Re: Disk brakes or V-brakes ?

Werehatrack said:

Quoted message said:

2005 world mountain bike champions in the mens pro xc, womans xc &
under 23xc all won using V-brakes & NOT disks. All won on hardtails.
Hmmmmm......

Do the rules for those classes permit discs and/or dual suspension?

Sure but I'll bet these racers opt for simplicity, lighter weight. If
the course is rocky or muddy, 'maybe' a disc setup, maybe not.

Luddites aren't the only ones that see discs, in most applications, an
expensive, complicated answer to a simple question. For the very few
times somebody 'may' ride in the deep mud, or the infrequent sidewall
wearout 'issue', a hydraulic disc just isn't worth it.....but scores
'many' coffee shop or parking lot points with their riding buddies.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Luddites aren't the only ones that see discs, in most applications, an
expensive, complicated answer to a simple question. For the very few
times somebody 'may' ride in the deep mud, or the infrequent sidewall

You want to move over here. Oh to only ride in mud a few times 🙁

--
Arthur Clune

I wonder if Ned Ludds' arguments against the Jaquard Loom were any more
substantive? Well, actually I don't 'cause I know what they were and that
history ignored his 'Luddism' too.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

Quoted message said:

2005 world mountain bike champions in the mens pro xc, womans xc &
under 23xc all won using V-brakes & NOT disks. All won on hardtails.
Hmmmmm......

Do the rules for those classes permit discs and/or dual suspension?

Sure but I'll bet these racers opt for simplicity, lighter weight. If
the course is rocky or muddy, 'maybe' a disc setup, maybe not.

Luddites aren't the only ones that see discs, in most applications, an
expensive, complicated answer to a simple question. For the very few
times somebody 'may' ride in the deep mud, or the infrequent sidewall
wearout 'issue', a hydraulic disc just isn't worth it.....but scores
'many' coffee shop or parking lot points with their riding buddies.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Werehatrack said:

Quoted message said:

2005 world mountain bike champions in the mens pro xc, womans xc &
under 23xc all won using V-brakes & NOT disks. All won on hardtails.
Hmmmmm......

Do the rules for those classes permit discs and/or dual suspension?

Sure but I'll bet these racers opt for simplicity, lighter weight. If
the course is rocky or muddy, 'maybe' a disc setup, maybe not.

Luddites aren't the only ones that see discs, in most applications, an
expensive, complicated answer to a simple question. For the very few
times somebody 'may' ride in the deep mud, or the infrequent sidewall
wearout 'issue', a hydraulic disc just isn't worth it.....but scores
'many' coffee shop or parking lot points with their riding buddies.

dude, when my lardy rear end goes piling into a tree because at the end
of a 3 hour "mud monster", i have no rim pad left, i switch to disk
brakes. you know how it's hard to land on the deck when the hook won't
go down? it's like that. disk brakes rock.

jim beam said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

.. you know how it's hard to land on the deck when the hook won't

Quoted message said:

go down? it's like that. disk brakes rock.

When the hook won't go down, you divert. If no divert, it's the
barricade...no middle ground on a CV. Don't really see how trapping or
not aboard a CV is related to using disc brakes.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Luddites aren't the only ones that see discs, in most applications, an
expensive, complicated answer to a simple question. For the very few
times somebody 'may' ride in the deep mud, or the infrequent sidewall
wearout 'issue', a hydraulic disc just isn't worth it.....but scores
'many' coffee shop or parking lot points with their riding buddies.

Here is my experience, YMMV:

I ride the same trail system regularly, choosing between two bikes as
my mood may dictate: a single pivot dual suspension equipped with
Avid Mechanical disc brakes, and a fully rigid single speed with Avid
v-brakes.

When I switch from the dualie to the single speed, here is what I
notice in descending order of immediate sensory reaction: 1) lack of
front suspension; 2) lack of braking modulation; 3) lack of rear
suspension; 4) lack of gears (the ss is a good 5 lbs lighter than the
dualie).

V-brakes are digital: they're either on or off. When on, they have
great stopping power. Discs, even the Avid mechs, have an incredible
range of modulation. Those who get used to them know what it is like
to butterfly tap that front brake to tweak your speed when necessary.
among other applications (mud, wet, etc., etc.) V's just ain't in the
same league. It's the difference between using a scalpel and a chain
saw.

Discs have all of the stopping power of v's and all of the modulation
of cantis, the best of both worlds. Which is why they sell; marketing
hype only goes so far.

My $0.02

--dt

Quoting Doug Huffman <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I wonder if Ned Ludds' arguments against the Jaquard Loom were any more
substantive?

Seems unlikely, since the Luddites' Ned Ludd was not a real person.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
Today is Leicesterday, August.

Peter Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2005 world mountain bike champions in the mens pro xc, womans xc &
under 23xc all won using V-brakes & NOT disks. All won on
hardtails. Hmmmmm......

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do the rules for those classes permit discs and/or dual suspension?

Quoted message said:

Sure but I'll bet these racers opt for simplicity, lighter weight.
If the course is rocky or muddy, 'maybe' a disc setup, maybe not.

Quoted message said:

Luddites aren't the only ones that see discs, in most applications,
an expensive, complicated answer to a simple question. For the very
few times somebody 'may' ride in the deep mud, or the infrequent
sidewall wear-out 'issue', a hydraulic disc just isn't worth
it.....but scores 'many' coffee shop or parking lot points with
their riding buddies.

Another way to assess practicality of discs is to see whether they are
making advances in market share. Although in the short term this may
not be foolproof, over the long haul it rises above fads. From what I
see in that respect and from my technical assessment, I believe discs
have a relatively small niche that they will most likely not exceed.

Jobst Brandt

Pete Cresswell said:

Quoted message said:

Discs have all of the stopping power of v's and all of the
modulation of cantis, the best of both worlds.

Quoted message said:

That's been my experience too.

Quoted message said:

But on the ThornRaven site, they talk about V's on something called
"Ceramic" rims.

Quoted message said:

I've seen references to ceramic rims, but always thought it was just
a rim wall durability thing. Reading ThornRaven, it sounded like it
was a modulation thing.

Yes, ceramic is a rim wear layer for greater durability that presents
another problem in that the brake heat, generated in brake pads,
cannot transfer readily to the aluminum rim to be dissipated. That
means that once hard braking begins, pad temperatures rise to
unacceptable levels for pads designed for aluminum. For that reason,
ceramic coated rims require special brake pads that don't work well on
aluminum rims.

Jobst Brandt

Per Doug Taylor:

Quoted message said:

Discs have all of the stopping power of v's and all of the modulation
of cantis, the best of both worlds.

That's been my experience too.

But on the ThornRaven site, they talk about V's on something called "Ceramic"
rims.

I've seen references to ceramic rims, but always thought it was just a rim wall
durability thing. Reading ThornRaven, it sounded like it was a modulation
thing.

Anybody have experience?
--
PeteCresswell

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Another way to assess practicality of discs is to see whether they are
making advances in market share. Although in the short term this may
not be foolproof, over the long haul it rises above fads. From what I
see in that respect and from my technical assessment, I believe discs
have a relatively small niche that they will most likely not exceed.

Well, for mountain bikes, almost all new bikes have discs. There are
also a number of new suspension forks that don't come with cantilever
mounts. Discs have taken over in the mtb world.

--
Mike DeMicco <[email hidden]>

Mike DeMicco said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Another way to assess practicality of discs is to see whether they are
making advances in market share. Although in the short term this may
not be foolproof, over the long haul it rises above fads. From what I
see in that respect and from my technical assessment, I believe discs
have a relatively small niche that they will most likely not exceed.

Well, for mountain bikes, almost all new bikes have discs. There are
also a number of new suspension forks that don't come with cantilever
mounts. Discs have taken over in the mtb world.

Is this why when I went to my LBS and asked for Kool Stop cantilever
brake pads the sales dude gave me a funny look and handed me a pair of
threaded Ritchey pads? He had to be corrected by an older, wiser mechanic.

--
Dave T.
Remove "slu" to reply

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

jim beam said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

. you know how it's hard to land on the deck when the hook won't

Quoted message said:

go down? it's like that. disk brakes rock.

When the hook won't go down, you divert. If no divert, it's the
barricade...no middle ground on a CV. Don't really see how trapping or
not aboard a CV is related to using disc brakes.

well, if we're talking advantages of disk over v, which we were, with
the disks, the hook will always come down. with v's at the end of a
long muddy ride, your only trap is the trees. and that's not always too
much fun.

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

>2005 world mountain bike champions in the mens pro xc, womans xc &
>under 23xc all won using V-brakes & NOT disks. All won on
>hardtails. Hmmmmm......

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do the rules for those classes permit discs and/or dual suspension?

Quoted message said:

Sure but I'll bet these racers opt for simplicity, lighter weight.
If the course is rocky or muddy, 'maybe' a disc setup, maybe not.

Quoted message said:

Luddites aren't the only ones that see discs, in most applications,
an expensive, complicated answer to a simple question. For the very
few times somebody 'may' ride in the deep mud, or the infrequent
sidewall wear-out 'issue', a hydraulic disc just isn't worth
it.....but scores 'many' coffee shop or parking lot points with
their riding buddies.

Another way to assess practicality of discs is to see whether they are
making advances in market share. Although in the short term this may
not be foolproof, over the long haul it rises above fads. From what I
see in that respect and from my technical assessment, I believe discs
have a relatively small niche that they will most likely not exceed.

Jobst Brandt

hmmm, seems you've not been into any bike shops lately... but why break
the habit of a lifetime - that of expressing opinion on a subject you've
not bothered to research.

Quoted message said:

Another way to assess practicality of discs is to see whether they are
making advances in market share. Although in the short term this may
not be foolproof, over the long haul it rises above fads. From what I
see in that respect and from my technical assessment, I believe discs
have a relatively small niche that they will most likely not exceed.

Other than "style", you're right. Never underestimate the power of
"style" to get people to buy stuff they don't need...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Dave T said:

Is this why when I went to my LBS and asked for Kool Stop cantilever
brake pads the sales dude gave me a funny look and handed me a pair of
threaded Ritchey pads? He had to be corrected by an older, wiser mechanic.

Aren't Ritchey pads actually made by Kool Stop?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Cycling is an industry. As in any industry cash flow is the goal! I
remember a stagnant time in the late 80's when every bike shop was
pushing time trial bikes & skin suits. Funny bikes like those being
used in the TDF TTT. Those things sold like hot cakes. They kept the
bike shops in business.

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 19:40:38 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Another way to assess practicality of discs is to see whether they are
making advances in market share. Although in the short term this may
not be foolproof, over the long haul it rises above fads. From what I
see in that respect and from my technical assessment, I believe discs
have a relatively small niche that they will most likely not exceed.

Other than "style", you're right. Never underestimate the power of
"style" to get people to buy stuff they don't need...

Also, now that all $100 MTBs are fully suspended, the presence or absence
of discs becomes the distinguishing feature for the higher end models.

The vast majority of the public does not have the time to educate
themselves fully on all given purchases. If they're buying a computer,
bigger numbers rock da hizzouse -- a Celeron 2.8 is clearly much better
than an AMD 64 at 2.5, right? And a Radeon 9600 with 512 MB must be so
much faster than a 9800 with a mere 128 MB, right? (wrong). If they're
buying a bike, suspension elements look cool, discs look cool. They must
be better.

Jasper

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 15:08:48 -0600, Dave T <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mike DeMicco said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Another way to assess practicality of discs is to see whether they are
making advances in market share. Although in the short term this may
not be foolproof, over the long haul it rises above fads. From what I
see in that respect and from my technical assessment, I believe discs
have a relatively small niche that they will most likely not exceed.

Well, for mountain bikes, almost all new bikes have discs. There are
also a number of new suspension forks that don't come with cantilever
mounts. Discs have taken over in the mtb world.

Is this why when I went to my LBS and asked for Kool Stop cantilever
brake pads the sales dude gave me a funny look and handed me a pair of
threaded Ritchey pads? He had to be corrected by an older, wiser mechanic.

No, that's just the minimum-wage effect in action. When you hire from
the bottom of the neuron pool, experience not only doesn't come with
the package, it isn't even easily installed.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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