Quoted message said:Subject: Re: "lies" vs "errors"
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 5/16/2004 3:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:
<[email hidden]>
"Henry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:Many posters here claim that Jan tells "lies", and google offers hundreds
if
Quoted message said:not thousands of references offered as proofs of her deceptions and
falsehoods. Well, folks, I'm here to tell you that she is not nearly the
liar, cheat, deceiver that you think she is, and this explanation applies
equally to many here - I use Jan as an example because... because...
well, she's just such a perfect example.
To be a "lie", the liar must know at the moment of utterance that the
statement is false. However, history has shown us that when a liar repeats
a
Quoted message said:falsehood enough times, it becomes indistinguishable from truth - to that
liar. Eventually it becomes more of an error than a lie, and is honestly
offered to inform rather than to deceive or mislead. Though factually
wrong,
Quoted message said:and with its origins in deception, it evolves into a passionate statement
of
Quoted message said:[truth as I know it!]. So what would you call that statement? It's no
longer
Quoted message said:a lie... but an error, an honest mistake.
I don't wish to exalt the liars here by comparing them to famous
prevaricators of history, but history teaches us that many of them began
with self-serving lies, then eventually perfected and adopted their
falsehoods as [truth as I know it!]. During that process, their statements
became sincere, their arguments took on the self-righteous fervor of the
absolutely correct, their rebuttals were perfected.... and their
constituencies voted for them. I suppose one example will help make this
point. There was a moment somewhere between 1923 and 1945 when Corporal
Adolf [censored] began believing his own rhetoric, and from that time on he
was
Quoted message said:perhaps the most persuasive and convincing sociopath alive.
So, based on the above, here's an interesting question: what percentage of
intelligent and educated (naturopaths, homeopaths, chiropractors,
iridologists, yada yada) actually *believes* the diagnostic and
therapeutic
Quoted message said:claptrap on which such quacks' incomes depend?
A most interesting question. I have often pondered it. The problem is
that it is not just quacks who can become misled by by the crazy quilt of
influences that can determine perceived outcomes within day-to-day medical
practice (spontaneous events, answers of politeness, patient subordination,
true placebo effects, reversion to the mean, observer biases etc ).
These are powerful enough to impress sincere and eminent doctors. Three
examples of this: glomectomy for asthma, gastric freezing for duodenal
ulcer and internal mammary artery ligation for angina. These and many
other experimental mainstream procdures were claimed to have 80-90 per cent
success rates by enthusiatic pioneers, whereas subsequent controlled trials
showed that sham procedures performed just as well. It took no less than
eleven controlled trials using sham procedures to dispose of all the hype
surrounding glomectomy. Chelation is I am sure a similar case, where the
promoters are convinced they are seeing dramatic results, largely because of
the erratic behaviour and placebo responsiveness of the things they are
treating. The ability to overlook or find excuses for failures, as in the
recent Kadile chelation case, helps. .
So I am inclined to give most alt. practitioners the benefit of the doubt.
"Therapeutic illusions" are prevalent and powerful. I am sure you are
right that other factors can be involved such as habituation. A tentative
belief can become entrenched if you are motivated to emphasise all
supportive evidence and blind yourself anything that opposes.
The real liars/frauds are probably more strongly represented within MLM
schemes and spammers. There are some alt cancer therapists who I think are
quite deluded rather than liars.
Peter Moran
This is proof of how Peter judges, and thinks.what's more most if no all of the
*gang* jumped in and lied for him.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/809196.asp
Peter Moran wrote:
All medical advances have entailed risk, ever since the first caveman said"I
wonder what this berry does?".
Using retroviruses to try and correct lethal and potentially lethal gene
defects is a very legitimate and logic alavenue of medical research. So this is
nothing to do with "conspiracies", "coverups" .
It is a matter of the quality of informed consent that was applied. It would
be unusual these days for such issues to not be addressed carefully by the
researchers and the ethics committees to which all clinical trials are
submitted thesedays. We cannot know how culpable the doctors are from this
rather emotive news item.
Peter Moran
==============================
Years earlier, a scientist just a few miles away from the Gelsinger’s home in
Tucson had raised serious questions about whether the experiment was safe.
Documents
• Feb. 8, 2002: FDA letter, attempt to ban Dr. Wilson from other
experiments.
• March 3, 2000: FDA Warning Letter, original findings about the gene
therapy experiment.
(SEE ANY COVER-UPS THERE, PETER??)
The trouble is, Paul Gelsinger says, Dr. Wilson’s team had never told him
that anyone had ever raised questions about safety
(That's fine and dandy according to organized medicine member, Peter Moran.)
AND PETER BOWDITCH!!
ADVERSE REACTIONS WERE NOT REPORTED
And that was just the beginning. Federal investigators, pouring through
Penn’s records, announced at the conference that they had made a series of
startling discoveries, raising questions about whether the doctors had covered
up problems and broken basic test rules.
In fact, just a few months before Jesse had signed up for the experiment,
several monkeys given viruses similar to Jesse’s got sick. And two of them
died.
(SEE ANY COVER-UP THERE PETER??))
The rules for the experiment said: Even if volunteers didn’t get visibly ill,
if tests showed that any of them had a significant reaction called “grade
3,†the experiment was supposed to be “halted†immediately.
Records show there were “grade 3†reactions in more than one
patient. The first time, doctors stopped, called the government and got
permission to continue, saying an unusual condition with the patient might have
been the cause.
The second time, they stopped, called and got permission again, citing
another unusual condition.
But when it happened a third time, they didn’t stop, didn’t call.
Then, a fourth time. They didn’t stop or call then either
(FOUR TIMES PETER!!!!!)
For their own safety, volunteers weren’t supposed to have a blood
ammonia level higher than 50. But people were coming in with higher levels and
without proper approval. The limit was raised to 70.
When Jesse signed up over the summer, he was within the limits, but
records show that when Penn doctors tested him, just days before the
experiment, his reading was 114 — more than double the original safety limit.
(That's way cool huh Peter???)
HIGH FINANCIAL STAKES
With so many red flags from the monkey deaths to the reactions in other
volunteers, even to Jesse’s own ammonia levels, Why had Dr. Wilson’s team
allowed the experiment to continue?
(Wonder if Peter can answer this question?)
At the University of Pennsylvania, the conflict committee approved Dr.
Wilson’s arrangement with Genovo.
In fact, the university itself owned a piece of his company and stood to
profit, too.
(Hmmmmmmmmm).
In a statement, the university acknowledged that some information
“should have been shared with the FDA sooner.â€
(Just a minor little slip,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
There was no information given to Jesse or his family about the monkey deaths.
There was no information given to Jesse or his family about toxic results in
prior patients. There was no information that would allow Jesse and his family
to make any kind of informed decision.â€
(Peter STILL can't see any coverup!!!! NO dishonesty!)
CONFIDENTIAL REPORTS
He told congress that other private companies in the race for cures had
also been doing gene therapy experiments and had also gotten adverse reactions.
But instead of sharing the information, government rules allowed them to stamp
those reactions “confidential,†classifying them as trade secrets to
protect their research investments.
So, while the government knew about them, other researchers like Dr.
Wilson and volunteers like Jesse Gelsinger were never allowed to see them.
(TRust the government!!!)
“I was outraged,†says Paul. “I had a right to know. Jesse had a right to
know.
(Oh my,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,emotions).
***In February, the Food and Drug Administration said that because Dr. Wilson
filed “false and misleading†reports and “repeatedly and deliberately
violated regulations***
REPEAT FOR THE HARD HEADED!!!
Dr. Wilson filed “false and misleading†reports and “repeatedly and
deliberately violated regulations
(No coverups,,,,,,,,,,no fraud,,,,,,,,,,no deliberate violations,,,,,,,,,,,,)
HOW DOES THAT GRAB YOU PETER BOWITCH?????
This week marks the third anniversary of Jesse Gelsinger’s death. At
the University of Pennsylvania, Dr. Wilson
****is still on the faculty****
(Soooooooooo in organized medicine,,,,,,,,,,,)
****Filing *false and misleading reports* is A OK,,,,,,,,,,,,****
****REPEATED and DELIBERATE violations,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is A OK.***
but no longer in charge of its gene therapy program. And, in Congress,
lawmakers are still debating legislation to provide more protection for medical
volunteers.
******in the end, whether Jesse was betrayed by the doctors he and his family
thought they could trust.*********
====
Nuff said.
Jan
