [email hidden] (Pete=A0Grey) wote:

    Quoted message said:

    If you go with ceramic (coated) rims, anything goes, pad-wise. They last 3-4 times the life of
    regular alluminum surface rims (as long as you don't beat them up by running into things), brake
    better, and there none of that alluminum oxide build-up when you go to change flats. I've been
    using them for over 10 years, I don't understand why more people don't have them. The initial
    outlay is 2-3 times as much, but they pay for themselves in the long run.

    Quoted message said:

    -pete

    Do they make a touring rim (700c, hook bead, 25+mm width, preferably in a box channel
    cross section)?

    May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

    Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": geocities.comczcorner

  9. Quoted message said:

    I have ruined a set of rims by trying to clean the aluminum out of them. It didn't work.

    Uh... did you mean what you said?

    --
    Phil, Squid-in-Training

  10. "Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I have ruined a set of rims by trying to clean the aluminum out of them. It didn't work.

    Uh... did you mean what you said?

    --

    Considering the subject line, no.

    --
    Robin Hubert <[email hidden]

  11. "Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Toward the end of a ride this morning on dry pavement I noticed that the front braking had that
    kind of gritty rubbing sound...indeed, there were several particles of something embedded in each
    of the front pads. It almost looked like aluminum, as if from the rim, but that didn't make sense
    to me. I've never given much thought to this kind of thing but the number of particles got me
    thinking: Is it common to get stuff embedded in the brake pads, to the extent that prying it out
    is a routine part of bike maintenance, or is my experience atypical (I've never really noticed it
    before)? I presume it's just grit from the road, but if not, do I have a rim problem (Dura-Ace
    wheels)? Is it correct to conclude that softer pad compounds are easier on the rims but also more
    susceptible to acquiring little rim-eating fragments? Thanks.....

    What happens is that little pieces of road grit get stuck in the brake pads during wet rides. These
    shave off bits of aluminum, and wear out rims quickly. You can dig them out, but it's a bother. A
    better solution is to use pads with a hard enough compound that prevents grit pick up. The best
    working type is KoolStop "salmon" colored pads.

  12. "jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]..

    Quoted message said:


    Terry Morse said:
    Pete Grey said:

    If you go with ceramic (coated) rims, anything goes, pad-wise.

    Not true at all, see the FAQ below for why.


    .

    Quoted message said:

    [censored].

    ceramic rims are great, /definitely/ improve braking and last forever. don't let anyone tell you
    different.

    I have ceramic rims on one bike. They're OK, not great. I don't think they're worth the expense &
    drawbacks overall.

  13. jim beam said:

    [censored].

    ceramic rims are great, /definitely/ improve braking and last forever. don't let anyone tell you
    different.

    just because cant and witchcraft get repeated with sickening regularity on this forum -
    particularly cant and witchcraft masquerading as "technical wisdom" from people that specialize in
    scornfully deriding anyone that /dares/ raise the specter of truth - has _zero_ effect on it's
    accuracy.

    jim beam

    Well, well, Mister Top Poster. Since you have dared to raise the "specter of truth" among the
    heathens, you're now on the hot seat. Please explain where the FAQ is wrong when it comes to ceramic
    braking surfaces, and be prepared to back up your argument with technical details. This is a
    technical newsgroup, after.

    This should be entertaining.

    Quoted message said:
    Terry Morse said:
    Pete Grey said:

    If you go with ceramic (coated) rims, anything goes, pad-wise.

    Not true at all, see the FAQ below for why.

    Quoted message said:

    They last 3-4 times the life of regular alluminum surface rims (as long as you don't beat them
    up by running into things), brake better, and there none of that alluminum oxide build-up when
    you go to change flats. I've been using them for over 10 years, I don't understand why more
    people don't have them.

    Ceramic braking surfaces last longer but degrade, not improve, braking performance, and they eat
    brake pads. Explanation in the FAQ:

    faqs.orgsection 33.html
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA htttp://www.terrrymorse.com/bike/

  14. you don't sound like a guy that really wants to learn, just argue.

    anyway, the main contention of the "no ceramic" argument is that "ceramic is an insulator". thermal
    insulation and electrical insulation are not the same. indeed, if some ceramics were not able to
    function as excellent thermal conductors while acting as electrical insulators, you wouldn't be able
    to read this message because most of the chips in your
    p.c. rely on these twin properties for their substrates.

    the ceramics used in rims /are/ good thermal conductors and therefore work very well - as people
    that use them can attest.

    why are you so hostile? and what is the reason for assuming that a multi-million dollar a year
    multi-nationals like mavic [or any of the other non-cycling component manufacturers that use this
    kind of anti-wear treatment] would bother pouring millions of dollars into r & d and yet still
    somehow fail to comprehend the fundamental "thermal" physics as assumed by the faq?

    jb

    Terry Morse said:
    jim beam said:

    [censored].

    ceramic rims are great, /definitely/ improve braking and last forever. don't let anyone tell you
    different.

    just because cant and witchcraft get repeated with sickening regularity on this forum -
    particularly cant and witchcraft masquerading as "technical wisdom" from people that specialize in
    scornfully deriding anyone that /dares/ raise the specter of truth - has _zero_ effect on it's
    accuracy.

    jim beam

    Well, well, Mister Top Poster. Since you have dared to raise the "specter of truth" among the
    heathens, you're now on the hot seat. Please explain where the FAQ is wrong when it comes to
    ceramic braking surfaces, and be prepared to back up your argument with technical details. This is
    a technical newsgroup, after.

    This should be entertaining.

    Quoted message said:
    Terry Morse said:

    Pete Grey wrote:

    >If you go with ceramic (coated) rims, anything goes, pad-wise.

    Not true at all, see the FAQ below for why.

    >They last 3-4 times the life of regular alluminum surface rims (as long as you don't beat them
    >up by running into things), brake better, and there none of that alluminum oxide build-up when
    >you go to change flats. I've been using them for over 10 years, I don't understand why more
    >people don't have them.

    Ceramic braking surfaces last longer but degrade, not improve, braking performance, and they eat
    brake pads. Explanation in the FAQ:

    faqs.orgsection 33.html
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA htttp://www.terrrymorse.com/bike/

  15. "jim beam" <[email hidden]> top-posted yet again in message
    "]news:[email hidden], forcing me to cut 'n paste thusly:

    Quoted message said:
    Terry Morse said:
    jim beam said:

    [censored].

    ceramic rims are great, /definitely/ improve braking and last forever. don't let anyone tell you
    different.

    just because cant and witchcraft get repeated with sickening regularity on this forum -
    particularly cant and witchcraft masquerading as "technical wisdom" from people that specialize
    in scornfully deriding anyone that /dares/ raise the specter of truth - has _zero_ effect on
    it's accuracy.

    jim beam

    Well, well, Mister Top Poster. Since you have dared to raise the "specter of truth" among the
    heathens, you're now on the hot seat. Please explain where the FAQ is wrong when it comes to
    ceramic braking surfaces, and be prepared to back up your argument with technical details. This
    is a technical newsgroup, after.

    This should be entertaining.

    Quoted message said:

    why are you so hostile?

    OK, so let me get this straight: you call someone else's opinion "[censored]". He replies, challenging
    you to back up your argument. Then you ask why HE is so hostile?!?

    Got it.

    Bill "Crossmax XL ceramics, btw; great wheels but braking surface ain't nothin' special" S.

  16. you're right bill.

    and i apologise to terry for the filthy mouth. it's not you. i just get wound up reading an faq that
    is so often repeated and yet just plain wrong.

    jb

    Quoted message said:

    OK, so let me get this straight: you call someone else's opinion "[censored]". He replies,
    challenging you to back up your argument. Then you ask why HE is so hostile?!?

    Got it.

    Bill "Crossmax XL ceramics, btw; great wheels but braking surface ain't nothin' special" S.

  17. jim beam said:

    anyway, the main contention of the "no ceramic" argument is that "ceramic is an insulator".
    thermal insulation and electrical insulation are not the same. indeed, if some ceramics were not
    able to function as excellent thermal conductors while acting as electrical insulators, you
    wouldn't be able to read this message because most of the chips in your
    p.c. rely on these twin properties for their substrates.

    Alumina is the ceramic material most often used on bicycle rims. Alumina (Al2 O3) has a _thermal_
    conductivity about 16% that of aluminum, so replacing aluminum with alumina reduces the conductivity
    by a factor of 6. The FAQ implies this, so I don't see where the FAQ is clearly wrong.

    Quoted message said:

    the ceramics used in rims /are/ good thermal conductors and therefore work very well - as people
    that use them can attest.

    Six times worse than the material it replaces is not my idea of "very well".

    Quoted message said:

    and what is the reason for assuming that a multi-million dollar a year multi-nationals like mavic
    [or any of the other non-cycling component manufacturers that use this kind of anti-wear
    treatment] would bother pouring millions of dollars into r & d and yet still somehow fail to
    comprehend the fundamental "thermal" physics as assumed by the faq?

    There are any number of "innovations" put out by Mavic and others that show their disregard for (or
    ignorance of) durability and performance. Changing from dual-sockets to single, hard anodizing, and
    machining sidewalls are three such examples. The naive public without the ability to judge these
    items on an engineering basis buy these "innovations" as improvements, when in fact they are just
    the opposite.

    Ceramic coatings on the braking surface is another problem source. The only valid justification for
    their use would be in very dirty environments that would otherwise wear down aluminum quickly. The
    trade-off for using ceramic is decreased braking performance and quickly wearing pads.
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA http:/www.terrymorse.com/bike/

  18. "Do they make a touring rim (700c, hook bead, 25+mm width, preferably in a box channel
    cross section)?

    I saw some NOS MA2/40 (I can't remember which) on www.renaissancecycles.com.

    Now if I could just find some Campy Omega XL clinchers, I'll be happy as a pig in mud.

    That help?

    Mike

    May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

    Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": geocities.comczcorner

  19. Quoted message said:

    I have ceramic rims on one bike. They're OK, not great. I don't think


    they're

    Quoted message said:

    worth the expense & drawbacks overall.


    I inherited a pair of wheels that had Reflex Ceramic rims. The front was a normal Reflex, the rear
    is a SSC with 3 sets of Mavic logos. The rear evidently doesn't have as much ceramic coating, 'cause
    my regular brakes last on the rear, but the fronts are gone quickly.

    The braking is good, but the rim eats pads if you aren't running the ceramic specific pads.

    I'd stay away if you're riding mtn bikes anywhere where you're likely to taco the wheel 'cause
    replacing the ceramic rim is spendy. I've hit strange things (roots, rocks, funny ruts, etc.) mtn
    biking and have had to rebuild wheels several times in quick succession.

    That help?

    Mike

    Mike

  20. Quoted message said:

    Alumina is the ceramic material most often used on bicycle rims.

    * it's not pure alumina. it contains a number of ceramic elements which improve both wear resistance
    and thermal conductivity - including titania and allegedly silicon carbide - but i can't confirm
    this, unfortunately.

    Quoted message said:

    Alumina (Al2 O3) has a _thermal_ conductivity about 16% that of aluminum

    * a lot of rim alloys are 6061 or thereabouts. 6061 only has 70% of the thermal conductivity of pure
    al, i.e. 167W/mK vs. 237W/mK.

    * some alumina/silicon carbide ceramics have thermal conductivities in the range of 71-200W/mK,
    potentially much better than 6061.

    Quoted message said:

    There are any number of "innovations" put out by Mavic and others that show their disregard for
    (or ignorance of) durability and performance. Changing from dual-sockets to single,

    * there was a time when i would have agreed with you on this, but my experience is that it depends
    on the application. ma3's are very strong & reliable - more so than open pro's in my view. making
    these double eyelet would be an exercise in pointlessness.

    hard anodizing,

    * my experience of hard anodizing has been great. like ceramic, it's much less prone to the effects
    of pad contamination and continues to offer a highly wear resistant braking surface in all
    conditions. plain al rims with contaminated pads have been far worse at stopping me in the wet
    than ceramic or hard anodized.

    and for the record, i've read substantial verbiage on this group to the effect that anodizing causes
    fatigue. in rim applications this is almost never the case from all the examples i've seen.

    in extreme cases, cracked anodizing /can/ be a fatigue initiator, but this is not seen often in the
    kind off applications we're talking about here. all kinds of fatigue-loaded components in planes,
    cars, motorcycles and bicycles are anodized for corrosion resistance very successfully with no
    adverse affects. one notable example has to be suspension forks. both bicycle and motorcycle forks
    use [hard] anodized stantions for improved friction properties, corrosion and wear resistance, and
    i've yet to see fatigue resulting from the anodizing alone - it's always been initiated by stone
    strike damage or some other flaw.

    unforunately, the cracking most commonly attributed to anodizing-initiated fatigue in bicycle rims -
    pure circumferential cracking - is actually due to extrusion weaknesses in the alloy's
    microstucture. if anyone wants to drag a certain french rim manufacturer over red hot coals for poor
    q.c. in this department, be my guest, but don't blame it on the anodizing.

    and machining

    Quoted message said:

    sidewalls

    * this is one that requires a real double-take when reading the faq! machines sidewalls offer
    several benefits:

    1. there is no "bed in" period for the pads - they fit right out of the box and provide full
    braking power. i really notice the difference braking an unmachined rim on new pads vs. a
    machined rim & new pads.

    2. there is no potential for wheels locking at any bumps at the joint. i know some people swear this
    is never an issue, but i can personally attest to owning a mavic cxp14 unmachined rim showing a
    marked propensity to locking when under full braking - there is a bald patch on my tire where the
    lock sets in at the same place every time.

    3. rims are _not_ "machined with ridges to prevent squeal" or merely for appearance. 6061 is not
    very friendly to normal lathe operations [the surface has a tendency to gouge and rip when the
    machining off-cut fouls the tool]. the ridges on the machined surface are merely the result of
    using a slightly convex diamond cutting tool which offers the best [read: cheapest, fastest,
    cleanest] machining results for this application in a single pass.

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