Not Recommending Frame Builders

"Ian Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There is a thread a little earlier advocating the excellent job Roberts

do.

Quoted message said:

I have a couple of Argos bikes I think are great.
My friend has a Dave Yates which he loves.
Another had a Nelson which he said was is best bike.
Numerous people are delighted with their Longstaff tourers and Tricycles.

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

No, of course not :-)

Tom
--
My lovely Mercian. http://www.toomanybikes.com/twenty.htm

I submit that on or about Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:40:19 +0100, the person
known to the court as Ian Blake <[email hidden]> made a
statement (<[email hidden]> in Your
Honour's bundle) to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

Not for long...

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

in message <[email hidden]>, Ian Blake

(') said:

There is a thread a little earlier advocating the excellent job Roberts
do.

I have a couple of Argos bikes I think are great.
My friend has a Dave Yates which he loves.
Another had a Nelson which he said was is best bike.
Numerous people are delighted with their Longstaff tourers and
Tricycles.

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

If there were they'd go out of business very quickly. Artisan-made bike
frames are more expensive than mass produced ones and the people who
ride them tend to talk to one another. Word of mouth is the fundamental
advertising technique. If word got round that Joe Bloggs frames were
[censored] - or even no better than a mass market frame - Joe Bloggs' business
would be gone like the snows of last winter.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
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M- !d- PS++ PE-- Y+ PGP !t 5? X+ !R b++ !DI D G- e++ h*(-) r++ y+++
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Ian Blake said:

There is a thread a little earlier advocating the excellent job Roberts do.

I have a couple of Argos bikes I think are great.
My friend has a Dave Yates which he loves.
Another had a Nelson which he said was is best bike.
Numerous people are delighted with their Longstaff tourers and Tricycles.

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

Possibly not.
There are several like those above who make superb machines.

Then there's Roberts ;-)

John B

Ian Blake said:

There is a thread a little earlier advocating the excellent job Roberts do.

I have a couple of Argos bikes I think are great.
My friend has a Dave Yates which he loves.
Another had a Nelson which he said was is best bike.
Numerous people are delighted with their Longstaff tourers and Tricycles.

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

Whilst Raleigh were/are by no means a small framemaker one should
acknowledge that they are responsible for setting the standard which
British small framemakers maintain.

I don't know of any riders who've had complaints with Raleigh frames.
The only complaint seems to be their weight.

Ian Blake said:

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

I guess there are a fair few, people doing their own and putting the
first effort or two down to experience and practice. But you'll only
try and make a living selling them if you know, and your cycling pals
know, you do a /very/ good job, or if you haven't got a clue. The
latter flavour wouldn't last long...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Ian Blake said:

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

I guess there are a fair few, people doing their own and putting the
first effort or two down to experience and practice. But you'll only
try and make a living selling them if you know, and your cycling pals
know, you do a /very/ good job, or if you haven't got a clue. The
latter flavour wouldn't last long...

In my small sample of knowledge, most small frame builders started off
building them for friends and then things took off from there, or
worked as an apprentice at an established builder and branched out on
their own.

As has been said, you are only as good as the last frame you produced..
One bad review and people will look elsewhere. AN almost perfect
example of market forces in action.

...d

Quoted message said:

I don't know of any riders who've had complaints with Raleigh frames.
The only complaint seems to be their weight.

Raleigh certainly made some comparitively poor bikes at the end. On
the other hand Raleigh Special Products made some of the very best
stuff.

The Nottingham Duck wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

I don't know of any riders who've had complaints with Raleigh frames.
The only complaint seems to be their weight.

You know of one now...
I had 3 Raleigh road bike frames crack or break in 5 years in the 90's,
and a front fork collapse under me as well. I now own a Giant.
The Luggage

in message <[email hidden]>, The Nottingham

Duck (') said:

Ian Blake said:

There is a thread a little earlier advocating the excellent job Roberts
do.

I have a couple of Argos bikes I think are great.
My friend has a Dave Yates which he loves.
Another had a Nelson which he said was is best bike.
Numerous people are delighted with their Longstaff tourers and
Tricycles.

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

Quoted message said:

Whilst Raleigh were/are by no means a small framemaker one should
acknowledge that they are responsible for setting the standard which
British small framemakers maintain.

Whoops! No sir. I've had a number of Raleigh frames over the years,
including one custom made for me by Special Products Division. Most
(including the fifteen year old Record Sprint I still have) have been
pretty cruddy. Even the best of the Raleigh frames were never in the
same class as the good artisan builders; their advantage was that they
were cheaper and I could afford them.

Raleigh used to be a maker of fairly honest, reasonable quality, mass
market bikes. Special Products Division were better than that. But
Raleigh were never makers of really good bikes, and nowadays they're
merely vendors of really bad ones.

Quoted message said:

I don't know of any riders who've had complaints with Raleigh frames.
The only complaint seems to be their weight.

....and the poor quality brazing, and the bad alignment, and the poor
finish, and the brakes which never worked, and...

Don't let nostalgia fool you. Most Raleighs weren't even good compared to
other contemporary bikes. I bought a Raleigh Special Products frame
because I couldn't afford a Alan Dent frame, not because I thought it
would be anything like as good as an Alan Dent frame.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
;; languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their
;; pockets for new vocabulary -- James D. Nicoll

Quoted message said:

Don't let nostalgia fool you. Most Raleighs weren't even good compared to
other contemporary bikes. I bought a Raleigh Special Products frame
because I couldn't afford a Alan Dent frame, not because I thought it
would be anything like as good as an Alan Dent frame.

Err, hold on a minute. I am a very happy owner of a Raleigh Royale
purchased from new in 1989. It has been exceptionally reliable and the
frame has been a pleasure to ride.

I have no doubt that bespoke hand-built bike is better but at the price
I think that my Royale was a bargain.
--
Bob Downie
Downie GeoScience Ltd.
please remove #n0spam# to reply directly

Simon Brooke said:

Raleigh used to be a maker of fairly honest, reasonable quality, mass
market bikes. Special Products Division were better than that. But
Raleigh were never makers of really good bikes, and nowadays they're
merely vendors of really bad ones.

I hope that's not true: I'm awaiting a delivery of eight Raleigh
bikes. I had no say in the supplier of the bikes.

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, The Nottingham

Duck (') said:

Ian Blake said:

There is a thread a little earlier advocating the excellent job Roberts
do.

I have a couple of Argos bikes I think are great.
My friend has a Dave Yates which he loves.
Another had a Nelson which he said was is best bike.
Numerous people are delighted with their Longstaff tourers and
Tricycles.

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

Quoted message said:

Whilst Raleigh were/are by no means a small framemaker one should
acknowledge that they are responsible for setting the standard which
British small framemakers maintain.

Whoops! No sir. I've had a number of Raleigh frames over the years,
including one custom made for me by Special Products Division. Most
(including the fifteen year old Record Sprint I still have) have been
pretty cruddy. Even the best of the Raleigh frames were never in the
same class as the good artisan builders; their advantage was that they
were cheaper and I could afford them.

What about Carlton?

"Doki" <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

What about Carlton?

= Raleigh Special Products...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

in message <[email hidden]>, Doki

(') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, The

Nottingham Duck (') said:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:40:19 +0100, Ian Blake
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>There is a thread a little earlier advocating the excellent job
>Roberts do.
>
>I have a couple of Argos bikes I think are great.
>My friend has a Dave Yates which he loves.
>Another had a Nelson which he said was is best bike.
>Numerous people are delighted with their Longstaff tourers and
>Tricycles.
>
>Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

Quoted message said:

Whilst Raleigh were/are by no means a small framemaker one should
acknowledge that they are responsible for setting the standard which
British small framemakers maintain.

Whoops! No sir. I've had a number of Raleigh frames over the years,
including one custom made for me by Special Products Division. Most
(including the fifteen year old Record Sprint I still have) have been
pretty cruddy. Even the best of the Raleigh frames were never in the
same class as the good artisan builders; their advantage was that they
were cheaper and I could afford them.

What about Carlton?

AKA 'Special Products Division'

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

in message <[email hidden]>, Bob Downie

('BobMail@downie-geo#n0spam#.co.uk') said:

Quoted message said:

Don't let nostalgia fool you. Most Raleighs weren't even good compared
to other contemporary bikes. I bought a Raleigh Special Products frame
because I couldn't afford a Alan Dent frame, not because I thought it
would be anything like as good as an Alan Dent frame.

Err, hold on a minute. I am a very happy owner of a Raleigh Royale
purchased from new in 1989. It has been exceptionally reliable and the
frame has been a pleasure to ride.

I too have a Royale in the household (my partner's, previously my
sister's, bought new at my recommendation 21 years ago). It's a nice
bike. But when we're comparing it to the Roberts and the Argos and
Hewitts of this world, it's not in the same class - and nor was it, when
new, in the same class as the good artisan bikes of the day. And the
Royale was about the best thing Raleigh then produced. 95% of their
production - or more - was decidedly inferior.

I'm not saying everything Raleigh ever produced was rubbish. As I say
I've had four myself, and still ride one. What I was taking issue with
was the absurd claim that they'd set a standard for the artisans to
follow.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Windows 95:
You, you, you! You make a grown man cry...
M. Jagger/K. Richards

In message <[email hidden]>, Simon
Brooke <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Err, hold on a minute. I am a very happy owner of a Raleigh Royale
purchased from new in 1989. It has been exceptionally reliable and the
frame has been a pleasure to ride.

I too have a Royale in the household (my partner's, previously my
sister's, bought new at my recommendation 21 years ago). It's a nice
bike. But when we're comparing it to the Roberts and the Argos and
Hewitts of this world, it's not in the same class - and nor was it, when
new, in the same class as the good artisan bikes of the day. And the
Royale was about the best thing Raleigh then produced. 95% of their
production - or more - was decidedly inferior.

I'm not saying everything Raleigh ever produced was rubbish. As I say
I've had four myself, and still ride one. What I was taking issue with
was the absurd claim that they'd set a standard for the artisans to
follow.

A fair reply. Your previous post had left me wondering if I had been
fooling myself for all those years.

(returns mollified to hoovering).
--
Bob Downie
Downie GeoScience Ltd.
please remove #n0spam# to reply directly

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Doki
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What about Carlton?

AKA 'Special Products Division'

The same as DynaTech?

I had one of their bikes about 14 years ago, and at the time it was pretty
good. Unfortunately it had RockShox on it, and the seals went so it rapidly
became useless.
--
Chris

Bismarck's reply to the possibility that the British Army would land on the
German Baltic Coast: "I would send the police to arrest them."

Ian Blake said:

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

I think most people would rather convince themselves that their
expensive custom frame is wonderful than spend the next several years
regretting having bought a lemon. This attitude is not unique to bikes,
of course.

James
--
James Annan
see web pages for email
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/
http://julesandjames.blogspot.com/