Lo-carb studies?

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:36:04 -0500, "Ernie Sty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Have there been any relatively large-scale, long-term studies on the effects
of LC diets? I have googled and found LOTS of smaller studies, but there
are many, and some are contradictory while others are complex.

If someone could point me toward published results of larger-scale,
longer-term LC studies I would be appreciative.

No.

x-no-archive: yes

Ernie Sty said:

Have there been any relatively large-scale, long-term studies on the effects
of LC diets? I have googled and found LOTS of smaller studies, but there
are many, and some are contradictory while others are complex.

If someone could point me toward published results of larger-scale,
longer-term LC studies I would be appreciative.

The longest that I'm aware of are by investigators at Duke University,
so try googling up "Duke and Low carb studies." In addition, one can
extrapolate a great deal from other related research on the mortality
rates associated with the serum and bg profiles of low carbers. Look
for information on diet and Hba1c, triglycerides, etc. The diet that
keeps these the lowest, and HDL the highest are likely the healthiest in
the long term.

Susan

Ernie Sty said:

Have there been any relatively large-scale, long-term studies on the effects
of LC diets? I have googled and found LOTS of smaller studies, but there
are many, and some are contradictory while others are complex.

If someone could point me toward published results of larger-scale,
longer-term LC studies I would be appreciative.

An interesting question is "Who Would Pay for such studies, and why?"

There is still the firm conviction by the AMA andAHA (American
Medical/Heart Associations) that LOW FAT is absolutely necessary...
which has been held for over 30 years now, and certainly has acquired
some political clout. Meaning, probably no federal money available to
disprove the AMA AHA basic claims.

--
1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

x-no-archive: yes

Ernie Sty said:

Have there been any relatively large-scale, long-term studies on the effects
of LC diets? I have googled and found LOTS of smaller studies, but there
are many, and some are contradictory while others are complex.

If someone could point me toward published results of larger-scale,
longer-term LC studies I would be appreciative.

Here's a new one, applicable to all, though about diabetics.

Not exactly what you asked for, but contains a discussion about
comparisons between diets. Note, especially, the discussion on page 3.

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/16

Susan

jbuch said:

Ernie Sty said:

Have there been any relatively large-scale, long-term studies on the effects
of LC diets? I have googled and found LOTS of smaller studies, but there
are many, and some are contradictory while others are complex.

If someone could point me toward published results of larger-scale,
longer-term LC studies I would be appreciative.

An interesting question is "Who Would Pay for such studies, and why?"

There is still the firm conviction by the AMA andAHA (American
Medical/Heart Associations) that LOW FAT is absolutely necessary...
which has been held for over 30 years now, and certainly has acquired
some political clout. Meaning, probably no federal money available to
disprove the AMA AHA basic claims.

Additionally, on the Who would Pay Front:
Since most of LC is eating regular foods, there is no natural
constituency. The CPG industry (consumer packaged goods, IE Gen. Mills,
Nestle or Unilever) like/hate LC because they can make LC versions or
not make LC versions and still make $$'s, regardless of how public
opinion goes. LC companies apparently have high start costs with low
return due to a number of factors (lack of need and large niche
placement being chief), so there's not a lot of spare cash around.
Plus, Intuitively, I believe that the LC prepared foods market is
probably pretty cut-throat competitive, due to the structure,
emergence, hype, and likely future of dieting around LC/the LC
Industry.

Maybe the cattlemen, but you don't have to eat beef on LC. Ditto pork
and chicken. OTOH, if I worked at IBP or ConAgra, I might be interested
in running this study, since I'm diversified across proteins and
veggies (though I might lose some grain business).

-Hollywood

"Susan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

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Ernie Sty said:

Have there been any relatively large-scale, long-term studies on the
effects of LC diets? I have googled and found LOTS of smaller studies,
but there are many, and some are contradictory while others are complex.

If someone could point me toward published results of larger-scale,
longer-term LC studies I would be appreciative.

The longest that I'm aware of are by investigators at Duke University, so
try googling up "Duke and Low carb studies." In addition, one can
extrapolate a great deal from other related research on the mortality
rates associated with the serum and bg profiles of low carbers. Look for
information on diet and Hba1c, triglycerides, etc. The diet that keeps
these the lowest, and HDL the highest are likely the healthiest in the
long term.

Susan

Thanks, Susan... I have seen that study and it is ok, but I'd like to see
one done over five to ten years instead of six months. If I had the money,
I'd fund one.

"Susan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

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Ernie Sty said:

Have there been any relatively large-scale, long-term studies on the
effects of LC diets? I have googled and found LOTS of smaller studies,
but there are many, and some are contradictory while others are complex.

If someone could point me toward published results of larger-scale,
longer-term LC studies I would be appreciative.

Here's a new one, applicable to all, though about diabetics.

Not exactly what you asked for, but contains a discussion about
comparisons between diets. Note, especially, the discussion on page 3.

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/16

Susan

Thanks!

jbuch said:

Ernie Sty said:

Have there been any relatively large-scale, long-term studies on the effects
of LC diets? I have googled and found LOTS of smaller studies, but there
are many, and some are contradictory while others are complex.

Quoted message said:

If someone could point me toward published results of larger-scale,
longer-term LC studies I would be appreciative.

An interesting question is "Who Would Pay for such studies, and why?"

For a while the Atkins Foundation was going to fund an
assortment of such studies. Given how people react to
studies by carb companies when thse studies conclude
that carb are good, it remains to be seen the skeptical
reaction to Atkins Foundation funded studies.

The Dr A died and over time less and less has been heard
from the Atkins Foundation. The profits from his vitamins
and suh were supposed to go to the foundation but over
time they ended up under Atkins Nutritionals who wnet broke.

And this clearly shows that LC is not just for diabetes, obesity and
metabolic syndrome as has been suggested by someone on this ng.

on Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:59:56 -0500, "Ernie Sty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a new one, applicable to all, though about diabetics.

Not exactly what you asked for, but contains a discussion about
comparisons between diets. Note, especially, the discussion on page 3.

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/16

Susan

-----
Bev

x-no-archive: yes

Bev-Ann said:

And this clearly shows that LC is not just for diabetes, obesity and
metabolic syndrome as has been suggested by someone on this ng.

Bev-Ann, I don't know if you're being deliberately antagonistic or if
you just have a learning disability. I NEVER said that low carb is only
for metabolic syndrome. YOU said that low carb is marketed to people
for things other than metabolic syndrome and the obese, and when I asked
you for examples, you gave me examples of metabolic syndrome.

Diabetes, hypertension, obesity, CVD are all related to metabolic
syndrome. Can you tell me all the *other* groups that low carbing is
marketed to?

If you can't follow the reasoning or get facts straight, then consider
sitting on your hands til you do.

Susan

"Susan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

syndrome. Can you tell me all the *other* groups that low carbing is
marketed to?

Epilepsy?

--
No Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes

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None Given said:

"Susan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

syndrome. Can you tell me all the *other* groups that low carbing is
marketed to?

Epilepsy?

No. You're thinking of the ketogenic diet that cuts all carbs and most
protein. It's almost all fat, hardly a marketable plan. :-)

Susan

Susan said:

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None Given said:

"Susan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

syndrome. Can you tell me all the *other* groups that low carbing is
marketed to?

Epilepsy?

No. You're thinking of the ketogenic diet that cuts all carbs and most
protein. It's almost all fat, hardly a marketable plan. :-)

Susan

Wow!

"Bev-Ann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And this clearly shows that LC is not just for diabetes, obesity and
metabolic syndrome as has been suggested by someone on this ng.

I don't get your point here, Bev. It seems like these things, and the
symptoms they include pretty much make up most or all the reasons people
low-carb. The list of diseases/symptoms associated with metabolic syndrome
is a very large one.

What other conditions for which LC is marketed, that do not fit into those
categories, are you aware of?

HG

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Hannah Gruen said:

"Bev-Ann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And this clearly shows that LC is not just for diabetes, obesity and
metabolic syndrome as has been suggested by someone on this ng.

I don't get your point here, Bev. It seems like these things, and the
symptoms they include pretty much make up most or all the reasons people
low-carb. The list of diseases/symptoms associated with metabolic syndrome
is a very large one.

What other conditions for which LC is marketed, that do not fit into those
categories, are you aware of?

HG

I'm sure she has a long list of other population groups that low carb is
marketed to. That's probably why it's taking her so long to answer. ;-)

Susan

"Susan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

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Hannah Gruen wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What other conditions for which LC is marketed, that do not fit into
those categories, are you aware of?

HG

I'm sure she has a long list of other population groups that low carb is
marketed to. That's probably why it's taking her so long to answer. ;-)

Actually, I think a lot of people don't realize how many disease conditions
are actually associated with insulin resistance/hyperinsulimia. They may be
aware that a lower carb diet will help mitigate or prevent those conditions,
but not be aware of the underlying endocrine system mechanism.

In my book that's ok. It's not necessary to get a PhD in biochem to be a
successful lc'er. It's just a little annoying when people, uninterested in
investing the time in understanding why/how lc works (and again, there's
nothing wrong with that), get a bit arrogant and pushy with people who
*have* taken the time to get into the science.

Susan, I think that you are now pretty much the resident expert on asdl-c.
8-] Lee Rodgers manned that position for many years, with help from others.
He seems to have more or less dropped away, as has Carmen, another source of
reliable info. And Lyle or Elsie (?) don't seem to drop by any more either.
It's all on your shoulders now, kiddo. (just kidding)

But for some reason, there have always been people who seem to actively
resent it when somebody clearly knows what they are talkin' about. Shrug.
But thanks for all your educational posts.

HG

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Hannah Gruen said:

Actually, I think a lot of people don't realize how many disease conditions
are actually associated with insulin resistance/hyperinsulimia. They may be
aware that a lower carb diet will help mitigate or prevent those conditions,
but not be aware of the underlying endocrine system mechanism.

In my book that's ok. It's not necessary to get a PhD in biochem to be a
successful lc'er. It's just a little annoying when people, uninterested in
investing the time in understanding why/how lc works (and again, there's
nothing wrong with that), get a bit arrogant and pushy with people who
*have* taken the time to get into the science.

Yes, that's my issue. Particularly after itemizing those conditions for
her. I never took aim at her personally before, just at the
information, which she never factually addressed.

Quoted message said:

Susan, I think that you are now pretty much the resident expert on asdl-c.
8-] Lee Rodgers manned that position for many years, with help from others.
He seems to have more or less dropped away, as has Carmen, another source of
reliable info. And Lyle or Elsie (?) don't seem to drop by any more either.
It's all on your shoulders now, kiddo. (just kidding)

I'm glad you're kidding, because I'm only an expert about my own experience.

Quoted message said:

But for some reason, there have always been people who seem to actively
resent it when somebody clearly knows what they are talkin' about. Shrug.
But thanks for all your educational posts.

I don't know if Bev-Ann resents it or not. She clearly is confused by
her own experience; she thinks it represents the sum total of knowledge
about the metabolic effects of foods and diet.

Susan

Susan said:

None Given said:

Susan wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

syndrome. Can you tell me all the *other* groups that low carbing is
marketed to?

Quoted message said:

Epilepsy?

No. You're thinking of the ketogenic diet that cuts all carbs and most
protein. It's almost all fat, hardly a marketable plan. :-)

In the news recently was a study that used approximately
what Atkins actually is to treat epilepsy. The concept
was that a severe ketogenic diet works therefore it is
worth testing whether a moderate ketogenic diet would
work. Since on what Atkins actually is you build up to
the point of being just barely in ketosis, it is as
moderate as you can get without expensive testing.

So, what other groups can I think of ... I'll likely
repeat ones mentioned earlier in the thread as I've been
going through it in reverse chronological order.

PCOS - Many report relieved symptoms. Crones disease and
other forms of IBS - Grain is a common source of lower
digestive problems. Migraines - I haven't seen any
marketing about it but it is mentioned in a couple of the
Atkins books that folks following the process tend to not
get migraines (I've gone from 3-5 per year to 1 in 6 years
since starting).

With any self-immune or degenerative disease it could be
worth trying the eliminate-and-challenge half of Atkins
on the principle that diet at least contributes to the
symptoms.

"Susan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I'm glad you're kidding, because I'm only an expert about my own
experience.

Well, no, actually I wasn't kidding. You are the one who always seems to
have an interesting paper or two to post, and who also seems to actually
understand them. OK, be modest. lol!

Quoted message said:

I don't know if Bev-Ann resents it or not. She clearly is confused by her
own experience; she thinks it represents the sum total of knowledge about
the metabolic effects of foods and diet.

Oh, I wasn't referring to Bev-Ann. She's a nice sort, as far as I've been
able to tell, but somehow there has been some miscommunication between you
two and it's likely kind of temporary. But there is always a tendency for
folks to fail to understand that *their* experience is not necessarily
applicable to everyone (or even anyone) else. Heck, I even do that sometimes
and I *know* better.

I was remembering some of the abuse people like Lee used to take from a few
individuals who just seemed to want to knock him down a peg. And feisty as
Lee is, it got a little ugly sometimes. He was such a great resource,
though.

HG