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Religion VS Science

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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21 September 2005
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21 October 2005
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Axel of the North!
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  1. Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...

    After seeing the Daily Show's weeklong "Evolution Schmevolution" and
    the apparent endemic descent of common sense in these modern times i
    thought it would be nice for the denizens of MFW to read a book
    review. it isn't the same as an interview with the author on a
    kick-ass fake news show, but it'll do for now.

    Reviewed: The Evolution-Creation Struggle by Michael Ruse
    30 July 2005, New Scientist

    Karen Armstrong reviewing Michael Ruse's "The Evolution-Creation
    Struggle", Harvard University Press, 2005

    THE clash between those who adhere to the scientific theory of
    evolution and those who believe that the biblical story of the six-day
    creation is literally true is a struggle between two religions. So
    concludes Michael Ruse in his accessible, skilfully written book.
    Since the Enlightenment, he says, scientists have offered up an
    alternative vision of the nature of reality, and those among them who
    are most opposed to religion can proselytise with as much zeal as an
    evangelical Christian.

    For Richard Dawkins, contemplation of the natural world through the
    eyes of science is a religious experience, providing the same
    "spine-shivering, breath-catching awe - almost worship" as cultivated
    by the great religions.

    Yet Dawkins regards faith as one of the world's great evils,
    "comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate". He defines
    faith as "belief that isn't based on evidence", whereas science is
    based upon verifiable facts. Even those who would not go as far in
    their condemnation of religion would probably agree that modern
    science has undermined the conventional notion of God. There is a
    widespread, popular conviction that science and religion are
    diametrically opposed, and that science has rendered most religious
    truth frankly incredible.

    But this conviction is based on an erroneous assumption: that faith is
    synonymous with belief, and that to be religious, people must accept
    certain credal propositions. This is a relatively recent development,
    one that has arisen since the Enlightenment, and then only in the
    west. Originally the Middle English word beleven meant "to love". The
    Latin credo probably derives from co do: "I give my heart". Faith was
    therefore not belief but commitment. Even Martin Luther, who taught
    that human beings were justified by faith, did not define faith by
    belief; he had in fact very little time for dogma and creeds. Faith
    was a heroic cultivation of trust in the idea that, against all the
    evidence to the contrary, life had some ultimate, though ineffable,
    meaning and value.

    Religion is not about thinking, but doing things that change you at a
    profound level”Most of the great religions have had no interest in
    metaphysical doctrines. Religion is not about thinking things but
    about doing things that change you at a profound level. At best,
    theology is regarded as a kind of poetry about matters that must, by
    their very nature, elude definition. The Koran calls theological
    speculation zanna, self-indulgent guesswork about matters that nobody
    can prove one way or the other. Every single verse, every story told
    in the Koran is called an aya, a parable, because it is only possible
    to talk about the indescribable God in terms of signs and symbols.
    Hence, Darwin and his evolutionary theory has raised scarcely a ripple
    of concern in the Muslim world.

    But the biblical creation myths were never intended as definitive
    dogma either. The first chapter of Genesis, which was almost certainly
    written by a priestly author (often referred to as "P"😉 who had been
    deported to Babylonia after the destruction of Jerusalem by King
    Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BC, became the most famous creation account, but
    it was not the only one. The biblical editors placed it right next to
    another story that contradicts P's in several important respects.

    Unlike P's creation story, most Middle Eastern cosmologies were
    extremely violent. The Babylonian god Marduk, for example, slew the
    divine sea monster Tiamat after a bloody battle and split her carcass
    in two, like a giant shellfish, to create heaven and earth. Such
    stories expressed the tragic - not to say Darwinian - insight that
    life, creativity and survival depended upon the destruction of others.
    Genesis chapter 1 was revolutionary in omitting all the violence. It
    imagines Yahweh - the God of the Bible - summoning all things into
    being with a mere word of command. P was telling the exiled Jews that
    their God was far more powerful than Marduk. His calm creation was a
    healing vision of order, designed to console the traumatised
    deportees.

    Cosmologies were originally therapeutic in function. In the ancient
    world, a creation story was often chanted at the start of a new
    enterprise or at a moment of crisis. These stories were thus more than
    history. Nobody, not even the gods, knew what had happened at the
    beginning of time. "Who then knows whence this creation has arisen?"
    asks the inspired poet of the Hindu Rig Veda. "Only he who is its
    overseer in highest heaven knows - or perhaps he does not know!"

    Until the advent of the modern period, nobody would have regarded the
    six-day creation story as a literal, historical account. In the 16th
    century, for example, after the Jews had been expelled from Spain, the
    Kabbalist Isaac Luria evolved an entirely new creation myth that had
    nothing in common with P's story, but was full of explosions and false
    starts. Far from being reviled for contradicting scripture, Lurianic
    Kabbalah became a mass movement, for it expressed the pain and
    bewilderment of being Jewish at that time and showed scattered,
    persecuted people how they could rebuild their world.

    In the pre-modern world, it was generally understood that there were
    two ways of arriving at truth. Plato called them mythos and logos.
    Neither was superior to the other. Logos (reason; science) was exact,
    practical and essential to human life. To be effective, it had to
    correspond to external reality. Myth expressed the more elusive,
    puzzling aspects of human experience. It has often been called a
    primitive form of psychology, which helped people negotiate their
    inner world. A mythical story, such as a cosmology, described
    something that had happened once, but also happened all the time. A
    myth was essentially a programme of action. Unless you put it into
    practice, you could not judge its truth.

    Myth could not help you create efficient technology or run your
    society. But logos had its limits too. If you became a refugee or
    witnessed a terrible natural catastrophe, you did not simply want a
    logical explanation; you also wanted myth to show you how to manage
    your grief. With the advent of our scientific modernity, however,
    logos achieved such spectacular results that myth was discredited, and
    now, in popular parlance a myth is something that did not happen, that
    is untrue. But some religious people also began to read religious
    myths as though they were logos.

    The conflict between science and faith has thus been based on a
    misunderstanding of the nature of scriptural discourse. Many people,
    including those who are religious, find it difficult to think
    mythically, because our education and society is fuelled entirely by
    logos. This has made religion impossible for many people in the west,
    and it could be argued that much of the stridency of Christian
    fundamentalism is based on a buried fear of creeping unbelief.

    In the pre-modern world, it was considered dangerous to mix mythos and
    logos, because each had a different sphere of competence. Much of the
    heat could be taken out of the evolution versus creation struggle if
    it were admitted that to read the first chapter of Genesis as though
    it were an exact account of the origins of life is not only bad
    science; it is also bad religion.

    From issue 2510 of New Scientist magazine, 30 July 2005, page 42

    Axel:

    anyone out there hear the NPS program by that one Rabbi dude? that was
    interesting. the old testament's punishment of killing a fetus doesn't
    seem to carry anything like the weight of killing a human being. i'd
    agree. also the opinion on the judaic take on homosexuality.. though
    that may be left to interpretation. i don't particularly care for it
    (except for some genuinely hot lesbianism, of course) but i do find
    the irresponsible and narcissistic unrestrained plunge into hedonism a
    bit offensive. let's face it, what religion would support a subset of
    its population that doesn't reproduce?

    why is it so difficult to allow for the universe that God created to
    have been created over a long period of time? why can't every species
    that emerges from this universe have its own communion with the
    divine, actively seeking not only its own survival but also its own
    evolutionary development? can't we all be divine creatures? why do
    people insist on a puerile version of an anthropomorphic god of
    punishment and reward? i think that's a failure of individual
    evolution. i see our species, right here in america, taking a
    disturbing turn towards devolution.
    --
    "... the street term for it would be 'Byxmyndig' *legal to get in
    pants* (it's true)" - Dukeman, in AGHL

  2. Science doesn't deal with religion, so there is no one vs. the
    other. That's one reason why religious geneticists don't end up with
    the Multiple Personality Disorder.

    "Dr. Francis Collins, an evangelical Christian who has directed the
    Human Genome Project in the United States, lamented: - We seem to be
    engaged in contentious, destructive, and wholly unnecessary debate
    about evolution and creation. From my perspective as a scientist
    working on the genome, the evidence in favor of evolution is
    overwhelming . . . Outside of a time machine, Darwin could hardly have
    imagined a more powerful data set than comparative genomics to confirm
    his theory."

    Question is, why all those people who never wrote a single paper on
    evolution theory keep writing books on it?

  3. DZ said:

    Question is, why all those people who never wrote a single paper on
    evolution theory keep writing books on it?

    God told them to.

    Duh.

    David

  4. On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:47:41 GMT, [email hidden] (Axel of the North!)

    Quoted message said:

    Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...

    After seeing the Daily Show's weeklong "Evolution Schmevolution" and
    the apparent endemic descent of common sense in these modern times i
    thought it would be nice for the denizens of MFW to read a book
    review. it isn't the same as an interview with the author on a
    kick-ass fake news show, but it'll do for now.

    Reviewed: The Evolution-Creation Struggle by Michael Ruse
    30 July 2005, New Scientist

    There is no inherent struggle between science and the Bible. They are
    two distinctly different things and suggesting there is a struggle
    between them is like suggesting there is a struggle between paper and
    sheetrock.

    Quoted message said:

    Karen Armstrong reviewing Michael Ruse's "The Evolution-Creation
    Struggle", Harvard University Press, 2005

    THE clash between those who adhere to the scientific theory of
    evolution and those who believe that the biblical story of the six-day
    creation is literally true is a struggle between two religions. So

    Science is not a religion. Science is not based on blind faith but
    rather on what can be proven. Science does not purport to tell anyone
    why we are here but rather endeavors to tell us such things as the
    rate that products yield reactants when you change variables around.

    Quoted message said:

    concludes Michael Ruse in his accessible, skilfully written book.
    Since the Enlightenment, he says, scientists have offered up an
    alternative vision of the nature of reality, and those among them who
    are most opposed to religion can proselytise with as much zeal as an
    evangelical Christian.

    Science:
    why, why, why why, I have no idea.

    Religion
    why, why, why, why, God did it.

    It is a profound difference and only people interested in an us vs.
    them moronic strawman struggle can ignore it.

    Quoted message said:

    For Richard Dawkins, contemplation of the natural world through the
    eyes of science is a religious experience, providing the same
    "spine-shivering, breath-catching awe - almost worship" as cultivated
    by the great religions.

    I have no problem with this. Note, his experience was religious and
    stopped being scientific at that point. Fine.

    Quoted message said:

    Yet Dawkins regards faith as one of the world's great evils,
    "comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate". He defines
    faith as "belief that isn't based on evidence", whereas science is
    based upon verifiable facts. Even those who would not go as far in
    their condemnation of religion would probably agree that modern
    science has undermined the conventional notion of God. There is a
    widespread, popular conviction that science and religion are
    diametrically opposed, and that science has rendered most religious
    truth frankly incredible.

    [censored]. Science does not undermine faith in any way. If science
    quibbles with the age of the earth as defined in the Bible then maybe
    the bible meant that as an allegorical tale not intended to convey
    exact dates. So what? Religious faith will always be about placing
    your trust in a higher power (in whatever way that has meaning to
    you).

    Quoted message said:

    But this conviction is based on an erroneous assumption: that faith is
    synonymous with belief, and that to be religious, people must accept
    certain credal propositions. This is a relatively recent development,
    one that has arisen since the Enlightenment, and then only in the
    west. Originally the Middle English word beleven meant "to love". The
    Latin credo probably derives from co do: "I give my heart". Faith was
    therefore not belief but commitment. Even Martin Luther, who taught
    that human beings were justified by faith, did not define faith by
    belief; he had in fact very little time for dogma and creeds. Faith
    was a heroic cultivation of trust in the idea that, against all the
    evidence to the contrary, life had some ultimate, though ineffable,
    meaning and value.

    This is what I just said but with more words.

    Quoted message said:

    Religion is not about thinking, but doing things that change you at a
    profound level”Most of the great religions have had no interest in
    metaphysical doctrines. Religion is not about thinking things but
    about doing things that change you at a profound level. At best,
    theology is regarded as a kind of poetry about matters that must, by
    their very nature, elude definition. The Koran calls theological
    speculation zanna, self-indulgent guesswork about matters that nobody
    can prove one way or the other. Every single verse, every story told
    in the Koran is called an aya, a parable, because it is only possible
    to talk about the indescribable God in terms of signs and symbols.
    Hence, Darwin and his evolutionary theory has raised scarcely a ripple
    of concern in the Muslim world.

    Indeed.

    Holy [censored], that article goes on WAY too long.

    --
    Is this thing on?

  5. "Axel of the North!" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...

    After seeing the Daily Show's weeklong "Evolution Schmevolution" and
    the apparent endemic descent of common sense in these modern times i
    thought it would be nice for the denizens of MFW to read a book
    review. it isn't the same as an interview with the author on a
    kick-ass fake news show, but it'll do for now.

    Reviewed: The Evolution-Creation Struggle by Michael Ruse
    30 July 2005, New Scientist

    Karen Armstrong reviewing Michael Ruse's "The Evolution-Creation
    Struggle", Harvard University Press, 2005

    Quoted message said:

    The Koran calls theological
    speculation zanna, self-indulgent guesswork about matters that nobody
    can prove one way or the other. Every single verse, every story told
    in the Koran is called an aya, a parable, because it is only possible
    to talk about the indescribable God in terms of signs and symbols.
    Hence, Darwin and his evolutionary theory has raised scarcely a ripple
    of concern in the Muslim world.


    That must explain their tolerance for diverse interpretations of God's word
    and general open-mindedness......................

  6. "Joe Humble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:47:41 GMT, [email hidden] (Axel of the North!)

    Quoted message said:

    Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...

    After seeing the Daily Show's weeklong "Evolution Schmevolution" and
    the apparent endemic descent of common sense in these modern times i
    thought it would be nice for the denizens of MFW to read a book
    review. it isn't the same as an interview with the author on a
    kick-ass fake news show, but it'll do for now.

    Reviewed: The Evolution-Creation Struggle by Michael Ruse
    30 July 2005, New Scientist

    There is no inherent struggle between science and the Bible. They are
    two distinctly different things and suggesting there is a struggle
    between them is like suggesting there is a struggle between paper and
    sheetrock.

    Actually there is; albeit, it is one-sided. Religion railies against science
    all the time (the fanatics at least). Reason, science has removed most of
    the fear based tactics that religion used to keep the masses in line (that
    is, supporting the church). Science did this by providing sound, scientific
    reasons for natural phenomena that religion once used to demonstrate, "The
    wrath of God!!"

    Quoted message said:

    Holy [censored], that article goes on WAY too long.

    If you cannot dazzle them with fact, bore them into submission ;-)

    --
    Dr. Dickie
    Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
    Poking kooks with a pointy stick

  7. "Dr. Dickie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1127474104.cdb4ce13c76ab5fc9dd72bf1b51f93dc@teranews...

    Quoted message said:


    "Joe Humble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:47:41 GMT, [email hidden] (Axel of the North!)

    Quoted message said:

    Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...

    After seeing the Daily Show's weeklong "Evolution Schmevolution" and
    the apparent endemic descent of common sense in these modern times i
    thought it would be nice for the denizens of MFW to read a book
    review. it isn't the same as an interview with the author on a
    kick-ass fake news show, but it'll do for now.

    Reviewed: The Evolution-Creation Struggle by Michael Ruse
    30 July 2005, New Scientist

    There is no inherent struggle between science and the Bible. They are
    two distinctly different things and suggesting there is a struggle
    between them is like suggesting there is a struggle between paper and
    sheetrock.

    Actually there is; albeit, it is one-sided. Religion railies against


    science

    Quoted message said:

    all the time (the fanatics at least). Reason, science has removed most of
    the fear based tactics that religion used to keep the masses in line (that
    is, supporting the church). Science did this by providing sound,


    scientific

    Quoted message said:

    reasons for natural phenomena that religion once used to demonstrate, "The
    wrath of God!!"

    There is even a great example, the hurricanes that are currently plaguing
    the USA.
    Many years ago (the dark ages, when religion was king), we would have
    thought that these were the result of gods wrath.
    Today, thanks to science, we know they are caused by G.W. Bush (just ask the
    news media!).

    --
    ------
    Dr. Dickie
    "Let be be finale of seem.
    The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
    -- Wallace Stevens

  8. Dr. Dickie said:

    Today, thanks to science, we know they are caused by G.W. Bush (just ask the
    news media!).

    God is angry with the chimp for using his name to justify killing
    thousands of people.
    TBR

    "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
    more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
    the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
    White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
    "Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
    but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

  9. Dr. Dickie said:

    "Joe Humble" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    (Axel of the North!) said:

    Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...

    Holy [censored], that article goes on WAY too long.

    If you cannot dazzle them with fact, bore them into submission ;-)

    Long time ago Novosibirsk State University had been holding a
    USSR-wide student competition for the best paper and presentation on
    philosophy of science, where my good friend and me as co-authors took
    the second place. I was presenting. A chemistry guy from the Republic
    of Georgia took the first place. At first I had some sense of
    accomplishment, but shortly after the event become totally
    disillusioned. I now reduce the whole philosophy of science to a bunch
    of stupid rules, like: there isn't good without bad; no smoke without
    fire; every coin has the opposite side, etc. Mix in some fluff and
    you're ready to write books on Intelligent Design.

    IMO, "science philosophers", who never bothered to do any actual
    science, are a bunch of useless smoke blowers who only get in
    the way :-)

  10. "DZ" <3108*3@190*7630*056.1997*4688*0.30*38*0.2*59*1.9*29*8> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Dr. Dickie said:

    "Joe Humble" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Axel of the North!) wrote:

    >Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...

    Holy [censored], that article goes on WAY too long.

    If you cannot dazzle them with fact, bore them into submission ;-)

    Long time ago Novosibirsk State University had been holding a
    USSR-wide student competition for the best paper and presentation on
    philosophy of science, where my good friend and me as co-authors took
    the second place. I was presenting. A chemistry guy from the Republic
    of Georgia took the first place. At first I had some sense of
    accomplishment, but shortly after the event become totally
    disillusioned. I now reduce the whole philosophy of science to a bunch
    of stupid rules, like: there isn't good without bad; no smoke without
    fire; every coin has the opposite side, etc. Mix in some fluff and
    you're ready to write books on Intelligent Design.

    IMO, "science philosophers", who never bothered to do any actual
    science, are a bunch of useless smoke blowers who only get in
    the way :-)

    That was the way it was in the early stages of modern Western scientific
    thought. Math, philosophy and science were not developed as discrete
    subjects. There was obviously more room at the time for some pretty fanciful
    constructs that could not be proven or disproven. Nevertheless, some of
    those philosopher's names are still prominently represented in math texts.

  11. ATP* said:
    DZ said:
    Dr. Dickie said:

    "Joe Humble" <[email hidden]> wrote
    > [email hidden] (Axel of the North!) wrote:
    >>Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...
    >
    > Holy [censored], that article goes on WAY too long.

    If you cannot dazzle them with fact, bore them into submission ;-)

    Long time ago Novosibirsk State University had been holding a
    USSR-wide student competition for the best paper and presentation on
    philosophy of science, where my good friend and me as co-authors took
    the second place. I was presenting. A chemistry guy from the Republic
    of Georgia took the first place. At first I had some sense of
    accomplishment, but shortly after the event become totally
    disillusioned. I now reduce the whole philosophy of science to a bunch
    of stupid rules, like: there isn't good without bad; no smoke without
    fire; every coin has the opposite side, etc. Mix in some fluff and
    you're ready to write books on Intelligent Design.

    IMO, "science philosophers", who never bothered to do any actual
    science, are a bunch of useless smoke blowers who only get in
    the way :-)

    That was the way it was in the early stages of modern Western scientific
    thought. Math, philosophy and science were not developed as discrete
    subjects. There was obviously more room at the time for some pretty fanciful
    constructs that could not be proven or disproven. Nevertheless, some of
    those philosopher's names are still prominently represented in math texts.

    I would forgive a mathematician who's occasionally gone
    philosopher. BTW, modern theory of evolution is largely applied
    mathematics. But philosophers of science who aren't primarily
    scientists don't have anything useful to tell us. They only spread the
    kind of drivel that makes it hard to teach evolution in schools and as
    a consequence hinder the progress of genetic and medical research.

  12. "DZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    ATP* said:
    DZ said:

    Dr. Dickie <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > "Joe Humble" <[email hidden]> wrote
    >> [email hidden] (Axel of the North!) wrote:
    >>>Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...
    >>
    >> Holy [censored], that article goes on WAY too long.
    >
    > If you cannot dazzle them with fact, bore them into submission ;-)

    Long time ago Novosibirsk State University had been holding a
    USSR-wide student competition for the best paper and presentation on
    philosophy of science, where my good friend and me as co-authors took
    the second place. I was presenting. A chemistry guy from the Republic
    of Georgia took the first place. At first I had some sense of
    accomplishment, but shortly after the event become totally
    disillusioned. I now reduce the whole philosophy of science to a bunch
    of stupid rules, like: there isn't good without bad; no smoke without
    fire; every coin has the opposite side, etc. Mix in some fluff and
    you're ready to write books on Intelligent Design.

    IMO, "science philosophers", who never bothered to do any actual
    science, are a bunch of useless smoke blowers who only get in
    the way :-)

    That was the way it was in the early stages of modern Western scientific
    thought. Math, philosophy and science were not developed as discrete
    subjects. There was obviously more room at the time for some pretty
    fanciful
    constructs that could not be proven or disproven. Nevertheless, some of
    those philosopher's names are still prominently represented in math
    texts.

    I would forgive a mathematician who's occasionally gone
    philosopher. BTW, modern theory of evolution is largely applied
    mathematics. But philosophers of science who aren't primarily
    scientists don't have anything useful to tell us. They only spread the
    kind of drivel that makes it hard to teach evolution in schools and as
    a consequence hinder the progress of genetic and medical research.

    Agreed. At this point, there is not much need for that type of mental
    masturbation.

  13. --
    Dr. Dickie
    Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
    Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
    "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
    discoveries,
    is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'😉, but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
    - Isaac Asimov

    "DZ" <3108*3@190*7630*056.1997*4688*0.30*38*0.2*59*1.9*29*8> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Dr. Dickie said:

    "Joe Humble" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Axel of the North!) wrote:

    >Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...

    Holy [censored], that article goes on WAY too long.

    If you cannot dazzle them with fact, bore them into submission ;-)

    Long time ago Novosibirsk State University had been holding a
    USSR-wide student competition for the best paper and presentation on
    philosophy of science, where my good friend and me as co-authors took
    the second place. I was presenting. A chemistry guy from the Republic
    of Georgia took the first place. At first I had some sense of
    accomplishment, but shortly after the event become totally
    disillusioned. I now reduce the whole philosophy of science to a bunch
    of stupid rules, like: there isn't good without bad; no smoke without
    fire; every coin has the opposite side, etc. Mix in some fluff and
    you're ready to write books on Intelligent Design.

    IMO, "science philosophers", who never bothered to do any actual
    science, are a bunch of useless smoke blowers who only get in
    the way :-)

    Well, I don't know. Have you read any of Poppin's stuff?
    That is the only philosophy of science I am familiar with.
    BTW, intelligent design is not a "theory." In science, the term theory
    refers to a set of rules with a "large body of evidence" supporting it.
    Evolution is a theory, intelligent design is an interesting concept (and I
    actually want to believe it is true, but that is a belief, NOT science--I am
    allowed my personal beliefs).

    --
    Dr. Dickie
    Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
    Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
    "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
    discoveries,
    is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'😉, but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
    - Isaac Asimov

  14. "Dr_Dickie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:1127735908.d1b1ad43465aed9e6d75ebebe105b9a0@teranews...

    Quoted message said:

    --
    Dr. Dickie
    Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
    Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
    "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
    discoveries,
    is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'😉, but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
    - Isaac Asimov

    "DZ" <3108*3@190*7630*056.1997*4688*0.30*38*0.2*59*1.9*29*8> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Dr. Dickie said:

    "Joe Humble" <[email hidden]> wrote
    > [email hidden] (Axel of the North!) wrote:
    >
    > >Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...
    >
    > Holy [censored], that article goes on WAY too long.

    If you cannot dazzle them with fact, bore them into submission ;-)

    Long time ago Novosibirsk State University had been holding a
    USSR-wide student competition for the best paper and presentation on
    philosophy of science, where my good friend and me as co-authors took
    the second place. I was presenting. A chemistry guy from the Republic
    of Georgia took the first place. At first I had some sense of
    accomplishment, but shortly after the event become totally
    disillusioned. I now reduce the whole philosophy of science to a bunch
    of stupid rules, like: there isn't good without bad; no smoke without
    fire; every coin has the opposite side, etc. Mix in some fluff and
    you're ready to write books on Intelligent Design.

    IMO, "science philosophers", who never bothered to do any actual
    science, are a bunch of useless smoke blowers who only get in
    the way :-)

    Well, I don't know. Have you read any of Poppin's stuff?
    That is the only philosophy of science I am familiar with.
    BTW, intelligent design is not a "theory." In science, the term theory
    refers to a set of rules with a "large body of evidence" supporting it.
    Evolution is a theory, intelligent design is an interesting concept (and I
    actually want to believe it is true, but that is a belief, NOT science--I


    am

    Quoted message said:

    allowed my personal beliefs).


    Sorry, I mean Popper, Karl Popper.
    --
    Dr. Dickie
    Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
    Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
    "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
    discoveries,
    is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'😉, but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
    - Isaac Asimov

  15. Dr_Dickie said:
    Dr_Dickie said:
    DZ said:

    Dr. Dickie <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > "Joe Humble" <[email hidden]> wrote
    >> [email hidden] (Axel of the North!) wrote:
    >> >Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...
    >> Holy [censored], that article goes on WAY too long.
    > If you cannot dazzle them with fact, bore them into submission ;-)

    Long time ago Novosibirsk State University had been holding a
    USSR-wide student competition for the best paper and presentation on
    philosophy of science, where my good friend and me as co-authors took
    the second place. I was presenting. A chemistry guy from the Republic
    of Georgia took the first place. At first I had some sense of
    accomplishment, but shortly after the event become totally
    disillusioned. I now reduce the whole philosophy of science to a bunch
    of stupid rules, like: there isn't good without bad; no smoke without
    fire; every coin has the opposite side, etc. Mix in some fluff and
    you're ready to write books on Intelligent Design.

    IMO, "science philosophers", who never bothered to do any actual
    science, are a bunch of useless smoke blowers who only get in
    the way :-)

    Well, I don't know. Have you read any of Poppin's stuff?
    That is the only philosophy of science I am familiar with.
    BTW, intelligent design is not a "theory." In science, the term theory
    refers to a set of rules with a "large body of evidence" supporting it.
    Evolution is a theory, intelligent design is an interesting concept (and I
    actually want to believe it is true, but that is a belief, NOT science--I
    am allowed my personal beliefs).


    Sorry, I mean Popper, Karl Popper.

    I don't think ID is a theory either. I've read "The logic of
    scientific discovery", in the 80s. How could I not? - after all, I'm
    an accomplished philosopher of science ;-) BTW, there Popper opined
    that there is no such thing as positive evidence, so I'm not sure how
    you can talk about Popper and refer to some nebulous "large body of
    evidence supporting" something, in the same paragraph. Too much
    Popper, too badly read, Professor :-)

    Light-hearted discussion of science as opposed to pompous preaching
    along the lines of "how y'all should do science" could be
    interesting. I've read with interest some science philosophy papers by
    a Bayesian statistician IJ Good. But those are to an extent like
    probability puzzles and he's really "Good" at that, e.g.

    "The hypothesis that all crows are black is the same as that all
    non-black things are not crows, and this is supported by the
    observation of a white shoe". True or False?

    (answer - the white shoe is a red herring).

  16. "DZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Dr_Dickie said:
    Dr_Dickie said:

    DZ wrote:
    > Dr. Dickie <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > > "Joe Humble" <[email hidden]> wrote
    > >> [email hidden] (Axel of the North!) wrote:
    > >> >Hey kids! Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Ughhh...
    > >> Holy [censored], that article goes on WAY too long.
    > > If you cannot dazzle them with fact, bore them into submission ;-)
    >
    > Long time ago Novosibirsk State University had been holding a
    > USSR-wide student competition for the best paper and presentation on
    > philosophy of science, where my good friend and me as co-authors took
    > the second place. I was presenting. A chemistry guy from the Republic
    > of Georgia took the first place. At first I had some sense of
    > accomplishment, but shortly after the event become totally
    > disillusioned. I now reduce the whole philosophy of science to a bunch
    > of stupid rules, like: there isn't good without bad; no smoke without
    > fire; every coin has the opposite side, etc. Mix in some fluff and
    > you're ready to write books on Intelligent Design.
    >
    > IMO, "science philosophers", who never bothered to do any actual
    > science, are a bunch of useless smoke blowers who only get in
    > the way :-)

    Well, I don't know. Have you read any of Poppin's stuff?
    That is the only philosophy of science I am familiar with.
    BTW, intelligent design is not a "theory." In science, the term theory
    refers to a set of rules with a "large body of evidence" supporting it.
    Evolution is a theory, intelligent design is an interesting concept


    (and I

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    actually want to believe it is true, but that is a belief, NOT


    science--I

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    am allowed my personal beliefs).


    Sorry, I mean Popper, Karl Popper.

    I don't think ID is a theory either. I've read "The logic of
    scientific discovery", in the 80s. How could I not? - after all, I'm
    an accomplished philosopher of science ;-) BTW, there Popper opined
    that there is no such thing as positive evidence, so I'm not sure how
    you can talk about Popper and refer to some nebulous "large body of
    evidence supporting" something, in the same paragraph. Too much
    Popper, too badly read, Professor :-)

    Hey, I said I like Popper, I did not say all of the rest of science goes by
    Popper's reasoning (I do agree with him though; although, I think he would
    agree that when scientists say that something is supported by evidence, they
    mean that it has been tested and a non-negative result has been found.)

    Quoted message said:


    Light-hearted discussion of science as opposed to pompous preaching
    along the lines of "how y'all should do science" could be
    interesting. I've read with interest some science philosophy papers by
    a Bayesian statistician IJ Good. But those are to an extent like
    probability puzzles and he's really "Good" at that, e.g.

    "The hypothesis that all crows are black is the same as that all
    non-black things are not crows, and this is supported by the
    observation of a white shoe". True or False?

    (answer - the white shoe is a red herring).

    Could be fun for mental conditioning (since I work in Alzheimer's research,
    this is never far from my thoughts); however, I am much more interested in
    the philosophy that goes into the formation of the scientific method. I
    should dust off my Popper and give it another read this winter.
    Any suggestions for someone else? How about Popper's protégé, David Miller,
    any good?

    --
    Dr. Dickie
    Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
    Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
    "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
    discoveries,
    is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'😉, but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
    - Isaac Asimov

  17. "Dr_Dickie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:1127820053.fe6e7e6c7079a6c04c9adc93b4e95ad0@teranews:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Well, I don't know. Have you read any of Poppin's stuff?
    > That is the only philosophy of science I am familiar with.
    > BTW, intelligent design is not a "theory." In science, the term
    > theory refers to a set of rules with a "large body of evidence"
    > supporting it. Evolution is a theory, intelligent design is an
    > interesting concept (and I actually want to believe it is true, but
    > that is a belief, NOT science--I am allowed my personal beliefs).
    >
    Sorry, I mean Popper, Karl Popper.

    I don't think ID is a theory either. I've read "The logic of
    scientific discovery", in the 80s. How could I not? - after all, I'm
    an accomplished philosopher of science ;-) BTW, there Popper opined
    that there is no such thing as positive evidence, so I'm not sure how
    you can talk about Popper and refer to some nebulous "large body of
    evidence supporting" something, in the same paragraph. Too much
    Popper, too badly read, Professor :-)

    Hey, I said I like Popper, I did not say all of the rest of science goes
    by Popper's reasoning (I do agree with him though; although, I think he
    would agree that when scientists say that something is supported by
    evidence, they mean that it has been tested and a non-negative result
    has been found.)

    I think the point here is that a theory can never be proved, only disproved.
    So Einstein's theory of relativity hasn't been proved, despite the large
    body of evidence supporting it; someone could show up tomorrow with an
    experimental result contradicting that predicted by relativity. Relativity
    would then need to be replaced with a better model.

    Which has interesting implications for Intelligent Design. Even if we could
    figure out how to turn ID into a scientifically testable hypothesis, we
    still couldn't prove the existance of the Designer--we could only show that
    we had failed to disprove it.

    Hugh

    --
    Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
    chocolate. ("Ladi"😉

  18. "Dr_Dickie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:1127820053.fe6e7e6c7079a6c04c9adc93b4e95ad0@teranews:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Well, I don't know. Have you read any of Poppin's stuff?
    > That is the only philosophy of science I am familiar with.
    > BTW, intelligent design is not a "theory." In science, the term
    > theory refers to a set of rules with a "large body of evidence"
    > supporting it. Evolution is a theory, intelligent design is an
    > interesting concept (and I actually want to believe it is true, but
    > that is a belief, NOT science--I am allowed my personal beliefs).
    >
    Sorry, I mean Popper, Karl Popper.

    I don't think ID is a theory either. I've read "The logic of
    scientific discovery", in the 80s. How could I not? - after all, I'm
    an accomplished philosopher of science ;-) BTW, there Popper opined
    that there is no such thing as positive evidence, so I'm not sure how
    you can talk about Popper and refer to some nebulous "large body of
    evidence supporting" something, in the same paragraph. Too much
    Popper, too badly read, Professor :-)

    Hey, I said I like Popper, I did not say all of the rest of science goes
    by Popper's reasoning (I do agree with him though; although, I think he
    would agree that when scientists say that something is supported by
    evidence, they mean that it has been tested and a non-negative result
    has been found.)

    I think the point here is that a theory can never be proved, only disproved.
    So Einstein's theory of relativity hasn't been proved, despite the large
    body of evidence supporting it; someone could show up tomorrow with an
    experimental result contradicting that predicted by relativity. Relativity
    would then need to be replaced with a better model.

    Which has interesting implications for Intelligent Design. Even if we could
    figure out how to turn ID into a scientifically testable hypothesis, we
    still couldn't prove the existance of the Designer--we could only show that
    we had failed to disprove it.

    Hugh

    --
    Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
    chocolate. ("Ladi"😉

  19. "Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Dr_Dickie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:1127820053.fe6e7e6c7079a6c04c9adc93b4e95ad0@teranews:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> Well, I don't know. Have you read any of Poppin's stuff?
    >> That is the only philosophy of science I am familiar with.
    >> BTW, intelligent design is not a "theory." In science, the term
    >> theory refers to a set of rules with a "large body of evidence"
    >> supporting it. Evolution is a theory, intelligent design is an
    >> interesting concept (and I actually want to believe it is true, but
    >> that is a belief, NOT science--I am allowed my personal beliefs).
    >>
    > Sorry, I mean Popper, Karl Popper.

    I don't think ID is a theory either. I've read "The logic of
    scientific discovery", in the 80s. How could I not? - after all, I'm
    an accomplished philosopher of science ;-) BTW, there Popper opined
    that there is no such thing as positive evidence, so I'm not sure how
    you can talk about Popper and refer to some nebulous "large body of
    evidence supporting" something, in the same paragraph. Too much
    Popper, too badly read, Professor :-)

    Hey, I said I like Popper, I did not say all of the rest of science goes
    by Popper's reasoning (I do agree with him though; although, I think he
    would agree that when scientists say that something is supported by
    evidence, they mean that it has been tested and a non-negative result
    has been found.)

    I think the point here is that a theory can never be proved, only


    disproved.

    Quoted message said:

    So Einstein's theory of relativity hasn't been proved, despite the large
    body of evidence supporting it; someone could show up tomorrow with an
    experimental result contradicting that predicted by relativity. Relativity
    would then need to be replaced with a better model.

    That is the thesis of Popper's work (and in fact, that is the scientific
    method--relativity did just that to Newtonian physics); however, Popper does
    conclude that the only theories worth considering are those that have a
    large amount of information and have produced non-negative results when
    tested (the more the testing the better).
    Also, it does not necessarilly need to be replace, just better defined as to
    what the constraints of the theory are (as NO scientific theory works 100%
    of the time).

    Quoted message said:

    Which has interesting implications for Intelligent Design. Even if we


    could

    Quoted message said:

    figure out how to turn ID into a scientifically testable hypothesis, we
    still couldn't prove the existance of the Designer--we could only show


    that

    Quoted message said:

    we had failed to disprove it.

    Hugh


    Right, which is why it is not scientific. The heart of Popper's work was
    that something which cannot POSSIBLY give a negative result is not part of
    science.
    Faith, on the other hand, incorporates all else. Kinda makes for a nice neat
    package. Problems, of course, arise when the two are confused.
    Personally, bright shiny objects tend to do that to me ;-)

    --
    ------
    Dr. Dickie
    "Let be be finale of seem.
    The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
    -- Wallace Stevens

  20. "Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Dr_Dickie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:1127820053.fe6e7e6c7079a6c04c9adc93b4e95ad0@teranews:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> Well, I don't know. Have you read any of Poppin's stuff?
    >> That is the only philosophy of science I am familiar with.
    >> BTW, intelligent design is not a "theory." In science, the term
    >> theory refers to a set of rules with a "large body of evidence"
    >> supporting it. Evolution is a theory, intelligent design is an
    >> interesting concept (and I actually want to believe it is true, but
    >> that is a belief, NOT science--I am allowed my personal beliefs).
    >>
    > Sorry, I mean Popper, Karl Popper.

    I don't think ID is a theory either. I've read "The logic of
    scientific discovery", in the 80s. How could I not? - after all, I'm
    an accomplished philosopher of science ;-) BTW, there Popper opined
    that there is no such thing as positive evidence, so I'm not sure how
    you can talk about Popper and refer to some nebulous "large body of
    evidence supporting" something, in the same paragraph. Too much
    Popper, too badly read, Professor :-)

    Hey, I said I like Popper, I did not say all of the rest of science goes
    by Popper's reasoning (I do agree with him though; although, I think he
    would agree that when scientists say that something is supported by
    evidence, they mean that it has been tested and a non-negative result
    has been found.)

    I think the point here is that a theory can never be proved, only


    disproved.

    Quoted message said:

    So Einstein's theory of relativity hasn't been proved, despite the large
    body of evidence supporting it; someone could show up tomorrow with an
    experimental result contradicting that predicted by relativity. Relativity
    would then need to be replaced with a better model.

    That is the thesis of Popper's work (and in fact, that is the scientific
    method--relativity did just that to Newtonian physics); however, Popper does
    conclude that the only theories worth considering are those that have a
    large amount of information and have produced non-negative results when
    tested (the more the testing the better).
    Also, it does not necessarilly need to be replace, just better defined as to
    what the constraints of the theory are (as NO scientific theory works 100%
    of the time).

    Quoted message said:

    Which has interesting implications for Intelligent Design. Even if we


    could

    Quoted message said:

    figure out how to turn ID into a scientifically testable hypothesis, we
    still couldn't prove the existance of the Designer--we could only show


    that

    Quoted message said:

    we had failed to disprove it.

    Hugh


    Right, which is why it is not scientific. The heart of Popper's work was
    that something which cannot POSSIBLY give a negative result is not part of
    science.
    Faith, on the other hand, incorporates all else. Kinda makes for a nice neat
    package. Problems, of course, arise when the two are confused.
    Personally, bright shiny objects tend to do that to me ;-)

    --
    ------
    Dr. Dickie
    "Let be be finale of seem.
    The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
    -- Wallace Stevens

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