Knackered Knee

Michael Hobby bashed at the keyboard and said:

Does anyone know if I'm likely to be afflicted with this permanently? Is
it worth taking professional advice(doctor etc)? Will it get worse? Can
the long term use of a support have any detrimental effect?

Any advice appreciated.

Wearing any sort of support long term will see the joint weaken as it gets
used to having the extra support. Supports sould only be used in the short
term, and it is well worth speaking to your Doctor about it. Knee Pain is
common on descents, but any sharp pain you need to speak to your doctor
about.
--
Mike.

Ysgrifennodd "Michael Hobby" <[email hidden]> mewn
neges newyddion:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been a keen hill walker/mountaineer for most of my life(I am just
coming up to 60)

I've never had much in the way of problems health wise apart from the odd
sprained ankle/knee but I now find that when I am doing a longish descent
I invariably get a sharp pain on the outer side of my right knee. This
seem now to happen regularly and I have taken to wearing a support(I think
it's a sort of neoprene bandage) which does alleviate the problem(I
recently did two weeks in the Pyrenees thus attired)

Does anyone know if I'm likely to be afflicted with this permanently? Is
it worth taking professional advice(doctor etc)? Will it get worse? Can
the long term use of a support have any detrimental effect?

Any advice appreciated.

Hi,
Probably not the same circumstances (i'm 30ish), but i suffered similar pain
on the outside of my left knee on descent.

It's now better as i have improved my hill-fitness and wear a better knee
support. (but from what you suggest, you have the hill fitness already).

I found that other than the knee support, a pair of poles make the world of
difference, though i am certainly not going into the poles debate. ;-) In my
circumstances, with knee pain on descent, i found they work (though i feel
clumsy, and my arms get tired quicker than my legs).

A decent pair of footbeds also helped, and the pain has reduced, now i think
about it, after i got some spanking new boots. I find that the better ankle
support keeps my knee from twisting, which is the apparent cause of the
injury (i'm sure someone will explain pronation and supination or whatever
the terms are, i forget).
HTH

T Dave R.

--
Walking About Snowdonia and Llyn
www.walkeryri.org.uk

I also have knee pain whether walking, running or standing for long
periods. It is caused by muscle wastage in the inner quad, basically
the thigh muscle is doing all the work and causing the knee cap to move
incorrectly which creates pain. I have seen improvement after seeking
advice and getting specific excersies to due, I have also seen a
podiatrist and had some custom made orthotics made (fabulous, even
relieved back pain). The use of poles helps on descents too.

Therefore I would strongly recommend that you see your GP and try and
get a referral to see a physio, or see a sports physio directly.
(Depending on your location I can recommend a podiatrist.)

Hope this is of help.
Amanda

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:27:27 +0100, "Michael Hobby"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

| I have been a keen hill walker/mountaineer for most of my life(I am just
| coming up to 60)

Consider yourself lucky, I did my knees in about 30 years ago,
ibuprophen at well under the maximum dose keeps them working

| Does anyone know if I'm likely to be afflicted with this permanently? Is it
| worth taking professional advice(doctor etc)?

Definitely

--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk>
The London suicide bombers killed innocent commuters.
Animal rights terrorists and activists kill innocent patients.

Michael Hobby said:

I have been a keen hill walker/mountaineer for most of my life(I am
just coming up to 60)

............... but I now find that when I am doing a longish
descent I invariably get a sharp pain on the outer side of my right
knee. ...........

Does anyone know if I'm likely to be afflicted with this permanently?
Is it worth taking professional advice(doctor etc)? Will it get
worse? Can the long term use of a support have any detrimental effect?

See a sports medicine physiotherapist. Not a physio whose job is to get the
house-bound very elderly to potter to the front door.

Its probably controllable.

I guess the potential treatments include:
- specific strengthening exercises,
- use of poles (if used properly to actually support and reduce shock, which
does take some practise)
- footbeds to stabilise the foot, and bring the hip-knee-ankle-foot
relationship into line (for the average person, this tends to go out of line
a bit as you get older, and some of us are just born with the arrangement a
bit wonky)
- change of stride pattern, a shorter stride might help
- use of Ibuprofen, both as an emergency hill pain releaver, and after walks
to reduce any post-walk swelling (its a good general anti-inflamitory drug).

But, don't take your diagnosis from unqualified posters on the internet (eg.
me!), see someone who can look at you, work out what is wrong, and suggest
ways forwards.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

At your age you really do need to see a doctor to rule out any ting
unpleasant like osteoarthritis (wear & tear on the boney surface)

Lateral knee pain can often be caused by over tight hip abductors. Do some
stretches for "Iliotibial Band, also work on your "Tensor Fasciae Latae"
some good stretching exercises here
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/HipAbductors/WallIbiotibial.html

Also, a lot of knee problems on descent can be overcome by simply coming
down slower, take ten minutes rest after each 1000', make your descents in
the same time scale as your ascents

I'm another sufferer of 'knackered knee syndrome' (KKS) I suffer on
longer walks (+10miles) on the steep descents. Going up hills I
normally storm past my brother but by the time we get to the other side
he's normally overtaken me and sat waiting at the bottom whilst I'm
inching my way down.

I went to the doctor some years ago and was met with the view of
there's not a lot which can be done and if it only hurts when you
walk don't steep hills, don't walk down steep hills. Not ideal
advice for someone who loves walking. Maybe it's time to go and get a
second opinion.

However as a previous poster has said I've found that Ibuprofen seams
to help me along, especially the Ibuprofen gell.

James
http://www.wheresthepath.com

Michael Hobby said:

I've never had much in the way of problems health wise apart from the odd
sprained ankle/knee but I now find that when I am doing a longish descent I
invariably get a sharp pain on the outer side of my right knee. This seem
now to happen regularly and I have taken to wearing a support(I think it's a
sort of neoprene bandage) which does alleviate the problem(I recently did
two weeks in the Pyrenees thus attired)

Supports can help a lot but if you're always wearing one then they tend
to work against your own body doing support work, which can weaken
things a bit. Also they get a bit sweaty and start to chafe on longer days.

It's very good to use natural support, which you get from your own
muscles. If you build up the muscles around the knee then they can take
a lot of the work away from the joint itself. To build up the muscles
use low impact exercise. I find cycling spinning low gears has been
/very/ good for my knees, and they're much better than they were a dozen
years ago.

Also consider external supports in the form of poles, where your arms
are doing some of the work.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone know if I'm likely to be afflicted with this permanently? Is it
worth taking professional advice(doctor etc)?

As others have said, sports injury specialist rather than a GP.

Quoted message said:

Will it get worse?

Not necessarily. With the right build up of support muscles things can
get much /better/, as they have for me. Was finishing off a walk at
Arrochar yesterday, taking a few folk for the University Rucksack Club
on a trip. Coming down a steep path at the end someone about 18 was
rubbing his knees, mine were fine at over twice the age mileage, and
most of that is because I've got very strong quads to help my knees out
and I make a point of descending with bent knees to keep pressure off
the actual joint (wasn't using my poles yesterday, decided a brolly was
a more useful thing to be holding...).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Michael Hobby said:

I've never had much in the way of problems health wise apart from the odd
sprained ankle/knee but I now find that when I am doing a longish descent I
invariably get a sharp pain on the outer side of my right knee. This seem
now to happen regularly and I have taken to wearing a support(I think it's a
sort of neoprene bandage) which does alleviate the problem(I recently did
two weeks in the Pyrenees thus attired)

Supports can help a lot but if you're always wearing one then they tend
to work against your own body doing support work, which can weaken
things a bit. Also they get a bit sweaty and start to chafe on longer days.

It's very good to use natural support, which you get from your own
muscles. If you build up the muscles around the knee then they can take
a lot of the work away from the joint itself. To build up the muscles
use low impact exercise. I find cycling spinning low gears has been
/very/ good for my knees, and they're much better than they were a dozen
years ago.

Also consider external supports in the form of poles, where your arms
are doing some of the work.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone know if I'm likely to be afflicted with this permanently? Is it
worth taking professional advice(doctor etc)?

As others have said, sports injury specialist rather than a GP.

Quoted message said:

Will it get worse?

Not necessarily. With the right build up of support muscles things can
get much /better/, as they have for me. Was finishing off a walk at
Arrochar yesterday, taking a few folk for the University Rucksack Club
on a trip. Coming down a steep path at the end someone about 18 was
rubbing his knees, mine were fine at over twice the age mileage, and
most of that is because I've got very strong quads to help my knees out
and I make a point of descending with bent knees to keep pressure off
the actual joint (wasn't using my poles yesterday, decided a brolly was
a more useful thing to be holding...).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

i had the same problem and it was because i was bow legged i saw a
podiatrist got fitted with insoles and it solved the problem
"Michael Hobby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been a keen hill walker/mountaineer for most of my life(I am just
coming up to 60)

I've never had much in the way of problems health wise apart from the odd
sprained ankle/knee but I now find that when I am doing a longish descent
I invariably get a sharp pain on the outer side of my right knee. This
seem now to happen regularly and I have taken to wearing a support(I think
it's a sort of neoprene bandage) which does alleviate the problem(I
recently did two weeks in the Pyrenees thus attired)

Does anyone know if I'm likely to be afflicted with this permanently? Is
it worth taking professional advice(doctor etc)? Will it get worse? Can
the long term use of a support have any detrimental effect?

Any advice appreciated.

Jim, the difference is that your knee injuries were originally alcohol
induced...!

Michael - only one thing to add to the other contributions here - if
it's a joint problem then cod liver oil and/or glucosamine sulphate may
help. Like everyone says though, see a specialist!

Anth

PS. Please link to www.wheresthepath.com

Anth <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Jim, the difference is that your knee injuries were originally alcohol
induced...!

Michael - only one thing to add to the other contributions here - if
it's a joint problem then cod liver oil and/or glucosamine sulphate may
help. Like everyone says though, see a specialist!

I thought I would try glucosamine sulphate after a recommendation by He
Who No Longer Posts Here to avoid knee joint problems, (I don't have any
currently). However, when I went to buy some from a health food
stall at a local market hall the stall holder asked if I was taking any
medication.
I mentioned BP tablets, and she told me not to take G.S. and offered
some alternative tablets. I bought them because I appreciated her
responsible attitude, but discovered that they were simply herbal
lozenges which merely made a half-hearted claim that they might possibly
help with joint complaints.
I threw them away.
--
Gordon Harris

Michael Hobby said:

I have been a keen hill walker/mountaineer for most of my life(I am just
coming up to 60)

I've never had much in the way of problems health wise apart from the odd
sprained ankle/knee but I now find that when I am doing a longish descent I
invariably get a sharp pain on the outer side of my right knee. This seem
now to happen regularly and I have taken to wearing a support(I think it's a
sort of neoprene bandage) which does alleviate the problem(I recently did
two weeks in the Pyrenees thus attired)

Does anyone know if I'm likely to be afflicted with this permanently? Is it
worth taking professional advice(doctor etc)? Will it get worse? Can the
long term use of a support have any detrimental effect?

Any advice appreciated.

I have little to add to what has already been offered, but as you say you
have been a keen walker for some time, it sounds as if you may have a
problem that is not likely to go away. Indeed it may get worse. My
commiserations.

However...
I took up hill-walking again nearly 10 years ago, in my mid-30s. I used to
get fairly tired and sore knees at the end of a day's walk too. Last spring
I contrived to injure something when I slipped and fell awkwardly (one leg
out, one underneath me). It was painless at the time, but became much worse
over the next week or so, and persisted for many weeks thereafter. Like
you, it was a sharp pain on the outside of the knee. Much internet
"research" revealed this is quite a rare symptom with most sports injuries
occurring on the inside or the kneecap itself. For me, it got to the point
where a half-mile walk to the shops resulted in much discomfort. I got to
the stage of consulting a sports physio, but as it was Easter they were off
on holiday. I was advised to try ibuprofen, and found this to be highly
effective, both in killing the pain and also noticeably reducing the
discomfort too. Clearly there was inflammation inside. Not much more than
a week later, the knee was back to normal. I suspect I should have started
the ibuprofen immediately. I tried both rest and gentle exercise before
medicating, to no great effect. Since then, I have upped my walking
exercise (although still largely sedentary), and have no more sore knees. I
hope to keep up the same level of walking to ward off future problems, being
fairly sure that strong muscles help to significantly reduce the strain on
the joints. Once they go, however, you may need to either ease back, or use
poles.

Passed two old dears on Cader Idris in August who must've been 75 if they
were a day, so there really is no absolute time limit while the heart and
lungs are still working !

--
If we do not succeed, then we face the risk of failure. - Dan Quayle