post-2004 supplements

In article <[email hidden]>,

Karnov said:

Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements that are
legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored] out there.
I
used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of 545 to 585);
just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.

Karnov

Food. ;-)

Also, lift heavy things, put them down.

Repeat.

Then sleep.
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Karnov said:

Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements that are
legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored] out there.
I
used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of 545 to 585);
just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.

Karnov

Food. ;-)

Also, lift heavy things, put them down.

Repeat.

Then sleep.

No, no, tell us the REAL answer, you meanyhead.

Dally

Karnov said:

Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements that are
legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored] out there. I
used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of 545 to 585);
just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.

6-OXO (aka androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione or 3,6,17-androstenetrione or
6-ketoandrostenedione), has been shown to substantially increase free
testosterone levels; it has also been reported to have yielded modest
improvements in strength. However, according to my source, it seems
to have the greatest effect on those who have not previously used AAS
or prohormones.

In article <[email hidden]>,

JMW said:

Karnov said:

Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements that are
legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored] out
there. I
used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of 545 to 585);
just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.

6-OXO (aka androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione or 3,6,17-androstenetrione or
6-ketoandrostenedione), has been shown to substantially increase free
testosterone levels; it has also been reported to have yielded modest
improvements in strength. However, according to my source, it seems
to have the greatest effect on those who have not previously used AAS
or prohormones.

John,

How do you feel about DHEA?
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

JMW said:

Karnov said:

Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements that are
legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored] out
there. I
used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of 545 to 585);
just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.

6-OXO (aka androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione or 3,6,17-androstenetrione or
6-ketoandrostenedione), has been shown to substantially increase free
testosterone levels; it has also been reported to have yielded modest
improvements in strength. However, according to my source, it seems
to have the greatest effect on those who have not previously used AAS
or prohormones.

John,

How do you feel about DHEA?

DHEA is good for old folks who have experienced decreased endogenous
levels and would like to increase their levels to the physiological
levels of a younger person, thus improving downstream conversion to
testosterone and estrogen. Naturally, the conversion enzymes will also
be a limiting factor.

Dosing DHEA to achieve substantial supraphysiological levels in hopes
of downstream conversion to androstenedione, then to testosterone, is
worthless. I seem to recall that, to the extent that it does increase
testosterone, most of the increase is in skin tissue, where the T
converts to DHT and gives you zits.

In other words, the side effects of AAS without the benefits.

In article <[email hidden]>,

JMW said:

Karnov said:

Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements that are
legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored] out
there. I
used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of 545 to 585);
just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.

6-OXO (aka androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione or 3,6,17-androstenetrione or
6-ketoandrostenedione), has been shown to substantially increase free
testosterone levels;

substantially?

Quoted message said:

it has also been reported to have yielded modest
improvements in strength. However, according to my source, it seems
to have the greatest effect on those who have not previously used AAS
or prohormones.

Used alone, feedback is not great. Seems more an effective anti E used
post cycle then as a stand alone supp. None the less, still better then
most of what's out there.

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

In article <[email hidden]>,

JMW said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

JMW said:

Karnov <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements that
>are
>legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored] out
>there. I
>used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of 545 to
>585);
>just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.

6-OXO (aka androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione or 3,6,17-androstenetrione or
6-ketoandrostenedione), has been shown to substantially increase free
testosterone levels; it has also been reported to have yielded modest
improvements in strength. However, according to my source, it seems
to have the greatest effect on those who have not previously used AAS
or prohormones.

John,

How do you feel about DHEA?

DHEA is good for old folks who have experienced decreased endogenous
levels and would like to increase their levels to the physiological
levels of a younger person, thus improving downstream conversion to
testosterone and estrogen. Naturally, the conversion enzymes will also
be a limiting factor.

Dosing DHEA to achieve substantial supraphysiological levels in hopes
of downstream conversion to androstenedione, then to testosterone, is
worthless. I seem to recall that, to the extent that it does increase
testosterone, most of the increase is in skin tissue, where the T
converts to DHT and gives you zits.

In other words, the side effects of AAS without the benefits.

Cool.
Please send this info to all the senators so they will stop trying to
outlaw it. ;-)

They keep trying to make it out to be another Testosterone precursor
like the ones they just banned.
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

JMW said:

Karnov <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements

that are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored]

out

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>there. I
>used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of 545

to 585);

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.

6-OXO (aka androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione or 3,6,17-androstenetrione or
6-ketoandrostenedione), has been shown to substantially increase free
testosterone levels; it has also been reported to have yielded modest
improvements in strength. However, according to my source, it seems
to have the greatest effect on those who have not previously used AAS
or prohormones.

John,

How do you feel about DHEA?

DHEA is good for old folks who have experienced decreased endogenous
levels and would like to increase their levels to the physiological
levels of a younger person, thus improving downstream conversion to
testosterone and estrogen. Naturally, the conversion enzymes will also
be a limiting factor.

Dosing DHEA to achieve substantial supraphysiological levels in hopes
of downstream conversion to androstenedione, then to testosterone, is
worthless. I seem to recall that, to the extent that it does increase
testosterone, most of the increase is in skin tissue, where the T
converts to DHT and gives you zits.

In other words, the side effects of AAS without the benefits.

DHEA is excellent for PCT of prohormones....

John said:

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

JMW <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Karnov <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >
> >Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements

that are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored]

out

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >there. I
> >used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of 545

to 585);

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.
>
> 6-OXO (aka androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione or 3,6,17-androstenetrione or
> 6-ketoandrostenedione), has been shown to substantially increase free
> testosterone levels; it has also been reported to have yielded modest
> improvements in strength. However, according to my source, it seems
> to have the greatest effect on those who have not previously used AAS
> or prohormones.

John,

How do you feel about DHEA?

DHEA is good for old folks who have experienced decreased endogenous
levels and would like to increase their levels to the physiological
levels of a younger person, thus improving downstream conversion to
testosterone and estrogen. Naturally, the conversion enzymes will also
be a limiting factor.

Dosing DHEA to achieve substantial supraphysiological levels in hopes
of downstream conversion to androstenedione, then to testosterone, is
worthless. I seem to recall that, to the extent that it does increase
testosterone, most of the increase is in skin tissue, where the T
converts to DHT and gives you zits.

In other words, the side effects of AAS without the benefits.

DHEA is excellent for PCT of prohormones....

WTF?

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John said:

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
> JMW <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > Karnov <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > >
> > >Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements

that are

Quoted message said:

> > >legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored]

out

Quoted message said:

> > >there. I
> > >used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of

545

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to 585);

Quoted message said:

> > >just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.
> >
> > 6-OXO (aka androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione or 3,6,17-androstenetrione

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > 6-ketoandrostenedione), has been shown to substantially increase

free

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > testosterone levels; it has also been reported to have yielded

modest

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > improvements in strength. However, according to my source, it

seems

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > to have the greatest effect on those who have not previously used

AAS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > or prohormones.
>
> John,
>
> How do you feel about DHEA?

DHEA is good for old folks who have experienced decreased endogenous
levels and would like to increase their levels to the physiological
levels of a younger person, thus improving downstream conversion to
testosterone and estrogen. Naturally, the conversion enzymes will also
be a limiting factor.

Dosing DHEA to achieve substantial supraphysiological levels in hopes
of downstream conversion to androstenedione, then to testosterone, is
worthless. I seem to recall that, to the extent that it does increase
testosterone, most of the increase is in skin tissue, where the T
converts to DHT and gives you zits.

In other words, the side effects of AAS without the benefits.

DHEA is excellent for PCT of prohormones....

WTF?

To help get natural test going again after a cycle? No?

John said:

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John said:

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
> > JMW <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > Karnov <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements
that are
> > > >legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored]
out
> > > >there. I
> > > >used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of

545

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to 585);
> > > >just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.
> > >
> > > 6-OXO (aka androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione or 3,6,17-androstenetrione

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > 6-ketoandrostenedione), has been shown to substantially increase

free

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > testosterone levels; it has also been reported to have yielded

modest

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > improvements in strength. However, according to my source, it

seems

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > to have the greatest effect on those who have not previously used

AAS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > or prohormones.
> >
> > John,
> >
> > How do you feel about DHEA?
>
> DHEA is good for old folks who have experienced decreased endogenous
> levels and would like to increase their levels to the physiological
> levels of a younger person, thus improving downstream conversion to
> testosterone and estrogen. Naturally, the conversion enzymes will also
> be a limiting factor.
>
> Dosing DHEA to achieve substantial supraphysiological levels in hopes
> of downstream conversion to androstenedione, then to testosterone, is
> worthless. I seem to recall that, to the extent that it does increase
> testosterone, most of the increase is in skin tissue, where the T
> converts to DHT and gives you zits.
>
> In other words, the side effects of AAS without the benefits.

DHEA is excellent for PCT of prohormones....

WTF?

To help get natural test going again after a cycle? No?

What is "PCT"?

And DHEA is just a substrate steroid. Downstream, it will convert to
other steroids, including estradiol. The problem created by starting
and ceasing exogenous prohormones or AAS is not a lack of substrate,
but rather, counteracting the negative feedback effect that was
created during the cycle. Something like an aromtase inhibitor is
better for normalizing endogenous steroid levels, not so much by
cranking up natural testosterone levels, but rather, by preventing its
conversion to estradiol.

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John said:

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"John" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>>
>> OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
>> > JMW <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> > > Karnov <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >Does anyone have any direct experience using effective

supplements

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>that are
>> > > >legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the

[censored]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>out
>> > > >there. I
>> > > >used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of

545

Quoted message said:

>to 585);
>> > > >just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.
>> > >
>> > > 6-OXO (aka androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione or

3,6,17-androstenetrione

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or

Quoted message said:

>> > > 6-ketoandrostenedione), has been shown to substantially increase

free

Quoted message said:

>> > > testosterone levels; it has also been reported to have yielded

modest

Quoted message said:

>> > > improvements in strength. However, according to my source, it

seems

Quoted message said:

>> > > to have the greatest effect on those who have not previously

used

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AAS

Quoted message said:

>> > > or prohormones.
>> >
>> > John,
>> >
>> > How do you feel about DHEA?
>>
>> DHEA is good for old folks who have experienced decreased endogenous
>> levels and would like to increase their levels to the physiological
>> levels of a younger person, thus improving downstream conversion to
>> testosterone and estrogen. Naturally, the conversion enzymes will

also

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> be a limiting factor.
>>
>> Dosing DHEA to achieve substantial supraphysiological levels in

hopes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> of downstream conversion to androstenedione, then to testosterone,

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> worthless. I seem to recall that, to the extent that it does

increase

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> testosterone, most of the increase is in skin tissue, where the T
>> converts to DHT and gives you zits.
>>
>> In other words, the side effects of AAS without the benefits.
>
>DHEA is excellent for PCT of prohormones....

WTF?

To help get natural test going again after a cycle? No?

What is "PCT"?

And DHEA is just a substrate steroid. Downstream, it will convert to
other steroids, including estradiol. The problem created by starting
and ceasing exogenous prohormones or AAS is not a lack of substrate,
but rather, counteracting the negative feedback effect that was
created during the cycle. Something like an aromtase inhibitor is
better for normalizing endogenous steroid levels, not so much by
cranking up natural testosterone levels, but rather, by preventing its
conversion to estradiol.

Sorry. PCT = post cycle therapy (the regimen following a steroid or
prohormone cycle to get things back to normal).

Thanks for the feedback guys.

As far as lifting hard and eating right, I'm already doing that. I've been
working out for 11 years now without ever missing a workout. I started off 6'0
140 and now I'm at 6'0 205 8% BF. Gains are very slow no matter how much I eat
& lift at this stage of the game. After 10 years totally natural, 1-AD was
impressive for me (40 lbs in deadlift and 5lbs in muscle in 2 months is a lot
for me). I'm giving 6-0X0 a shot & will let you know. I already have the
feeling that it's working after just one day, but I'll have numbers to back that
up in a couple days.

Karnov

Quoted message said:

feeling that it's working after just one day, but I'll have numbers to back that
up in a couple days.

er weeks

Karnov said:

Does anyone have any direct experience using effective supplements that are
legally available now? It's so hard to tell with all the [censored] out there. I
used to use 1-AD and it definitely worked (went from 1RM D/L of 545 to 585);
just wondering if anything else out there now is effective.

Karnov

i'm surprised no one mentioned ALRI's "Max LMG". it's a progestin
(legal), kind of like dht, somewhat suppressive (in reference to
libido), very few sides (if any), dry gains (not estrogenic). from the
feedback it is very mild and in first-time users (not experienced AAS
users) gives very satisfactory gains. a classic re-partitioner.

it also stimulates d1 and d2 receptors, which is a very nice mental
benefit. but it's hard enough of an anabolic supplement to require
PCT. i haven't heard enough recommendations for tribulus terrestris
(gokharu or puncture vine), but trib seems to work well as a
transition to natural (i.e. endogenous) LH production, which leads to
endogenous test secretion.
--
"... the street term for it would be 'Byxmyndig' *legal to get in
pants* (it's true)" - Dukeman, in AGHL