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Protein Overload?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
17 September 2005
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19 September 2005
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mike
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  1. I weigh about 200 pounds and have been consuming atleast 200 grams of
    protein everyday for a few months now.. My max is usually around 250 grams
    of protein a day. I also lift weights 4 times a week.. 2 hours every
    session.

    2 days ago i was wondering why my energy was totally sapped. I couldnt do
    anything sleep.. I would go out to get my newspaper and that was like a
    whole day's worth of work for me... I was sooooooo tired. I couldnt figure
    out why.. My allergies were under control, i was eating right....drinking
    right... but then i thought about the protein. So i stopped taking it
    for 2 days and now i feel great again.

    Is it possible that too much protein can do this? And how long does protein
    (that is consumed) stay in your system or stomach? Does protein (that is
    consumed) only stay in your system for 24 hours and thats it.. Or can it
    stay in your system and circulate in your system for days? I would really
    appreciate if someone could answer this one. Im thinking now that the
    amount of protein circulating in my system can vary depending on my body's
    needs.

    For example...if i hadnt consumed any protein for days.. and continued to
    workout.. Then as soon as i consume some protein, it will go directly to
    the muscles that are starving for it. So in this case it most likely
    wouldnt stay in my system for days.... But if i had too much protein like i
    mentioned above, then could it stay and circulate in my system longer? I
    would really love to know how many days a maximum amount of protein consumed
    can stay circulating in my body... As my stomach still feels a tad full from
    all the protein in the past..

    any info would be awesome.

    thanks
    mike

  2. "mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I weigh about 200 pounds and have been consuming atleast 200 grams of
    protein everyday for a few months now.. My max is usually around 250
    grams of protein a day. I also lift weights 4 times a week.. 2 hours
    every session.

    2 days ago i was wondering why my energy was totally sapped. I couldnt
    do anything sleep.. I would go out to get my newspaper and that was
    like a whole day's worth of work for me... I was sooooooo tired. I
    couldnt figure out why.. My allergies were under control, i was eating
    right....drinking right... but then i thought about the protein.
    So i stopped taking it for 2 days and now i feel great again.

    Is it possible that too much protein can do this? And how long does
    protein (that is consumed) stay in your system or stomach? Does
    protein (that is consumed) only stay in your system for 24 hours and
    thats it.. Or can it stay in your system and circulate in your system
    for days? I would really appreciate if someone could answer this one.
    Im thinking now that the amount of protein circulating in my system
    can vary depending on my body's needs.

    For example...if i hadnt consumed any protein for days.. and continued
    to workout.. Then as soon as i consume some protein, it will go
    directly to the muscles that are starving for it. So in this case it
    most likely wouldnt stay in my system for days.... But if i had too
    much protein like i mentioned above, then could it stay and circulate
    in my system longer? I would really love to know how many days a
    maximum amount of protein consumed can stay circulating in my body...
    As my stomach still feels a tad full from all the protein in the
    past..

    Unless you're on a serious plan to gain muscle, I'd cut your protein in
    half. The RDA for protein is something like 60 grams per day for an
    adult male - you lift, so up it some, even alot, even double it, but
    especially if taking that much makes you feel lousy, go back to 100 or
    120 grams per day and see what you feel like.

    There is plenty of evidence that suggests the timing of what you eat,
    how protein is combined with carbs and fat, and other similar
    considerations make *much* more difference to whether you build muscle
    or not than does the simple number of grams of protein you eat per day.

    -S-
    http://www.kbnj.com

  3. Steve Freides said:

    "mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I weigh about 200 pounds and have been consuming atleast 200 grams of
    protein everyday for a few months now.. My max is usually around 250
    grams of protein a day. I also lift weights 4 times a week.. 2 hours
    every session.

    2 days ago i was wondering why my energy was totally sapped. I couldnt
    do anything sleep.. I would go out to get my newspaper and that was
    like a whole day's worth of work for me... I was sooooooo tired. I
    couldnt figure out why.. My allergies were under control, i was eating
    right....drinking right... but then i thought about the protein.
    So i stopped taking it for 2 days and now i feel great again.

    Is it possible that too much protein can do this? And how long does
    protein (that is consumed) stay in your system or stomach? Does
    protein (that is consumed) only stay in your system for 24 hours and
    thats it.. Or can it stay in your system and circulate in your system
    for days? I would really appreciate if someone could answer this one.
    Im thinking now that the amount of protein circulating in my system
    can vary depending on my body's needs.

    For example...if i hadnt consumed any protein for days.. and continued
    to workout.. Then as soon as i consume some protein, it will go
    directly to the muscles that are starving for it. So in this case it
    most likely wouldnt stay in my system for days.... But if i had too
    much protein like i mentioned above, then could it stay and circulate
    in my system longer? I would really love to know how many days a
    maximum amount of protein consumed can stay circulating in my body...
    As my stomach still feels a tad full from all the protein in the
    past..

    Unless you're on a serious plan to gain muscle, I'd cut your protein in
    half.

    I think the reason why he is consuming so much protein is because he
    wants to gain muscle. After all he is lifting 2 hours per session,
    four times a week and monitoring his protein intake. I may be wrong
    but I have a suspicion he wants to gain muscle mass.

    Quoted message said:

    The RDA for protein is something like 60 grams per day for an
    adult male - you lift, so up it some, even alot, even double it, but
    especially if taking that much makes you feel lousy, go back to 100 or
    120 grams per day and see what you feel like.

    The RDA is pretty irrelevant since it does not take into consideration
    body weight. If the OP weighs 200 pounds his RDA requirement would
    probably be higher. In any case it is perfectly reasonable for him to
    consume 160-180 grams of protein per day if he wants to gain muscle.

    In any case why on earth would you think there was any connection
    between his protein consumption and feeling lousy by a *sudden*
    sapping of energy.

    There are dozens of possible reasons why one would feel lousy and the
    consumption of 200-250 grams of protein per day would be pretty low on
    the list.

    Quoted message said:


    There is plenty of evidence that suggests the timing of what you eat,
    how protein is combined with carbs and fat, and other similar
    considerations make *much* more difference to whether you build muscle
    or not than does the simple number of grams of protein you eat per day.

    Citations?

    Rich

    Quoted message said:


    -S-
    http://www.kbnj.com

  4. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Steve Freides said:

    "mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I weigh about 200 pounds and have been consuming atleast 200 grams of
    protein everyday for a few months now.. My max is usually around 250
    grams of protein a day. I also lift weights 4 times a week.. 2 hours
    every session.

    2 days ago i was wondering why my energy was totally sapped. I
    couldnt
    do anything sleep.. I would go out to get my newspaper and that was
    like a whole day's worth of work for me... I was sooooooo tired. I
    couldnt figure out why.. My allergies were under control, i was
    eating
    right....drinking right... but then i thought about the protein.
    So i stopped taking it for 2 days and now i feel great again.

    Is it possible that too much protein can do this? And how long does
    protein (that is consumed) stay in your system or stomach? Does
    protein (that is consumed) only stay in your system for 24 hours and
    thats it.. Or can it stay in your system and circulate in your
    system
    for days? I would really appreciate if someone could answer this
    one.
    Im thinking now that the amount of protein circulating in my system
    can vary depending on my body's needs.

    For example...if i hadnt consumed any protein for days.. and
    continued
    to workout.. Then as soon as i consume some protein, it will go
    directly to the muscles that are starving for it. So in this case
    it
    most likely wouldnt stay in my system for days.... But if i had too
    much protein like i mentioned above, then could it stay and
    circulate
    in my system longer? I would really love to know how many days a
    maximum amount of protein consumed can stay circulating in my
    body...
    As my stomach still feels a tad full from all the protein in the
    past..

    Unless you're on a serious plan to gain muscle, I'd cut your protein
    in
    half.

    I think the reason why he is consuming so much protein is because he
    wants to gain muscle. After all he is lifting 2 hours per session,
    four times a week and monitoring his protein intake. I may be wrong
    but I have a suspicion he wants to gain muscle mass.

    Quoted message said:

    The RDA for protein is something like 60 grams per day for an
    adult male - you lift, so up it some, even alot, even double it, but
    especially if taking that much makes you feel lousy, go back to 100 or
    120 grams per day and see what you feel like.

    The RDA is pretty irrelevant since it does not take into consideration
    body weight. If the OP weighs 200 pounds his RDA requirement would
    probably be higher. In any case it is perfectly reasonable for him to
    consume 160-180 grams of protein per day if he wants to gain muscle.

    In any case why on earth would you think there was any connection
    between his protein consumption and feeling lousy by a *sudden*
    sapping of energy.

    There are dozens of possible reasons why one would feel lousy and the
    consumption of 200-250 grams of protein per day would be pretty low on
    the list.

    Quoted message said:


    There is plenty of evidence that suggests the timing of what you eat,
    how protein is combined with carbs and fat, and other similar
    considerations make *much* more difference to whether you build muscle
    or not than does the simple number of grams of protein you eat per
    day.

    Citations?

    <sigh> Plenty, none ready at hand. Anyone else?

    -S-
    http://www.kbnj.com

    Quoted message said:

    Rich

    Quoted message said:


    -S-
    http://www.kbnj.com


  5. Steve Freides said:
    Quoted message said:
    Steve Freides said:


    There is plenty of evidence that suggests the timing of what you eat,
    how protein is combined with carbs and fat, and other similar
    considerations make *much* more difference to whether you build muscle
    or not than does the simple number of grams of protein you eat per
    day.

    Citations?

    <sigh> Plenty, none ready at hand. Anyone else?

    Tipton KD, Wolfe RR. Protein and amino acids for athletes.
    J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.

    It's a review. A number of relevant studies by Tipton and Wolfe, as
    well as other, are cited in the footnotes.

  6. "JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Steve Freides said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >
    >There is plenty of evidence that suggests the timing of what you
    >eat,
    >how protein is combined with carbs and fat, and other similar
    >considerations make *much* more difference to whether you build
    >muscle
    >or not than does the simple number of grams of protein you eat per
    >day.

    Citations?

    <sigh> Plenty, none ready at hand. Anyone else?

    Tipton KD, Wolfe RR. Protein and amino acids for athletes.
    J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.

    It's a review. A number of relevant studies by Tipton and Wolfe, as
    well as other, are cited in the footnotes.

    Here's this, too - found it Googling the title of the article you
    cited - from:

    http://www.sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.html

    !! ... most studies indicate that in order to maintain
    !! protein balance during intense resistance and/or
    !! endurance training, athletes should ingest
    !! approximately 1.3 to 1.8 g protein per kg
    !! body mass per day. This protein intake is
    !! about 1.5 to 2 times the recommended dietary
    !! allowance (RDA) for the normal adult

    For a 200 lb. man,

    ** 200 lbs. = 90 kg.

    ** 90 * (1.3 to 1.8) = 117 to 162 grams of protein per day.

    Like I said, unless something unusual is going on, a well-timed diet
    (that means having some carbs and protein both before and after
    exercise), doubling the RDA is plenty. I've also known a few guys with
    a lot of muscle on their frames who say that 100 grams per day suffices
    for maintenance and they raise it from there if they're trying to add.
    All sounds right to me. I'm small, not heavily muscled, and happy with
    my muscle size, and I find I often have less than the RDA of protein in
    a day, and having 75 grams is a lot for me.

    It's worth mentioning that, at least in my not-so-humble opinion, most
    successful diets involve cycling or alternations of some kind, either
    low carb with periodic high carb refeeds, periods of time of undereating
    mixed with periods of eating whatever you want (several recent rat
    studies, no human studies yet that I'm aware of for this approach) -
    those kinds of approaches seem to me to work better than any
    steady-state diet.

    -S-
    http://www.kbnj.com

  7. JMW said:
    Steve Freides said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >
    >There is plenty of evidence that suggests the timing of what you eat,
    >how protein is combined with carbs and fat, and other similar
    >considerations make *much* more difference to whether you build muscle
    >or not than does the simple number of grams of protein you eat per
    >day.

    Citations?

    <sigh> Plenty, none ready at hand. Anyone else?

    Tipton KD, Wolfe RR. Protein and amino acids for athletes.
    J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.

    It's a review. A number of relevant studies by Tipton and Wolfe, as
    well as other, are cited in the footnotes.

    Thanx for the citation. See my comments below the abstract.

    Protein and amino acids for athletes.
    J Sports Sci 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79 (ISSN: 0264-0414)
    Tipton KD; Wolfe RR
    Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Shriner's
    Hospital for Children, 815 Market Street, Galveston, TX 77550, USA.
    [email hidden].
    Information from Industry
    Advertisement - The landmark Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation
    (HOPE) study demonstrated sustained clinical benefit with an ACE
    inhibitor.
    Review findings and consider important implications for patient care.

    Other Product InfoSites
    The main determinants of an athlete's protein needs are their training
    regime and habitual nutrient intake. Most athletes ingest sufficient
    protein in their habitual diet. Additional protein will confer only a
    minimal, albeit arguably important, additional advantage. Given
    sufficient energy intake, lean body mass can be maintained within a
    wide range of protein intakes. Since there is limited evidence for
    harmful effects of a high protein intake and there is a metabolic
    rationale for the efficacy of an increase in protein, if muscle
    hypertrophy is the goal, a higher protein intake within the context of
    an athlete's overall dietary requirements may be beneficial. However,
    there are few convincing outcome data to indicate that the ingestion
    of a high amount of protein (2-3 g x kg(-1) BW x day(-1), where BW =
    body weight) is necessary. Current literature suggests that it may be
    too simplistic to rely on recommendations of a particular amount of
    protein per day. Acute studies suggest that for any given amount of
    protein, the metabolic response is dependent on other factors,
    including the timing of ingestion in relation to exercise and/or other
    nutrients, the composition of ingested amino acids and the type of
    protein.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    This abstract certainly does not give compelling evidence that you
    will get a much greater muscle mass response by the timing of
    ingestion of protein in relation to exercise. In fact it only says
    acute studies "suggest" and does not even specify the nature of the
    metabolic response and how different it would be if you ingested the
    protein at a different time. It is difficult to gauge the significance
    without seeing the original studies that this review article is based
    upon.

    I could not find any footnotes in the abstract on Medline. Do you have
    any original articles that look at this in athletes?? Thanx.

    Rich

  8. Steve Freides said:

    "JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Steve Freides said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >>
    >>There is plenty of evidence that suggests the timing of what you
    >>eat,
    >>how protein is combined with carbs and fat, and other similar
    >>considerations make *much* more difference to whether you build
    >>muscle
    >>or not than does the simple number of grams of protein you eat per
    >>day.
    >
    > Citations?

    <sigh> Plenty, none ready at hand. Anyone else?

    Tipton KD, Wolfe RR. Protein and amino acids for athletes.
    J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.

    It's a review. A number of relevant studies by Tipton and Wolfe, as
    well as other, are cited in the footnotes.

    Here's this, too - found it Googling the title of the article you
    cited - from:

    http://www.sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.html

    !! ... most studies indicate that in order to maintain
    !! protein balance during intense resistance and/or
    !! endurance training, athletes should ingest
    !! approximately 1.3 to 1.8 g protein per kg
    !! body mass per day. This protein intake is
    !! about 1.5 to 2 times the recommended dietary
    !! allowance (RDA) for the normal adult

    For a 200 lb. man,

    ** 200 lbs. = 90 kg.

    ** 90 * (1.3 to 1.8) = 117 to 162 grams of protein per day.

    Like I said, unless something unusual is going on, a well-timed diet
    (that means having some carbs and protein both before and after
    exercise), doubling the RDA is plenty.

    I don't disagree that consuming more than 160 grams of protein is
    going to significantly help to increase one's muscle mass in a 200
    pound male. But if one is trying to gain muscle mass it is probably
    best to err on the high side (which is why I suggested 160-180 for the
    OP) since it will do no harm.

    The important point is that it is unlikely that his protein
    consumption has anything to do with his feeling lousy which was the
    concern of the OP as indicated by the abstract which was cite by the
    other poster.

    Quoted message said:

    It's worth mentioning that, at least in my not-so-humble opinion, most
    successful diets involve cycling or alternations of some kind, either
    low carb with periodic high carb refeeds, periods of time of undereating
    mixed with periods of eating whatever you want (several recent rat
    studies, no human studies yet that I'm aware of for this approach) -
    those kinds of approaches seem to me to work better than any
    steady-state diet.

    Most successful diets toward what end?? Your point above is not clear.
    Work better for "what" compared to steady state diet??

    Rich

  9. Steve Freides said:

    "JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Steve Freides said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >>
    >>There is plenty of evidence that suggests the timing of what you
    >>eat,
    >>how protein is combined with carbs and fat, and other similar
    >>considerations make *much* more difference to whether you build
    >>muscle
    >>or not than does the simple number of grams of protein you eat per
    >>day.
    >
    > Citations?

    <sigh> Plenty, none ready at hand. Anyone else?

    Tipton KD, Wolfe RR. Protein and amino acids for athletes.
    J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.

    It's a review. A number of relevant studies by Tipton and Wolfe, as
    well as other, are cited in the footnotes.

    Here's this, too - found it Googling the title of the article you
    cited - from:

    http://www.sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.html

    !! ... most studies indicate that in order to maintain
    !! protein balance during intense resistance and/or
    !! endurance training, athletes should ingest
    !! approximately 1.3 to 1.8 g protein per kg
    !! body mass per day. This protein intake is
    !! about 1.5 to 2 times the recommended dietary
    !! allowance (RDA) for the normal adult

    For a 200 lb. man,

    ** 200 lbs. = 90 kg.

    ** 90 * (1.3 to 1.8) = 117 to 162 grams of protein per day.

    Like I said, unless something unusual is going on, a well-timed diet
    (that means having some carbs and protein both before and after
    exercise), doubling the RDA is plenty. I've also known a few guys with
    a lot of muscle on their frames who say that 100 grams per day suffices
    for maintenance and they raise it from there if they're trying to add.
    All sounds right to me. I'm small, not heavily muscled, and happy with
    my muscle size, and I find I often have less than the RDA of protein in
    a day, and having 75 grams is a lot for me.

    However, the paradigm may shift depending on whether or not one is in
    a hypocaloric state, attempting to lose fat but spare muscle mass.
    Stuart Phillips, a researcher at McMasters University in Ontario (same
    institution as Mark Tarnopolsky) opined that strength athletes
    probably need only 12% to 15% of their caloric intake in protein.
    However, "a recommendation for athletes attempting to spare protein
    (i.e., muscle mass) during hypoenergetic periods would include the
    advice to perform resistance exercise, consume a higher than average
    amount of energy intake as protein (say 20% to 25% versus 15%), and
    adequate quantities of carbohydrate to try and keep muscle glycogen
    relatively high (for performance), and support protein retention."

    Phillips SM. Protein requirements and supplementation in strength
    sports. Nutrition. 2004 Jul-Aug;20(7-8):689, 693.

  10. Quoted message said:
    JMW said:
    Steve Freides said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >>
    >>There is plenty of evidence that suggests the timing of what you eat,
    >>how protein is combined with carbs and fat, and other similar
    >>considerations make *much* more difference to whether you build muscle
    >>or not than does the simple number of grams of protein you eat per
    >>day.
    >
    > Citations?

    <sigh> Plenty, none ready at hand. Anyone else?

    Tipton KD, Wolfe RR. Protein and amino acids for athletes.
    J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.

    It's a review. A number of relevant studies by Tipton and Wolfe, as
    well as other, are cited in the footnotes.

    Thanx for the citation. See my comments below the abstract.

    Protein and amino acids for athletes.
    J Sports Sci 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79 (ISSN: 0264-0414)
    Tipton KD; Wolfe RR
    Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Shriner's
    Hospital for Children, 815 Market Street, Galveston, TX 77550, USA.
    [email hidden].
    Information from Industry
    Advertisement - The landmark Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation
    (HOPE) study demonstrated sustained clinical benefit with an ACE
    inhibitor.
    Review findings and consider important implications for patient care.

    Other Product InfoSites
    The main determinants of an athlete's protein needs are their training
    regime and habitual nutrient intake. Most athletes ingest sufficient
    protein in their habitual diet. Additional protein will confer only a
    minimal, albeit arguably important, additional advantage. Given
    sufficient energy intake, lean body mass can be maintained within a
    wide range of protein intakes. Since there is limited evidence for
    harmful effects of a high protein intake and there is a metabolic
    rationale for the efficacy of an increase in protein, if muscle
    hypertrophy is the goal, a higher protein intake within the context of
    an athlete's overall dietary requirements may be beneficial. However,
    there are few convincing outcome data to indicate that the ingestion
    of a high amount of protein (2-3 g x kg(-1) BW x day(-1), where BW =
    body weight) is necessary. Current literature suggests that it may be
    too simplistic to rely on recommendations of a particular amount of
    protein per day. Acute studies suggest that for any given amount of
    protein, the metabolic response is dependent on other factors,
    including the timing of ingestion in relation to exercise and/or other
    nutrients, the composition of ingested amino acids and the type of
    protein.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    This abstract certainly does not give compelling evidence that you
    will get a much greater muscle mass response by the timing of
    ingestion of protein in relation to exercise. In fact it only says
    acute studies "suggest" and does not even specify the nature of the
    metabolic response and how different it would be if you ingested the
    protein at a different time. It is difficult to gauge the significance
    without seeing the original studies that this review article is based
    upon.

    Unless something new has cropped up there is no compelling evidence
    that the timing (within reason) of when you eat is particularly
    critical to hypertrophy.

    --
    Is this thing on?

  11. Quoted message said:

    This abstract certainly does not give compelling evidence that you
    will get a much greater muscle mass response by the timing of
    ingestion of protein in relation to exercise. In fact it only says
    acute studies "suggest" and does not even specify the nature of the
    metabolic response and how different it would be if you ingested the
    protein at a different time. It is difficult to gauge the significance
    without seeing the original studies that this review article is based
    upon.

    I could not find any footnotes in the abstract on Medline. Do you have
    any original articles that look at this in athletes?? Thanx.

    Hey, knock yourself out:

    Tipton, K.D., Ferrando, A.A., Phillips, S.M., Doyle, D., Jr. and
    Wolfe, R.R. (1999). Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle
    from orally administered amino acids. American Journal of Physiology,
    276, E628-E634.

    Tipton, K.D., Rasmussen, B.B., Miller, S.L., Wolf, S.E.,
    Owens-Stovall, S.K., Petrini, B.E. and Wolfe, R.R. (2001). Timing of
    amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle
    to resistance exercise. American Journal of Physiology, 281,
    E197-E206.

    Tipton, K.D., Borsheim, E., Wolf, S.E., Sanford, A.P. and Wolfe, R.R.
    (2003). Acute response of net muscle protein balance reflects 24-h
    balance after exercise and amino acid ingestion. American Journal of
    Physiology, 284, E76-E89.

  12. Joe Humble said:
    Quoted message said:
    JMW said:

    "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    ><[email hidden]> wrote:
    >> "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>There is plenty of evidence that suggests the timing of what you eat,
    >>>how protein is combined with carbs and fat, and other similar
    >>>considerations make *much* more difference to whether you build muscle
    >>>or not than does the simple number of grams of protein you eat per
    >>>day.
    >>
    >> Citations?
    >
    ><sigh> Plenty, none ready at hand. Anyone else?

    Tipton KD, Wolfe RR. Protein and amino acids for athletes.
    J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.

    It's a review. A number of relevant studies by Tipton and Wolfe, as
    well as other, are cited in the footnotes.

    Thanx for the citation. See my comments below the abstract.

    Protein and amino acids for athletes.
    J Sports Sci 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79 (ISSN: 0264-0414)
    Tipton KD; Wolfe RR
    Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Shriner's
    Hospital for Children, 815 Market Street, Galveston, TX 77550, USA.
    [email hidden].
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    The main determinants of an athlete's protein needs are their training
    regime and habitual nutrient intake. Most athletes ingest sufficient
    protein in their habitual diet. Additional protein will confer only a
    minimal, albeit arguably important, additional advantage. Given
    sufficient energy intake, lean body mass can be maintained within a
    wide range of protein intakes. Since there is limited evidence for
    harmful effects of a high protein intake and there is a metabolic
    rationale for the efficacy of an increase in protein, if muscle
    hypertrophy is the goal, a higher protein intake within the context of
    an athlete's overall dietary requirements may be beneficial. However,
    there are few convincing outcome data to indicate that the ingestion
    of a high amount of protein (2-3 g x kg(-1) BW x day(-1), where BW =
    body weight) is necessary. Current literature suggests that it may be
    too simplistic to rely on recommendations of a particular amount of
    protein per day. Acute studies suggest that for any given amount of
    protein, the metabolic response is dependent on other factors,
    including the timing of ingestion in relation to exercise and/or other
    nutrients, the composition of ingested amino acids and the type of
    protein.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    This abstract certainly does not give compelling evidence that you
    will get a much greater muscle mass response by the timing of
    ingestion of protein in relation to exercise. In fact it only says
    acute studies "suggest" and does not even specify the nature of the
    metabolic response and how different it would be if you ingested the
    protein at a different time. It is difficult to gauge the significance
    without seeing the original studies that this review article is based
    upon.

    Unless something new has cropped up there is no compelling evidence
    that the timing (within reason) of when you eat is particularly
    critical to hypertrophy.

    For several decades, there was no "compelling evidence" in the
    literature that anabolic steroids increased strength and muscle mass.
    If you're looking for "compelling evidence," you're going to be behind
    the curve.

  13. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Steve Freides said:


    For a 200 lb. man,

    ** 200 lbs. = 90 kg.

    ** 90 * (1.3 to 1.8) = 117 to 162 grams of protein per day.

    Like I said, unless something unusual is going on, a well-timed diet
    (that means having some carbs and protein both before and after
    exercise), doubling the RDA is plenty.

    I don't disagree that consuming more than 160 grams of protein is
    going to significantly help to increase one's muscle mass in a 200
    pound male. But if one is trying to gain muscle mass it is probably
    best to err on the high side (which is why I suggested 160-180 for the
    OP) since it will do no harm.

    Anyone know how much protein Arnold Schwarzenegger consumed daily in his
    prime? Or any other well known bodybuilders?

    Bill

    Quoted message said:

    The important point is that it is unlikely that his protein
    consumption has anything to do with his feeling lousy which was the
    concern of the OP as indicated by the abstract which was cite by the
    other poster.

    Quoted message said:

    It's worth mentioning that, at least in my not-so-humble opinion, most
    successful diets involve cycling or alternations of some kind, either
    low carb with periodic high carb refeeds, periods of time of undereating
    mixed with periods of eating whatever you want (several recent rat
    studies, no human studies yet that I'm aware of for this approach) -
    those kinds of approaches seem to me to work better than any
    steady-state diet.

    Most successful diets toward what end?? Your point above is not clear.
    Work better for "what" compared to steady state diet??

    Rich

  14. Title: Acute response of net muscle protein balance reflects 24-h balance after
    exercise and amino acid ingestion.

    Researchers: Tipton KD, Borsheim E, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.

    Institution: Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children, Galveston, Texas.

    Source: Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Jan;284(1):E76-89.

    Summary: The purpose of this study was to determine if the acute anabolic muscle
    response to resistance exercise and essential amino acids (EAA) reflects the
    response over 24 h.

    Methods: Seven subjects participated in the following two 24-h studies: 1)
    resting (REST) and 2) rest plus resistance exercise and consumption of pre- and
    post essential amino acids (ES). Net balance (NB) across the leg was determined
    for four amino acids. [(13)C(6)] phenylalanine was infused to determine mixed
    muscle fractional synthetic rate (FSR).

    Results: Twenty-four-hour FSR was significantly greater for ES than for REST (P
    = 0.003). Exchange of phenylalanine across the leg was -194 74 (SE) mg for ES
    and -371 88 mg for REST (P = 0.07) over 24 h and 229 42 mg (ES) and 28 15 mg
    (REST; P < 0.01) over 3 h corresponding to exercise and EAA consumption for ES.
    The difference in phenylalanine exchange between REST and ES was not different
    for measurements over 24 and 3 h. Increases in NB during ES were primarily the
    result of increases in protein synthesis. Results for other amino acids were
    similar.

    Conclusion: The acute anabolic response of muscle to EAA intake and exercise is
    additive to the response at rest and thus reflects the 24-h response.

    Discussion: This study may seem confusing at first, but once you know the
    background assumptions that gave them the idea to perform this study, it all
    makes sense.

    It is known that as you increase your daily protein intake, your body will
    compensate by increasing protein losses during the night.(1-4) So there is a
    diurnal regulation of protein balance. This is the reason why simply eating more
    protein doesn’t make you bigger and bigger. The more protein you eat, the more
    protein your body gets rid of while you sleep.

    Despite this observation, it is also known that carefully timing your protein
    intake around your training can significantly increase protein synthesis in
    muscle tissue. (5,6) So, it begs the question, does the anabolic effect of pre
    and post exercise protein supplementation lead to a net increase in muscle
    protein? The results of this study confirm that it does!

    The increased protein synthesis that occurs with pre-and post exercise protein
    supplementation lead to durable increases in muscle protein over a 24 hour
    period, even in light of the diurnal regulation of whole body protein balance.
    The nighttime protein losses did not reflect the additional protein taken in as
    a pre- and post workout supplement. Thus the acute stimulation of muscle protein
    by exercise and protein ingestion is additive to the balance that normally
    occurs in resting muscle.

    This study only enforces the importance of proper protein supplementation. By
    proper I don’t mean just quantity, I mean using protein supplements in such a
    way that ensures the greatest anabolic response. Normally, I try to avoid
    mentioning specific supplements when discussing research, but Primer and Driver
    are specifically designed to maximize the anabolic effects of training and
    protein supplementation. If you are using HST and not using Primer pre-workout
    and Driver post workout, you are missing out on significant gains. Ok, I just
    had to get that off my chest.

    References:

    1: Millward DJ. Metabolic demands for amino acids and the human dietary
    requirement: Millward and rRvers (1988) revisited. J Nutr. 1998 Dec;128(12
    Suppl):2563S-2576S.

    2: Quevedo MR, Price GM, Halliday D, Pacy PJ, Millward DJ. Nitrogen homoeostasis
    in man: diurnal changes in nitrogen excretion, leucine oxidation and whole body
    leucine kinetics during a reduction from a high to a moderate protein intake.
    Clin Sci (Lond). 1994 Feb;86(2):185-93.

    3: Price GM, Halliday D, Pacy PJ, Quevedo MR, Millward DJ. Nitrogen homeostasis
    in man: influence of protein intake on the amplitude of diurnal cycling of body
    nitrogen. Clin Sci (Lond). 1994 Jan;86(1):91-102.

    4: Pacy PJ, Price GM, Halliday D, Quevedo MR, Millward DJ. Nitrogen homeostasis
    in man: the diurnal responses of protein synthesis and degradation and amino
    acid oxidation to diets with increasing protein intakes. Clin Sci (Lond). 1994
    Jan;86(1):103-16.

    5: Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE,
    Wolfe RR. Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response
    of muscle to resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001
    Aug;281(2):E197-206.

    6: Tipton KD, Wolfe RR. Exercise, protein metabolism, and muscle growth. Int J
    Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Mar;11(1):109-32.

  15. T said:

    Title: Acute response of net muscle protein balance reflects 24-h balance after
    exercise and amino acid ingestion.

    Researchers: Tipton KD, Borsheim E, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.

    Institution: Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children, Galveston, Texas.

    Source: Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Jan;284(1):E76-89.
    [snip]

    Discussion: This study may seem confusing at first, but once you know the
    background assumptions that gave them the idea to perform this study, it all
    makes sense.

    It is known that as you increase your daily protein intake, your body will
    compensate by increasing protein losses during the night.(1-4) So there is a
    diurnal regulation of protein balance. This is the reason why simply eating more
    protein doesn’t make you bigger and bigger. The more protein you eat, the more
    protein your body gets rid of while you sleep.

    Despite this observation, it is also known that carefully timing your protein
    intake around your training can significantly increase protein synthesis in
    muscle tissue. (5,6) So, it begs the question, does the anabolic effect of pre
    and post exercise protein supplementation lead to a net increase in muscle
    protein? The results of this study confirm that it does!

    In all fairness, though, this study doesn't completely answer the real
    question. It compares:

    daily diet + protein pulse + resistance training
    vs.
    daily diet + bed rest

    It does not compare:

    daily diet + protein pulse + resistance training
    vs.
    daily diet + resistance training

    BTW, if you're going to repeat Bryan Haycock's articles verbatim, you
    really should attribute it:

    http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/HSreport/iss08/index.html#art_1

  16. JMW said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This abstract certainly does not give compelling evidence that you
    will get a much greater muscle mass response by the timing of
    ingestion of protein in relation to exercise. In fact it only says
    acute studies "suggest" and does not even specify the nature of the
    metabolic response and how different it would be if you ingested the
    protein at a different time. It is difficult to gauge the significance
    without seeing the original studies that this review article is based
    upon.

    Unless something new has cropped up there is no compelling evidence
    that the timing (within reason) of when you eat is particularly
    critical to hypertrophy.

    For several decades, there was no "compelling evidence" in the
    literature that anabolic steroids increased strength and muscle mass.
    If you're looking for "compelling evidence," you're going to be behind
    the curve.

    in terms of steroid use there was compelling real-world evidence and a
    lot of it. for hypertrophy there is compelling real-world evidence
    that the amount of calories matters but I don't think there is
    anything close to that level of importance in terms of when those
    calories are consumed. again this is within reason and obviously if
    you eat nothing for 24 hours that is going to hurt you but whether you
    eat five minutes after your workout or two hours after I personally
    don't think makes much of a difference. it probably matters at the
    margins but then again almost everything matters at the margins.

    --
    Is this thing on?

  17. Joe Humble said:
    JMW said:
    Quoted message said:

    >This abstract certainly does not give compelling evidence that you
    >will get a much greater muscle mass response by the timing of
    >ingestion of protein in relation to exercise. In fact it only says
    >acute studies "suggest" and does not even specify the nature of the
    >metabolic response and how different it would be if you ingested the
    >protein at a different time. It is difficult to gauge the significance
    >without seeing the original studies that this review article is based
    >upon.

    Unless something new has cropped up there is no compelling evidence
    that the timing (within reason) of when you eat is particularly
    critical to hypertrophy.

    For several decades, there was no "compelling evidence" in the
    literature that anabolic steroids increased strength and muscle mass.
    If you're looking for "compelling evidence," you're going to be behind
    the curve.

    in terms of steroid use there was compelling real-world evidence and a
    lot of it. for hypertrophy there is compelling real-world evidence
    that the amount of calories matters but I don't think there is
    anything close to that level of importance in terms of when those
    calories are consumed.

    We weren't talking about gross calories. We were talking about
    calories from protein. Please try to keep up.

    BTW, the need for adequate protein in strength athletes was recognized
    by "compelling real-world" (i.e., anecdotal) evidence long before
    anabolic steroids came into vogue. The current issue is timing. And
    timing may not affect only gross skeletal muscle protein accretion,
    but also nutrient partitioning. Sure if you train and eat like a hog
    all day long, you will gain muscle, but how much fat will you gain,
    too? I seem to recall someone getting pretty bloated on a diet of
    home-cooked trenbelone acetate and Ben & Jerry's Chunky Monkey.

  18. On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 05:27:36 GMT, "Bill" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Steve Freides said:


    For a 200 lb. man,

    ** 200 lbs. = 90 kg.

    ** 90 * (1.3 to 1.8) = 117 to 162 grams of protein per day.

    Like I said, unless something unusual is going on, a well-timed diet
    (that means having some carbs and protein both before and after
    exercise), doubling the RDA is plenty.

    I don't disagree that consuming more than 160 grams of protein is
    going to significantly help to increase one's muscle mass in a 200
    pound male. But if one is trying to gain muscle mass it is probably
    best to err on the high side (which is why I suggested 160-180 for the
    OP) since it will do no harm.

    Anyone know how much protein Arnold Schwarzenegger consumed daily in his
    prime? Or any other well known bodybuilders?

    Don't know but since he was likely taking anabolic steroids, he
    probably could handle much larger amounts of protein to maximize
    muscle gains.

    To repeat: The OP was concerned that his lousy feeling was somehow
    connected to consuming 200-250 grams of protein per day (protein
    overload) . There is no credible evidence to suggest that this is the
    case. If he continues to feel lousy it would behoove him to seek
    medical attention.

    Rich

  19. Joe Humble said:

    again this is within reason and obviously if you eat nothing for 24
    hours that is going to hurt you but whether you eat five minutes
    after your workout or two hours after I personally don't think makes
    much of a difference.

    How about up to 2 hours after workout vs. 10 hours? Perhaps if you
    only eat once in 24 hours that's what would matter the most. But I
    don't have a twin to verify.

  20. orOn 18 Sep 2005 18:07:16 GMT, DZ

    Quoted message said:
    Joe Humble said:

    again this is within reason and obviously if you eat nothing for 24
    hours that is going to hurt you but whether you eat five minutes
    after your workout or two hours after I personally don't think makes
    much of a difference.

    How about up to 2 hours after workout vs. 10 hours? Perhaps if you
    only eat once in 24 hours that's what would matter the most. But I
    don't have a twin to verify.

    as with most things, if you go to an absurd extreme you'll probably do
    yourself a disservice. It almost certainly makes sense to eat right
    after a workout if for no other reason than exertion makes one hungry!

    --
    Is this thing on?

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