Curious--

Lass Chance_2 <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>I suppose many of us have had this experience---you "fall off", eat
:> something carby and the scale registers a two pound gain the next
:> day....?

Water weight, provided you didn't eat a ton of food as you fell off. Then
it could be "food gain" as well.

:>
:> Mu question....

Are you asking a question of Mu? Why, oh why, oh why? Be happy he isn't
posting here lately.

what IS that weight gain? I mean...clearly it's not a
:> 'real" gain of two pounds of body fat.....but what IS it? water?
:> or...what? and why?

If you just ate some plain sugar, way less than that needed to gain weight
or make you over eat calories, those carbs get converted to glucose and
stored as glycogen in your muscles and liver. Along with them come water
molecules, as they attach to glycogen. Hence, you gain what is called "water
weight."

It's difficult to say exactly how much is water weight because when you
fall off a LC diet, after you've been eating so much fat, it's possible that
they extra carbs will bring out insulin and result in stored bodyfat, if you
overeat (assuming you're not lifting and trying to gain muscle - then the
insulin will tend to promote muscle growth too, if you're getting sufficient
protein). If you don't overeat, then the water weight will fade if you
resume your LC diet.

Anyway, just a quickie response....someone else may have more time to wax
poetic.

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Lass Chance_2) said:

I suppose many of us have had this experience---you "fall off", eat
something carby and the scale registers a two pound gain the next
day....?

Mu question....what IS that weight gain? I mean...clearly it's not a
'real" gain of two pounds of body fat.....but what IS it? water?
or...what? and why?

Just curious--

---in the aftermath of eating a chimichanga day before yesterday.

LassChance

Glycogen stores:

http://www.primusweb.com/fitnesspartner/library/weight/scale.htm

Cheers!
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

On 27/9/05 12:26 AM, in article [email hidden], "Roger

Zoul said:

Lass Chance_2 <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>I suppose many of us have had this experience---you "fall off", eat
:> something carby and the scale registers a two pound gain the next
:> day....?

Water weight, provided you didn't eat a ton of food as you fell off. Then
it could be "food gain" as well.

:>
:> Mu question....

Are you asking a question of Mu? Why, oh why, oh why? Be happy he isn't
posting here lately.

what IS that weight gain? I mean...clearly it's not a
:> 'real" gain of two pounds of body fat.....but what IS it? water?
:> or...what? and why?

If you just ate some plain sugar, way less than that needed to gain weight
or make you over eat calories, those carbs get converted to glucose and
stored as glycogen in your muscles and liver. Along with them come water
molecules, as they attach to glycogen. Hence, you gain what is called "water
weight."

This is often proposed as a reason for rapid i.e. overnight weight gain but
it doesn't stand up to close examination because it also happens with people
who are not in ketosis, not in fact on any form of low carb diet.

I am not in ketosis, though I avoid pasta and potatoes, white bread etc.,
but still eat plenty of carbs. I am not over weight but can still find that
after a few days of excess, for example after a weekend away, I have gained
two or three pounds. It goes away as rapidly as it comes, but it isn't water
weight as I am not in ketosis, it isn't muscle glycogen stores, not in the
normal sense as I haven't exercised although I usually do, and it certainly
isn't fat as my excess does not even approach seven thousand or more
calories. It isn't related to menstrual cycles and although indicated on
several scales, - and so not a scale error - doesn't seem to alter clothing
sizes - nothing seems appreciably tighter.

None of the "pat" answers seem to apply.

I have some theories, one is that on these occasions I am drinking less tea
and coffee (diuretics) and so retain more water, and that the rest from
exercise allows the muscles to regenerate more than normal and so bulks them
a little more than normal. Sort of like when you load with Creatine, the
added muscle bulk is rapid and not real growth. Also in my case, I tend to
drink more alcohol, dehydrating me and causing me to drink more liquids.

A lot more needs to learned about human metabolism, we aren't remotely close
to knowing it all yet. It isn't as simple as 3500 calories = one extra pound
of fat.

SS

If you are eating more stuff you are likely ingesting more salt as well.
That can make a big difference in water retention and has nothing to do with
glycogen.

Secret Squirrel wrote:
|
| This is often proposed as a reason for rapid i.e. overnight weight
| gain but it doesn't stand up to close examination because it also
| happens with people who are not in ketosis, not in fact on any form
| of low carb diet.
|
| I am not in ketosis, though I avoid pasta and potatoes, white bread
| etc., but still eat plenty of carbs. I am not over weight but can
| still find that after a few days of excess, for example after a
| weekend away, I have gained two or three pounds. It goes away as
| rapidly as it comes, but it isn't water weight as I am not in
| ketosis, it isn't muscle glycogen stores, not in the normal sense as
| I haven't exercised although I usually do, and it certainly isn't fat
| as my excess does not even approach seven thousand or more calories.
| It isn't related to menstrual cycles and although indicated on
| several scales, - and so not a scale error - doesn't seem to alter
| clothing sizes - nothing seems appreciably tighter.
|
| None of the "pat" answers seem to apply.
|
| I have some theories, one is that on these occasions I am drinking
| less tea and coffee (diuretics) and so retain more water, and that
| the rest from exercise allows the muscles to regenerate more than
| normal and so bulks them a little more than normal. Sort of like when
| you load with Creatine, the added muscle bulk is rapid and not real
| growth. Also in my case, I tend to drink more alcohol, dehydrating me
| and causing me to drink more liquids.
|
| A lot more needs to learned about human metabolism, we aren't
| remotely close to knowing it all yet. It isn't as simple as 3500
| calories = one extra pound of fat.
|
| SS

Secret Squirrel <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> On 27/9/05 12:26 AM, in article [email hidden],
:> "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:>> Lass Chance_2 <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>> :>I suppose many of us have had this experience---you "fall off",
:>> :> eat something carby and the scale registers a two pound gain the
:>> :> next day....?
:>>
:>> Water weight, provided you didn't eat a ton of food as you fell
:>> off. Then it could be "food gain" as well.
:>>
:>> :>
:>> :> Mu question....
:>>
:>> Are you asking a question of Mu? Why, oh why, oh why? Be happy he
:>> isn't posting here lately.
:>>
:>> what IS that weight gain? I mean...clearly it's not a
:>> :> 'real" gain of two pounds of body fat.....but what IS it? water?
:>> :> or...what? and why?
:>>
:>> If you just ate some plain sugar, way less than that needed to gain
:>> weight or make you over eat calories, those carbs get converted to
:>> glucose and stored as glycogen in your muscles and liver. Along
:>> with them come water molecules, as they attach to glycogen. Hence,
:>> you gain what is called "water weight."
:>
:> This is often proposed as a reason for rapid i.e. overnight weight
:> gain but it doesn't stand up to close examination because it also
:> happens with people who are not in ketosis, not in fact on any form
:> of low carb diet.

I'm not sure if it is proposed as a reason fo rapid weight gain for
everyone, but it is definitely a reason for those on a LC diet who have
depleted glycogen stores - and it is very repeatable. Also, it is not
proposed as the only reason for rapid weight gain.

:>
:> I am not in ketosis, though I avoid pasta and potatoes, white bread
:> etc., but still eat plenty of carbs. I am not over weight but can
:> still find that after a few days of excess, for example after a
:> weekend away, I have gained two or three pounds.

AFter a few days of excess, you might have extra "stuff" in your intestines,
festering around 🙂

It goes away as
:> rapidly as it comes, but it isn't water weight as I am not in
:> ketosis, it isn't muscle glycogen stores, not in the normal sense as
:> I haven't exercised although I usually do, and it certainly isn't
:> fat as my excess does not even approach seven thousand or more
:> calories. It isn't related to menstrual cycles and although
:> indicated on several scales, - and so not a scale error - doesn't
:> seem to alter clothing sizes - nothing seems appreciably tighter.
:>
:> None of the "pat" answers seem to apply.

None that you considered, that is...

:>
:> I have some theories, one is that on these occasions I am drinking
:> less tea and coffee (diuretics) and so retain more water,

Possible...extreme changes might have an effect...

and that
:> the rest from exercise allows the muscles to regenerate more than
:> normal and so bulks them a little more than normal.

I don't know what you mean by "regenerate more than normal". That sounds a
bit like hooyie to me...

:> Sort of like
:> when you load with Creatine, the added muscle bulk is rapid and not
:> real growth. Also in my case, I tend to drink more alcohol,
:> dehydrating me and causing me to drink more liquids.
:>

With creatine, it is water weight if i recall correctly.

:> A lot more needs to learned about human metabolism, we aren't
:> remotely close to knowing it all yet. It isn't as simple as 3500
:> calories = one extra pound of fat.

It's that simple under the appropriate conditions...but trying to apply that
logic to every change on the scale is not appropriate.

On 27/9/05 2:24 AM, in article [email hidden],

FOB said:

If you are eating more stuff you are likely ingesting more salt as well.
That can make a big difference in water retention and has nothing to do with
glycogen.

Secret Squirrel wrote:
|
| This is often proposed as a reason for rapid i.e. overnight weight
| gain but it doesn't stand up to close examination because it also
| happens with people who are not in ketosis, not in fact on any form
| of low carb diet.
|
| I am not in ketosis, though I avoid pasta and potatoes, white bread
| etc., but still eat plenty of carbs. I am not over weight but can
| still find that after a few days of excess, for example after a
| weekend away, I have gained two or three pounds. It goes away as
| rapidly as it comes, but it isn't water weight as I am not in
| ketosis, it isn't muscle glycogen stores, not in the normal sense as
| I haven't exercised although I usually do, and it certainly isn't fat
| as my excess does not even approach seven thousand or more calories.
| It isn't related to menstrual cycles and although indicated on
| several scales, - and so not a scale error - doesn't seem to alter
| clothing sizes - nothing seems appreciably tighter.
|
| None of the "pat" answers seem to apply.
|
| I have some theories, one is that on these occasions I am drinking
| less tea and coffee (diuretics) and so retain more water, and that
| the rest from exercise allows the muscles to regenerate more than
| normal and so bulks them a little more than normal. Sort of like when
| you load with Creatine, the added muscle bulk is rapid and not real
| growth. Also in my case, I tend to drink more alcohol, dehydrating me
| and causing me to drink more liquids.
|
| A lot more needs to learned about human metabolism, we aren't
| remotely close to knowing it all yet. It isn't as simple as 3500
| calories = one extra pound of fat.
|
| SS

This another pat answer that people give but don't think through. Salt
absorbs water, yes, but it can't hold more than it's own weight in water so
to put on a couple of pounds of water weight, purely as retained by extra
salt, you would need to eat several extra POUNDS of salt. Not possible.

I eat, at all times, an enormous amount of salt. I do not have high blood
pressure and so have no need to minimize salt. I exercise a lot, and need to
replace salt lost to sweat. It never makes any difference to my normal day
to day weight, although if I am in a situation where I am forced to eat low
salt meals - as has happened at some resort seminars etc. - I do experience
a loss of energy and poor digestion until I can replace the salt. Low salt
products are like low cholesterol products, great if you have a genuine
problem with hypertension or high cholesterol but not great for a normal
healthy person.

Avoiding excess salt is a good thing, trying to avoid all salt is a bad
thing, but you can't convince many people of that. If all necessary salt is
obtained from natural foods, why do animals, cattle, horses, etc. need salt
licks to maintain health? Why has salt always been a very valuable trading
commodity all through history? The body needs salt.

SS

That's nonsense, several pounds of salt. I know that if I eat things like a
lot of ham or salty bacon I will be up a couple of pounds the next day,
back down when I don't eat it. Your body maintains a certain balance of
salt/water, if you have more salt than you can rapidly excrete you will
retain water to dilute it.

Secret Squirrel wrote:
|
|
| This another pat answer that people give but don't think through. Salt
| absorbs water, yes, but it can't hold more than it's own weight in
| water so to put on a couple of pounds of water weight, purely as
| retained by extra salt, you would need to eat several extra POUNDS of
| salt. Not possible.
|
| I eat, at all times, an enormous amount of salt. I do not have high
| blood pressure and so have no need to minimize salt. I exercise a
| lot, and need to replace salt lost to sweat. It never makes any
| difference to my normal day to day weight, although if I am in a
| situation where I am forced to eat low salt meals - as has happened
| at some resort seminars etc. - I do experience a loss of energy and
| poor digestion until I can replace the salt. Low salt products are
| like low cholesterol products, great if you have a genuine problem
| with hypertension or high cholesterol but not great for a normal
| healthy person.
|
| Avoiding excess salt is a good thing, trying to avoid all salt is a
| bad thing, but you can't convince many people of that. If all
| necessary salt is obtained from natural foods, why do animals,
| cattle, horses, etc. need salt licks to maintain health? Why has salt
| always been a very valuable trading commodity all through history?
| The body needs salt.
|
| SS

Secret Squirrel wrote:
|| On 27/9/05 2:24 AM, in article
|| [email hidden], "FOB"
|| <[email hidden]> wrote:
||
||| If you are eating more stuff you are likely ingesting more salt as
||| well. That can make a big difference in water retention and has
||| nothing to do with glycogen.
|||
||| Secret Squirrel wrote:
||
|| This another pat answer that people give but don't think through.
|| Salt absorbs water, yes, but it can't hold more than it's own weight
|| in water so to put on a couple of pounds of water weight, purely as
|| retained by extra salt, you would need to eat several extra POUNDS
|| of salt. Not possible.
||

Are you for real? This is just plain stupid. Of course you don't have to
eat two pounds of salt to cause two pounds of water retention.
High concentrations of electrolytes (sodium and potassium) in our
bloodstream trigger our thirst mechanism to ensure that we consume adequate
amounts of water to maintain proper concentrations of electrolytes. This is
one of the reasons bars provide free salty snacks like pretzels and peanuts.
The salt causes us to become thirsty and purchase more drinks.

Where did you get the crazy idea that you have to eat two pounds of salt to
retain two pounds of water? Sodium triggers a metabolic mechanism, it's not
a sponge.

The water also moves beyond our bloodstream. Through the process of osmosis,
water flows from a lower salinity environment to a higher one in an attempt
to make the levels of salinity equal. After we consume large amounts of
salt, it's the water moving from our bloodstream into our skin that gives us
that "puffy" look and makes it hard to get our rings off. Then, when we
consume lesser amounts of salt, the same process works in reverse to remove
excess water from our bodies.

Look it up. You have Google.

--
Peter
Website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo

Marengo said:

Secret Squirrel wrote:
|| On 27/9/05 2:24 AM, in article
|| [email hidden], "FOB"
|| <[email hidden]> wrote:
||
||| If you are eating more stuff you are likely ingesting more salt as
||| well. That can make a big difference in water retention and has
||| nothing to do with glycogen.
|||
||| Secret Squirrel wrote:
||
|| This another pat answer that people give but don't think through.
|| Salt absorbs water, yes, but it can't hold more than it's own weight
|| in water so to put on a couple of pounds of water weight, purely as
|| retained by extra salt, you would need to eat several extra POUNDS
|| of salt. Not possible.
||

Are you for real? This is just plain stupid. Of course you don't have to
eat two pounds of salt to cause two pounds of water retention.
High concentrations of electrolytes (sodium and potassium) in our
bloodstream trigger our thirst mechanism to ensure that we consume adequate
amounts of water to maintain proper concentrations of electrolytes. This is
one of the reasons bars provide free salty snacks like pretzels and peanuts.
The salt causes us to become thirsty and purchase more drinks.

Are you for real or just plain stupid?

Anyone who is conscious of their health, fitness and diet will ALWAYS
hydrate properly. I know, as do most of my friends, EXACTLY how much I
liquid I consume. No amount of salt will cause me to drink more. If it does
for you then you are not hydrating properly.

I drink far more than more thirst requires, and anyone who really wants to
be fully healthy should do the same. I have a very well practised routine
with regard to food and drink, I drink only bottled water, the same number
of cups of tea and espresso every day and would know instantly if I was to
"become thirsty and purchase more drinks".

Quoted message said:

Where did you get the crazy idea that you have to eat two pounds of salt to
retain two pounds of water? Sodium triggers a metabolic mechanism, it's not
a sponge.

Because there is no way that an increase in water "retention" caused purely
by salt holds credibility. Is is just more "fat people" doubletalk to
explain their weight.

I agree that drinking or eating salty products increases thirst in someone
who is not fully hydrated, but that IS NOT SALT RETENTION!. The salt may
have increased thirst, the person may have responded to the increased
thirst, but the extra water is not magically held by the body in any way, it
goes the way of all water, excreted or passed in urine.

If I sit down and force myself to drink an EXTRA gallon of water today,
tomorrow I will weigh exactly the same. The water is NOT retained. Many
people who are trying to lose weight are amazed when convinced to
dramatically increase their water consumption in that they LOSE weight. They
gain for a day or so as the body stabilizes, then start to lose as their
diet and exercise program becomes efficient, often for the first time.

Quoted message said:

The water also moves beyond our bloodstream. Through the process of osmosis,
water flows from a lower salinity environment to a higher one in an attempt
to make the levels of salinity equal.

Even in this you are wrong, osmosis is the opposite, the molecules flow from
a high to a low concentration.

Quoted message said:

After we consume large amounts of
salt, it's the water moving from our bloodstream into our skin that gives us
that "puffy" look and makes it hard to get our rings off.

When we are fully hydrated our sweat glands are fully functioning. They are
then doing what they are supposed to at all times, regulate our body
temperature.

Quoted message said:

Then, when we
consume lesser amounts of salt, the same process works in reverse to remove
excess water from our bodies.

Rubbish.

Quoted message said:

Look it up. You have Google.

Google, the ultimate resource for misinformation.

I have both tertiary training plus personal and observed experience. No
amount of extra salt has ever put so much as an ounce of weight on me, nor
on people close to me.

If it puts weight on a person, that person was in a state of constant
dehydration, a very common occurrence.

SS

On 27/9/05 2:34 AM, in article [email hidden], "Roger

Zoul said:

Secret Squirrel <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> On 27/9/05 12:26 AM, in article [email hidden],
:> "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:>> Lass Chance_2 <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>> :>I suppose many of us have had this experience---you "fall off",
:>> :> eat something carby and the scale registers a two pound gain the
:>> :> next day....?
:>>
:>> Water weight, provided you didn't eat a ton of food as you fell
:>> off. Then it could be "food gain" as well.
:>>
:>> :>
:>> :> Mu question....
:>>
:>> Are you asking a question of Mu? Why, oh why, oh why? Be happy he
:>> isn't posting here lately.
:>>
:>> what IS that weight gain? I mean...clearly it's not a
:>> :> 'real" gain of two pounds of body fat.....but what IS it? water?
:>> :> or...what? and why?
:>>
:>> If you just ate some plain sugar, way less than that needed to gain
:>> weight or make you over eat calories, those carbs get converted to
:>> glucose and stored as glycogen in your muscles and liver. Along
:>> with them come water molecules, as they attach to glycogen. Hence,
:>> you gain what is called "water weight."
:>
:> This is often proposed as a reason for rapid i.e. overnight weight
:> gain but it doesn't stand up to close examination because it also
:> happens with people who are not in ketosis, not in fact on any form
:> of low carb diet.

I'm not sure if it is proposed as a reason fo rapid weight gain for
everyone, but it is definitely a reason for those on a LC diet who have
depleted glycogen stores - and it is very repeatable. Also, it is not
proposed as the only reason for rapid weight gain.

:>
:> I am not in ketosis, though I avoid pasta and potatoes, white bread
:> etc., but still eat plenty of carbs. I am not over weight but can
:> still find that after a few days of excess, for example after a
:> weekend away, I have gained two or three pounds.

AFter a few days of excess, you might have extra "stuff" in your intestines,
festering around 🙂

Festering around? Delightful image that brings to mind. No, that is not the
cause.

Quoted message said:

It goes away as
:> rapidly as it comes, but it isn't water weight as I am not in
:> ketosis, it isn't muscle glycogen stores, not in the normal sense as
:> I haven't exercised although I usually do, and it certainly isn't
:> fat as my excess does not even approach seven thousand or more
:> calories. It isn't related to menstrual cycles and although
:> indicated on several scales, - and so not a scale error - doesn't
:> seem to alter clothing sizes - nothing seems appreciably tighter.
:>
:> None of the "pat" answers seem to apply.

None that you considered, that is...

I would hardly be discussing something that I hadn't considered - would I?

Quoted message said:

:>
:> I have some theories, one is that on these occasions I am drinking
:> less tea and coffee (diuretics) and so retain more water,

Possible...extreme changes might have an effect...

and that
:> the rest from exercise allows the muscles to regenerate more than
:> normal and so bulks them a little more than normal.

I don't know what you mean by "regenerate more than normal". That sounds a
bit like hooyie to me...

What do I mean be "regenerate more than normal"?

I guess that what I mean is "regenerate more than normal." Yes, that's it.

Muscles do not grow or strengthen during exercise, that happens during the
"rest" periods between bouts of exercise. If they have a longer rest period
than normal, perhaps they regenerate more than normal. I don't exercise to
build muscle, I exercise to stay fit, and so don't normally have rest days.
I exercise every day, except for the times under discussion.

Quoted message said:

:> Sort of like
:> when you load with Creatine, the added muscle bulk is rapid and not
:> real growth. Also in my case, I tend to drink more alcohol,
:> dehydrating me and causing me to drink more liquids.
:>

With creatine, it is water weight if i recall correctly.

Not water weight in the sense that being proposed here, (dropping out of
ketosis) although yes, it is added water molecules.

Quoted message said:

:> A lot more needs to learned about human metabolism, we aren't
:> remotely close to knowing it all yet. It isn't as simple as 3500
:> calories = one extra pound of fat.

It's that simple under the appropriate conditions...but trying to apply that
logic to every change on the scale is not appropriate.

Like BMI, it merely a yardstick, not a valid formula. There are many
exceptions. In my gym people often go to elaborate lengths to work out just
how efficient their metabolism is, many very fit people who are as much a
gym junkie as I am have widely differing responses to the same amounts and
types of food.

If 3500 calories always equalled a pound in weight, I would probably weight
about two hundred pounds more than I do. I eat more food than many guys,
even when they are athletes. I have a VERY efficient metabolism. If I use
the 3500 in the conventional manner to calculate my daily needs it comes out
at far less than I actually eat. More than a thousand calories per day
less. I still don't vary by more than a two or three pounds, year in, year
out always between 105 and 108. If however, I cut back on fat and eat more
carbs from bread pasta and potatoes, within just a few weeks I can go to 120
even if I don't increase the overall calorie intake. In order to lose that
weight again just cutting the carbs back to the previous level isn't enough,
I have to cut overall calories. My 'ideal' carb level is about 125-160. If I
go over 190-200 I start to gain weight regardless of calories.

Like I said, it isn't that simple. I have been keeping detailed records for
quite a few years, on myself and on a number of other gym members. We all
vary in our responses to the same food values. There are differences in what
allows weight loss and weight gain and in weight maintenance. Some people
find that alcohol has a major effect on weight maintenance, with others they
are just calories like any other. Some gym members eat very high carb and
still keep a good body fat ratio. It certainly isn't 'one size fits all'
when it comes to ideal diets.

SS

SS

Lass Chance_2 said:

I suppose many of us have had this experience---you "fall off", eat
something carby and the scale registers a two pound gain the next
day....?

what IS that weight gain? I mean...clearly it's not a
'real" gain of two pounds of body fat.....but what IS it? water?
or...what? and why?

Answer 1:
The body stores carbs as glycogen, and glycogen dissolves
in water. It is the stored carbs and the water it is
dissolved in.

Answer 2:
Only two pounds of swing? My random swing is 6 pounds, so
that doesn't count *at all* as gain. It is far under the
amount to qualify as "having a cause". Never look at a
random event and then drive yourself to finding a cause.
First figure out if it is within the range of random
swing. Inside the range of random swing no cause at all
is needed so no amount of effort at creating a cause is
going to do anything but confuse you.

Secret Squirrel said:

Quoted message said:

what IS that weight gain? I mean...clearly it's not a
:> 'real" gain of two pounds of body fat.....but what IS it? water?
:> or...what? and why?

Quoted message said:

If you just ate some plain sugar, way less than that needed to gain weight
or make you over eat calories, those carbs get converted to glucose and
stored as glycogen in your muscles and liver. Along with them come water
molecules, as they attach to glycogen. Hence, you gain what is called "water
weight."

This is often proposed as a reason for rapid i.e. overnight weight gain but
it doesn't stand up to close examination because it also happens with people
who are not in ketosis, not in fact on any form of low carb diet.

This part is true enough. Random water retention swing
happens. With or without obvious cause. If the amount of
the swing is within the random range, no amount of effort
at creating a cause out of thin air will actually result
in a true cause. Castles in the air are low carb, so there
is a consolation prize.

Quoted message said:

but it isn't water
weight as I am not in ketosis, it isn't muscle glycogen stores, not in the
normal sense as I haven't exercised although I usually do

This part misses. If you are not in ketosis your body
is more subject to storing carbs in the form of glycogen,
complete with the water it takes to dissolve that glycogen.
Being in ketosis makes it harder for glycogen storage -
the body will normally drop out of ketosis before starting
to store dissolved glycogen whereever it stores it.

Secret Squirrel said:

This another pat answer that people give but don't think through. Salt
absorbs water, yes, but it can't hold more than it's own weight in water so
to put on a couple of pounds of water weight, purely as retained by extra
salt, you would need to eat several extra POUNDS of salt. Not possible.

Sea water does NOT have 50% of its weight or volume in salt.
It is under 10% mineral content. So the above it false.

Quoted message said:

I eat, at all times, an enormous amount of salt. I do not have high blood
pressure and so have no need to minimize salt.

Humans are evolved to eject large amounts of salt.

Quoted message said:

I exercise a lot, and need to
replace salt lost to sweat. It never makes any difference to my normal day
to day weight, although if I am in a situation where I am forced to eat low
salt meals - as has happened at some resort seminars etc. - I do experience
a loss of energy and poor digestion until I can replace the salt. Low salt
products are like low cholesterol products, great if you have a genuine
problem with hypertension or high cholesterol but not great for a normal
healthy person.

The body has a fairly effective mechanism for keeping its
salt percentage steady, but that is not the same thing as
keeping its salt amount steady. Hence water retention
from eating more salt than you excrete. For the short
time until it is excreted.

Quoted message said:

Avoiding excess salt is a good thing, trying to avoid all salt is a bad
thing, but you can't convince many people of that.

Salt is not fat. Water dissolving the salt is not fat.
But both register with gravity and thus effect the scale.
Folks who haven't taken the time to think through the
above often want to fight every ounce of *scale reading*
without regard to whether it reflects *fat loss*.

Quoted message said:

If all necessary salt is
obtained from natural foods, why do animals, cattle, horses, etc. need salt
licks to maintain health? Why has salt always been a very valuable trading
commodity all through history? The body needs salt.

SS

Secret Squirrel <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> On 27/9/05 2:34 AM, in article [email hidden],
:> "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:>> Secret Squirrel <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>> :> On 27/9/05 12:26 AM, in article
:>> :> [email hidden], "Roger Zoul"
:>> :> <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>> :>
:>> :>> Lass Chance_2 <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>> :>> :>I suppose many of us have had this experience---you "fall
:>> :>> :>off",
:>> :>> :> eat something carby and the scale registers a two pound gain
:>> :>> :> the next day....?
:>> :>>
:>> :>> Water weight, provided you didn't eat a ton of food as you fell
:>> :>> off. Then it could be "food gain" as well.
:>> :>>
:>> :>> :>
:>> :>> :> Mu question....
:>> :>>
:>> :>> Are you asking a question of Mu? Why, oh why, oh why? Be
:>> :>> happy he isn't posting here lately.
:>> :>>
:>> :>> what IS that weight gain? I mean...clearly it's not a
:>> :>> :> 'real" gain of two pounds of body fat.....but what IS it?
:>> :>> :> water? or...what? and why?
:>> :>>
:>> :>> If you just ate some plain sugar, way less than that needed to
:>> :>> gain weight or make you over eat calories, those carbs get
:>> :>> converted to glucose and stored as glycogen in your muscles and
:>> :>> liver. Along
:>> :>> with them come water molecules, as they attach to glycogen.
:>> :>> Hence,
:>> :>> you gain what is called "water weight."
:>> :>
:>> :> This is often proposed as a reason for rapid i.e. overnight
:>> :> weight
:>> :> gain but it doesn't stand up to close examination because it also
:>> :> happens with people who are not in ketosis, not in fact on any
:>> :> form
:>> :> of low carb diet.
:>>
:>> I'm not sure if it is proposed as a reason fo rapid weight gain for
:>> everyone, but it is definitely a reason for those on a LC diet who
:>> have depleted glycogen stores - and it is very repeatable. Also, it
:>> is not proposed as the only reason for rapid weight gain.
:>>
:>> :>
:>> :> I am not in ketosis, though I avoid pasta and potatoes, white
:>> :> bread etc., but still eat plenty of carbs. I am not over weight
:>> :> but can
:>> :> still find that after a few days of excess, for example after a
:>> :> weekend away, I have gained two or three pounds.
:>>
:>> AFter a few days of excess, you might have extra "stuff" in your
:>> intestines, festering around 🙂
:>
:> Festering around? Delightful image that brings to mind. No, that is
:> not the cause.

And what makes you so sure? You did say "a few days of excess", right?
Yet, you dismiss this out of hand with no discussion?

:>
:>>
:>> It goes away as
:>> :> rapidly as it comes, but it isn't water weight as I am not in
:>> :> ketosis, it isn't muscle glycogen stores, not in the normal
:>> :> sense as
:>> :> I haven't exercised although I usually do, and it certainly isn't
:>> :> fat as my excess does not even approach seven thousand or more
:>> :> calories. It isn't related to menstrual cycles and although
:>> :> indicated on several scales, - and so not a scale error - doesn't
:>> :> seem to alter clothing sizes - nothing seems appreciably tighter.
:>> :>
:>> :> None of the "pat" answers seem to apply.
:>>
:>> None that you considered, that is...
:>
:> I would hardly be discussing something that I hadn't considered -
:> would I?

Of course you might....are we supposed to assume you are a fount of wisdom
or something? Knower or all things, perhaps? 🙂

:>
:>>
:>> :>
:>> :> I have some theories, one is that on these occasions I am
:>> :> drinking
:>> :> less tea and coffee (diuretics) and so retain more water,
:>>
:>> Possible...extreme changes might have an effect...
:>>
:>> and that
:>> :> the rest from exercise allows the muscles to regenerate more than
:>> :> normal and so bulks them a little more than normal.
:>>
:>> I don't know what you mean by "regenerate more than normal". That
:>> sounds a bit like hooyie to me...
:>
:> What do I mean be "regenerate more than normal"?
:>
:> I guess that what I mean is "regenerate more than normal." Yes,
:> that's it.

🙂

:>
:> Muscles do not grow or strengthen during exercise, that happens
:> during the "rest" periods between bouts of exercise. If they have a
:> longer rest period than normal, perhaps they regenerate more than
:> normal. I don't exercise to build muscle, I exercise to stay fit,
:> and so don't normally have rest days. I exercise every day, except
:> for the times under discussion.

Well, I can assure you that growing muscles won't increase weight by a
couple of pounds over night....folks would be so happy for such results.
No, it's definitely not due to extra regeneration. And there is nothing
wrong with a regular rest day...they won't hurt your fitness...

:>
:>>
:>> :> Sort of like
:>> :> when you load with Creatine, the added muscle bulk is rapid and
:>> :> not
:>> :> real growth. Also in my case, I tend to drink more alcohol,
:>> :> dehydrating me and causing me to drink more liquids.
:>> :>
:>>
:>> With creatine, it is water weight if i recall correctly.
:>
:> Not water weight in the sense that being proposed here, (dropping
:> out of ketosis) although yes, it is added water molecules.

Water weight is water weight....the sense is always the same...the reasons
for it might differ.

:>
:>>
:>> :> A lot more needs to learned about human metabolism, we aren't
:>> :> remotely close to knowing it all yet. It isn't as simple as 3500
:>> :> calories = one extra pound of fat.
:>>
:>> It's that simple under the appropriate conditions...but trying to
:>> apply that logic to every change on the scale is not appropriate.
:>
:> Like BMI, it merely a yardstick, not a valid formula. There are many
:> exceptions. In my gym people often go to elaborate lengths to work
:> out just how efficient their metabolism is, many very fit people who
:> are as much a gym junkie as I am have widely differing responses to
:> the same amounts and types of food.

I can accept this....however, I do have issues about gym junkies really
understanding all the reasons for these widely differing responses...there
is a lot of mis-info being passed around in gyms....certainly in mine....

:>
:> If 3500 calories always equalled a pound in weight, I would probably
:> weight about two hundred pounds more than I do. I eat more food than
:> many guys, even when they are athletes. I have a VERY efficient
:> metabolism.

What does "efficient metabolism" mean, exactly? Some use that term to imply
that whatever they eat turns to fat, as the food is quickly metabolized.

:> If I use the 3500 in the conventional manner to
:> calculate my daily needs it comes out at far less than I actually
:> eat. More than a thousand calories per day less. I still don't vary
:> by more than a two or three pounds, year in, year out always between
:> 105 and 108. If however, I cut back on fat and eat more carbs from
:> bread pasta and potatoes, within just a few weeks I can go to 120
:> even if I don't increase the overall calorie intake. In order to
:> lose that weight again just cutting the carbs back to the previous
:> level isn't enough, I have to cut overall calories. My 'ideal' carb
:> level is about 125-160. If I go over 190-200 I start to gain weight
:> regardless of calories.

125 to 160 could be a typical maintenance carb level for a very active
person on Atkins. Increase beyond that could result in greater glycogen
stores in the liver and muscle, and could eventually lead to fat gain if one
consumes too many calories.

:>
:> Like I said, it isn't that simple. I have been keeping detailed
:> records for quite a few years, on myself and on a number of other
:> gym members.

That would be very interesting to see, those records. Why not scan them and
post them on the web somewhere? It would make for some interesting
discussions, if they are detailed enough. Also, it would allow us to see
just how good your personal observations are. Because, as you know, you
have to account for exercise and other daily activiy in the energy balance.
Depending on where you got your data, your statements about calories in/out
could be way, way off.

We all vary in our responses to the same food values.
:> There are differences in what allows weight loss and weight gain and
:> in weight maintenance. Some people find that alcohol has a major
:> effect on weight maintenance, with others they are just calories
:> like any other. Some gym members eat very high carb and still keep a
:> good body fat ratio. It certainly isn't 'one size fits all' when it
:> comes to ideal diets.

Most who gain from high carbs do so because they have issues with carbs -
like wanting to eat too many of them. Others don't have those issues. So
yeah, we all vary in our responses to food.

Doug Freyburger <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> Lass Chance_2 wrote:
:>>
:>> I suppose many of us have had this experience---you "fall off", eat
:>> something carby and the scale registers a two pound gain the next
:>> day....?
:>>
:>> what IS that weight gain? I mean...clearly it's not a
:>> 'real" gain of two pounds of body fat.....but what IS it? water?
:>> or...what? and why?
:>
:> Answer 1:
:> The body stores carbs as glycogen, and glycogen dissolves
:> in water. It is the stored carbs and the water it is
:> dissolved in.
:>
:> Answer 2:
:> Only two pounds of swing? My random swing is 6 pounds, so
:> that doesn't count *at all* as gain. It is far under the
:> amount to qualify as "having a cause". Never look at a
:> random event and then drive yourself to finding a cause.

I disagree with you here, Doug. It's not a random event because she went
off plan. The 2 lbs may be because she didn't deviate much or perhaps she
simply didn't eat a lot but had some carbs. I've had weight swings from a
pound or two to 15 lbs as a result of carbing.

Also, if one is steady in diet an actively engaged in weight loss, then
upwards jumps are generally less likely (however, flatlining is likely).
Under those conditions extra carbs can quickly drive weight up and the
degree is dictated by the amount of carbs consumed.

:> First figure out if it is within the range of random
:> swing. Inside the range of random swing no cause at all
:> is needed so no amount of effort at creating a cause is
:> going to do anything but confuse you.

It's always a good idea for a LCer to know what to expect as a result of
going off plan. None will ever be able to pinpoint the exact cause in all
cases, but knowing the possibilities gives one power.

: > |
: > | None of the "pat" answers seem to apply.
: > |
: > | SS
: >
:
:
: This another pat answer that people give but don't think through. Salt
: absorbs water, yes, but it can't hold more than it's own weight in water
so
: to put on a couple of pounds of water weight, purely as retained by extra
: salt, you would need to eat several extra POUNDS of salt. Not possible.
: SS

Neither one of those was one of my answers.

Pat in TX
:

:
: Anyone who is conscious of their health, fitness and diet will ALWAYS
: hydrate properly. I know, as do most of my friends, EXACTLY how much I
: liquid I consume. No amount of salt will cause me to drink more. If it
does
: for you then you are not hydrating properly.

Your train just went off track. Try eating a pizza and then see if you don't
get much thirstier.
He was right about the salt.

:
: I drink far more than more thirst requires, and anyone who really wants to
: be fully healthy should do the same. I have a very well practised routine
: with regard to food and drink, I drink only bottled water, the same number
: of cups of tea and espresso every day and would know instantly if I was to
: "become thirsty and purchase more drinks".

You might tell that to the people who have gotten themselves into a
condition called
hyponatremia....

: > Where did you get the crazy idea that you have to eat two pounds of salt
to
: > retain two pounds of water? Sodium triggers a metabolic mechanism, it's
not
: > a sponge.
:
: Because there is no way that an increase in water "retention" caused
purely
: by salt holds credibility. Is is just more "fat people" doubletalk to
: explain their weight.

http://www.caloriesperhour.com/faqs_salt.html

http://home.epix.net/~tcannon1/Physioweek5.htm

http://www.dushkin.com/connectext/psy/ch09/thirst.mhtml

Cells in the lateral preoptic area of the hypothalamus called
osmoreceptors are sensitive not only to the relative amount of water in the
blood, but, more particularly, to cellular dehydration due to the amount of
salt that becomes concentrated as the body dehydrates from loss of water
(Peck & Novin, 1971). An increase in the amount of salt in the blood will
thus cause the anterior hypothalamus to signal the pituitary gland to
secrete antidiuretic hormone (ADH), which causes the kidneys to slow down
their production of urine. This restores body fluid. At the same time, the
hypothalamus signals the brain's cortex to create a thirst drive to force
the increased water intake needed to restore the normal salt level (Epstein,
1982).

Really! This was TOO easy. You should learn to look up the problem before
you make some definitive statement that "there is no way that an increase in
water retention is caused purely by salt". These scientists seem to think
that it does! Imagine that!

:
: I agree that drinking or eating salty products increases thirst in someone
: who is not fully hydrated, but that IS NOT SALT RETENTION!. The salt may
: have increased thirst, the person may have responded to the increased
: thirst, but the extra water is not magically held by the body in any way,
it
: goes the way of all water, excreted or passed in urine.

See above cites. Tsk Tsk.

:
: I have both tertiary training plus personal and observed experience. No
: amount of extra salt has ever put so much as an ounce of weight on me, nor
: on people close to me.
:
: If it puts weight on a person, that person was in a state of constant
: dehydration, a very common occurrence.
:
: SS

Geez, too bad about that bad training you claim to have received. It surely
didn't "take".

And that's the pat answer.

Pat in TX

The ham and bacon are most likely sugar cured.

--
Most people are dumb as bricks; some people are dumber than that. -- MFW

"FOB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's nonsense, several pounds of salt. I know that if I eat things like
a
lot of ham or salty bacon I will be up a couple of pounds the next day,
back down when I don't eat it. Your body maintains a certain balance of
salt/water, if you have more salt than you can rapidly excrete you will
retain water to dilute it.

Secret Squirrel wrote:
|
|
| This another pat answer that people give but don't think through. Salt
| absorbs water, yes, but it can't hold more than it's own weight in
| water so to put on a couple of pounds of water weight, purely as
| retained by extra salt, you would need to eat several extra POUNDS of
| salt. Not possible.
|
| I eat, at all times, an enormous amount of salt. I do not have high
| blood pressure and so have no need to minimize salt. I exercise a
| lot, and need to replace salt lost to sweat. It never makes any
| difference to my normal day to day weight, although if I am in a
| situation where I am forced to eat low salt meals - as has happened
| at some resort seminars etc. - I do experience a loss of energy and
| poor digestion until I can replace the salt. Low salt products are
| like low cholesterol products, great if you have a genuine problem
| with hypertension or high cholesterol but not great for a normal
| healthy person.
|
| Avoiding excess salt is a good thing, trying to avoid all salt is a
| bad thing, but you can't convince many people of that. If all
| necessary salt is obtained from natural foods, why do animals,
| cattle, horses, etc. need salt licks to maintain health? Why has salt
| always been a very valuable trading commodity all through history?
| The body needs salt.
|
| SS

Chimichangas are not low carb, webtv idiot.

--
Most people are dumb as bricks; some people are dumber than that. -- MFW

"Lass Chance_2" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I suppose many of us have had this experience---you "fall off", eat
something carby and the scale registers a two pound gain the next
day....?

Mu question....what IS that weight gain? I mean...clearly it's not a
'real" gain of two pounds of body fat.....but what IS it? water?
or...what? and why?

Just curious--

---in the aftermath of eating a chimichanga day before yesterday.

LassChance